Jesus will save you if you.... ???

Lamb said:

The separation is because the topic of the thread is Jesus will save you if you...

Why keep inserting yourself back into the equation when Jesus is the one who saves us?

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Catholics know that Jesus alone saves them. His grace initiates, sustains, and completes my salvation. Even my faith, repentance, and obedience are impossible without His grace. I do not act by my own strength—any effort I make is itself a work of grace in me. I simply cooperate, like clay responding to the potter’s touch.

Analogy: It’s like a vine bearing fruit—those grapes don’t grow because the branch tries hard. They grow because the branch remains connected to the vine, receiving life through it. My effort is not self-generated; it's the visible result of invisible grace

Lamb said:

The separation is because the topic of the thread is Jesus will save you if you...

Why keep inserting yourself back into the equation when Jesus is the one who saves us?



You keep insisting about talking about the walk of the faithful (you know, those who are bound for eternal life)... So here are some verses showing that the Holy Spirit, who dwells within us is the one who is leading us to do what He has planned for us to do:

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Ephesians 1:13-14
...were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance ...


Isaiah 26:12
Lord, You will establish peace for us,since You have also performed for us all our works.

Hebrews 13:20-211
...equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness,

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Isaiah 41:10
...for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

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You did it again. I asked you a couple questions and you wont answer them, this was my response instead of a clear answer.

Yeaah, you're an open book alright, lol. Have a good day.

Lamb said:

What are your thoughts on churches that preach that Jesus will only save you if YOU do something, pray something, give something, etc...?

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They are intentionally or tacitly litigious. Yes God still saves in these settings, but mans laws do more to obscure the message and the work of God for all men.

Lamb said:

Could you clarify what you mean by "yes God still saves in these settings"? Do you think that there are things man has to do for salvation (justification)? You're marked as Lutheran, so I would think your answer would be no, but I'm curious what you believe.

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Yes, I'm Lutheran. Thank you for your reply!
Salvation doesn't turn on man's correct understanding of what the message is. If that were true, then infants and toddlers and of the like, couldn't be saved. People can import baggage onto the message yet God can still save them with their less than clear rendering of what God has done for them. Eg. Making a public confession of faith to be saved.

Lamb said:

I think I understand what you're saying in that despite what men may think, God will save them because salvation is by grace through faith, not by works.

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Yes. I referred to what you wrote as the very good shorthand.

Ok let's approach this differently. now we all know and agree that works have nothing to do with Salvation, right? it is a free gift. That said,

what are works for anyway? Why would anybody want to do works for the Lord?

Jeremiah 17:10
10 But I, the Lord, search all hearts
and examine secret motives.
I give all people their due rewards,
according to what their actions deserve.”.../NLT

Works are actions correct? So does this mean that if we do do works for the Lord, that we will be rewarded for it?

Lamb said:

Our neighbors need our good works!

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That's right! So go across the street to that real old lady's house and cut her grass for her for free.

Matthew 25:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal..../KJV

Edward429451 said:

Ok let's approach this differently. now we all know and agree that works have nothing to do with Salvation, right? it is a free gift. That said,

what are works for anyway? Why would anybody want to do works for the Lord?

Jeremiah 17:10
10 But I, the Lord, search all hearts
and examine secret motives.
I give all people their due rewards,
according to what their actions deserve.”.../NLT

Works are actions correct? So does this mean that if we do do works for the Lord, that we will be rewarded for it?

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Right or wrong, for me I'm a bit uncomfortable with the notion of this being viewed or appreciated as a transactional understanding. I'm not sure, if you intended that, but in the very least it's on the horizon.
Here's a note that seems worth mentioning.
The reform will look to the law as motivation to do good works. This is not how Lutheranism sees the function of the law.
Thanks for your reply.

Lamb said:

Exactly, the new adam created in us will do good works because our neighbors need them, not to have any personal gain from it.

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I sense that you Lutherans may be being short sighted about this. I don't do good works for gain, my heart is on my obedience to the Lord.

You Lutherans seems like you wont answer certain questions, so unless you're willing to answer questions, perhaps it would be better if you dont respond to me?

Edward429451 said:

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal..../KJV

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I'll prove it. I know, I have not asked you this before, but I am asking you now. Will Lutherans answer directly or go off on a tangent and avoid the question and like that?

Anyway, on to the question. We're discussing good works and if we should do them. Now seeing that scripture says, hey when did we do that for you Lord? And the Lord says, when you do it for another, it is doing it for me....

