Jesus will save you if you.... ???

[Frankj]

Luke 6:

37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Something that seems simple on the surface and easy to understand, but which, when meditating on its deeper meanings, is an extremely expansive thing that few can actually fully grasp.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is how I've always understood it, but doesn't this make forgiveness a transactional thing, contingent on your doing certain things, such as forgiving others, in return?

Well, it is what Jesus said, I do not think it is a transaction, but it is a call to live a life like his and that is what being saved is about, no?

 

[Frankj]

Well, it is what Jesus said, I do not think it is a transaction, but it is a call to live a life like his and that is what being saved is about, no?

I suppose whether or not it is a transaction is dependent on what the nature of a transaction is considered to be, but it definitely does set terms for forgiveness.

And I agree that it is a call to live a life like his, something we should strive for in all aspects of our lives if we are saved. Brings Thomas à Kempis to mind, I wonder why it is that we no longer seem to have men like this in the modern Church (be it Catholic or Protestant).

 

[Lamb]

Well, it is what Jesus said, I do not think it is a transaction, but it is a call to live a life like his and that is what being saved is about, no?

Our identity as Christians calls for us to live like little Christs, yet we will fail because we're not perfect. So, have you forgiven everyone the way the Lord demands in the Law? I know that I haven't, but what's amazing is that the sin where I can't forgive perfectly was placed on the cross when Jesus died for me. All my failures were nailed to the cross and I'm forgiven.

 

[Edward429451]

Our identity as Christians calls for us to live like little Christs, yet we will fail because we're not perfect. So, have you forgiven everyone the way the Lord demands in the Law? I know that I haven't, but what's amazing is that the sin where I can't forgive perfectly was placed on the cross when Jesus died for me. All my failures were nailed to the cross and I'm forgiven.

But Jesus said, Be Ye Holy, even as I am Holy. you said you still hold unforgiveness in your heart for someone. What about where it says, if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will I forgive you? Forgive me, but then you sort of toss out a blanket statement that, it's ok though because Jesus knows that you're not perfect. So you have a Hall Pass to hold unforgiveness in your heart for someone? Don't be too hasty!

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses..../KJV

In Matthew above, we see a very ominous passage. As a Christian myself, I dont like the idea that Jesus wont forgive us if we don't forgive others. Why doesn't Matthew 6:15 apply to you? Because what they did to you was so heinous that that's one of the things that people don't get forgiveness for? That could very well be a hard thing for you to be able to forgive them for.
(So, why try?)

I myself had a person who was very close to me do something very bad to me. Something big. I knew I am supposed to forgive them in my heart. I did not feel forgiveness for them in my heart. But if I don't forgive them, then the Lord wont forgive me! What to do?

So I prayed about it and told the Lord my dilemma, and he impressed upon me that I was supposed to forgive them. Hmm. Ok I know what, I will make it an act of my will to forgive that person, and so I spoke those words in prayer.
So, Lord I don't feel it, but as an act of my will in obedience to you, I do forgive them da da da, Amen. And I still didn't feel forgiveness in my heart for the person. So I prayed that prayer every day, still nothing. I could feel my unforgiveness in my heart, so I knew the Lord could see it and I was worried about it.

I kept praying it every day and after Idk, 2 weeks or a month? One day I began to think about if I would be able to do this or not, and it became apparent that I do feel forgiveness in my heart for them. (That was a good day!). I guess I just prayed it through.

And the Lord taught me about bitterness and forgiveness. When we allow a seed of bitterness to remain in our heart, then it will grow into a root of bitterness, then a tree! Jesus wasn't trying to give us an impossible task to be mean or make us wait, No!. It is a warning. Scripture tells us to Diligently Guard our Hearts...and leaving a seed or a root of bitterness in your heart with trying to forgive them will do more damage to you than it will them!

I felt so much better when I could feel the forgiveness! Wow it was like a weight lifted from me. And what do you think happened?

They did it again, after I had forgiven him. Say Bye Bye to that forgiveness. I was more angry than ever and wanted revenge. But if I were to hold on to that hate, it would hurt me more than them. I didn't want that so I started praying that I forgive then even as I dont feel it but it is an act of will...and it took a long time this time. I had my doubts that I could ever really forgive them again. But eventually I was able to forgive them through an act of my will. And my heart is much better now!

so IDK, do what you want to do, but Those are important scriptures to live by. But thinking that Jesus will come one day and make me perfect tra la la...may be being short sighted about it. "Diligently" guard your heart. In Revelation 16 :7 it says the Bride has made herself ready, so we have to try. You can't just accept that you'll never forgive that person. She has made herself ready by perfecting herself and heart as much as she possibly was able. So you can't accept it, you have to try to let it go.

 

[Edward429451]

So, have you forgiven everyone the way the Lord demands

Sister, He is not Demanding it. It is a warning to you from Him, in love.

 

[Frankj]

Something for consideration: When you are an unforgiving person for the perceived wrongs of others against you and find yourself full of all sorts of little grudges and resentments against them your innermost being becomes tainted and your heart full of hatred without your even realizing it.

Until you forgive those who have wronged you, and forgive means to no longer hold anything against them, they are actually the ones in control of you, and your resentments and grudges will slowly but continually grow until they dominate you, with a heart full of hatred being at the core of your being instead of the heart filled with love that Jesus would want us to have.