Then Jesus Makes another comment about those who do and those who dont do good works to help people out...and Jesus said they will go into eternal punishment, and the righteous (which I assume is the people who do do good works)....
What does mean by this last statement? WHat does it mean.

I'm trying to see your Lutheran perspective and from what you say, this statement seems to create a problem with. Is it just me? WHat does that mean?

And @Lamb...

Lamb said:

Exactly, the new adam created in us will do good works because our neighbors need them, not to have any personal gain from it.

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So it is not us that do good works for other people, but Jesus Himself does it through us, just makes it happen?
So if the least that you do for another person is like doing it for Jesus Himself....then, what your saying, is that Jesus will do it Himself, for Himself. We have nothing to do with it?

So you didn't cut your neighbors grass. Did Jesus come and do it for Himself?

Edward429451 said:

That's right! So go across the street to that real old lady's house and cut her grass for her for free.

Matthew 25:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal..../KJV

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This is pretty much summed up in Matthew 7:12 “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.", is it not?

Frankj said:

This is pretty much summed up in Matthew 7:12 “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.", is it not?

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I would say so. Yep.

Frankj said:

That's a good question, how to evaluate it is going to be very POV dependent.

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Agreed.

Frankj said:

For me it usually boils down to the fruit of the tree thing with the lives of the congregation being the fruit of the teaching of the Church in question.

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I suppose that's one way to look at it, but generally speaking, when we look at 'knowing them by their fruit,' we're talking about the fruit of false prophets, as I understand things.

Frankj said:

How do the lives of the Congregation differ from the lives of the seculars around them?

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I think on one level or another we're all probably guilty of making these types of evaluations.

Frankj said:

Do they have strong families and purity in marriage or do they mirror the secular world in things like divorce and remarriage, adultery and fornication with sexual relations starting in teenage years and having no relation to marriage, do they send their children to private Christian schools to be raised up in the way they should go or to public schools where they are taught every abomination listed in the Bible and encouraged, even sometimes required, to practice them, etc.. etc., etc.

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Sinners sin. I suspect in most church settings the statistical norms for the kinds of concerns you list are on par with secular society. Seeking an exclusive church is possible, but I find that effort a bit myopic or misdirected. We again probably make these things part of our evaluation process even if only on a subconscious level. I do however believe that most of us are conscious of it.

Frankj said:

For the most part, this is how I see things and how I evaluate a church and its teachings above everything else.

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Okay. Thank you.

Frankj said:

But that's my part of the elephant, others will be touching other parts and think differently.

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Yep, so true.

Frankj said:

May the Lord bless and guide all of us this day.

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Thank you and to you as well!

Lamb said:

What are your thoughts on churches that preach that Jesus will only save you if YOU do something, pray something, give something, etc...?

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Greetings, Lamb! I've been a longtime lurker here—this will be my first post.

After studying and looking at different perspectives, I have come to the conclusion that you don't have to do anything for Jesus to save you. That includes observance of the law and doing good deeds. I will even go a bit further and say that it is not even a person's free will act of faith that will activate God's ability to save a person based on meeting that condition.

I'll also add that after a person is saved, it is inevitable that they will do good works because it is the Holy Spirit that guides the vessel of honor.

Lanman87 said:

The only thing we MUST do is believe/have faith.

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I believe we agree but to clarify I ask, is this faith is passively received?

Lanman87 said:

My thoughts on churches who preach believe/faith plus something is that they don't understand the gospel of grace and have created a type of law that must be followed in order to find forgiveness or please God.

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This seems accurate from my perspective too.

Lanman87 said:

I say that meaning that faith isn't just intellectual assent. Faith is a miraculous gift of God that changes a persons heart to love God and others in a way humans aren't capable of loving without the gift of the Holy Spirit, which then changes the persons actions so they act on the love God has given them.

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While true, I believe fail at this. Eg. We truly fail to love God or man.

jswauto said:

The Bible is pretty clear on this!

John 14:

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Romans 11:

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Romans 10:

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 16:

31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

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To be clear, you're not asserting Romans 10 as a formula or means to salvation, right?

As near as I can tell, God asks four things of man.
To humble ourselves.
Pray.
Seek His Face.
Turn from our wicked ways.

Other things are a given, right? Like, Obey, be a doer of the word and apply it to our lives and so forth.