Does this unforgiveness bring you closer to God in your life in Christ or stand in the way of becoming closer to him?

So ask yourself, is it worthwhile to seek out the unforgiveness that lies deeply buried within you, unforgiveness you may not even be aware of, and fully and unconditionally forgive so that you can have room in your heart and your life for him to grow within you?

As I said, just something to think about, a question to answer only to yourself.

 

[Lamb]

Sister, He is not Demanding it. It is a warning to you from Him, in love.

Jesus saves me not because I can do or don't do things. He died on the cross for me.

 

[Edward429451]

Jesus saves me not because I can do or don't do things. He died on the cross for me.

So all those scriptures mean nothing to you?

Does the fact that Jesus died on the cross for you take away the instruction to forgive others or you will not be forgiven?

Why doesn't that scripture apply to you?

You seem to hold to the position of since you not perfect and cant do it anyway, cant win dont try? Yes Sister, Jesus knows you will fail. This is not performance based Salvation, but you can't ethically demand that you be saved even when you didn't try, because Jesus died on the cross for me. I don't think it is wise to hold no accountability for oneself.

He said forgive them or you wont be forgiven. So even though you may fail (at first) it does not absolve you from making an effort to try. You have to make effort. The Lord doesn't look at your performance but He does look at your heart and your intentions and if your intentions are to, oh well I'll just wait and Jesus will come make me perfect some day, and sit down and not try to guard your heart.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Don't you obey the Lord? He said, Pray unceasingly. He said, study to show thyself approved. Humble your souls by fasting, Forgive others...

And you say. nope not for you, not going to forgive the person, wont even try...That's rebellion. I'd be too scared to do that. Forgive others or you wont be forgiven is not a suggestion. You can't embrace the hatred in your heart or your heart will get worse.

 

[jswauto]

Something that seems simple on the surface and easy to understand, but which, when meditating on its deeper meanings, is an extremely expansive thing that few can actually fully grasp.

Why are you living in the past?

Have you been asked that question or heard that reference? It is to say: Lest you let go of your unforgiveness, you cannot move forward.
Have you been attacked by fear, worry, anxiety? It is the hardest to overcome. Just overwhelming, non-stop agonizing fears.

But yet letting go of that unforgiveness can be near impossible and way harder than building faith to overcome recurrent fears.
Just like Edward429451 listed in Post 25. there is hope in the Lord!

Call upon the Name of the Lord in all these situations
Consciously forgive that person or situation
Pray the Love of Christ over that person
Rebuke and cast out demons and curses of unforgiveness
When retribution is on your mind, reaffirm: Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. Heb 10:30

When you do these things apply these principals:

Be methodical
Use organized planning
Apply full faith for results
Use aggressiveness in your application
Be persistent, nonexaustive
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

 

[Lamb]

So all those scriptures mean nothing to you?

Does the fact that Jesus died on the cross for you take away the instruction to forgive others or you will not be forgiven?

Why doesn't that scripture apply to you?

You seem to hold to the position of since you not perfect and cant do it anyway, cant win dont try? Yes Sister, Jesus knows you will fail. This is not performance based Salvation, but you can't ethically demand that you be saved even when you didn't try, because Jesus died on the cross for me. I don't think it is wise to hold no accountability for oneself.

He said forgive them or you wont be forgiven. So even though you may fail (at first) it does not absolve you from making an effort to try. You have to make effort. The Lord doesn't look at your performance but He does look at your heart and your intentions and if your intentions are to, oh well I'll just wait and Jesus will come make me perfect some day, and sit down and not try to guard your heart.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Don't you obey the Lord? He said, Pray unceasingly. He said, study to show thyself approved. Humble your souls by fasting, Forgive others...

And you say. nope not for you, not going to forgive the person, wont even try...That's rebellion. I'd be too scared to do that. Forgive others or you wont be forgiven is not a suggestion. You can't embrace the hatred in your heart or your heart will get worse.

The question of the thread is "Jesus will save you if you...."

The scripture that says that I have to do something is Law, and no one but Jesus could fulfill the law perfectly. It's why God had to come to earth in the form of man, live the perfectly obedient life required and then die on the cross in our place.

You see, I don't try to save myself, because Jesus saves me. I'm saved by grace through faith.

Now, whether or not I try to forgive someone isn't going to contribute to my salvation at all. That's the entire point of this thread, to point to Jesus as our salvation and that we can't do things or not do things in order to get it.

 

[Edward429451]

The question of the thread is "Jesus will save you if you...."

The scripture that says that I have to do something is Law, and no one but Jesus could fulfill the law perfectly. It's why God had to come to earth in the form of man, live the perfectly obedient life required and then die on the cross in our place.

You see, I don't try to save myself, because Jesus saves me. I'm saved by grace through faith.

Now, whether or not I try to forgive someone isn't going to contribute to my salvation at all. That's the entire point of this thread, to point to Jesus as our salvation and that we can't do things or not do things in order to get it.

Spoken like a true Fe-male. No accountability. Good luck with that.

 

[Edward429451]

The question of the thread is "Jesus will save you if you...."

The scripture that says that I have to do something is Law, and no one but Jesus could fulfill the law perfectly. It's why God had to come to earth in the form of man, live the perfectly obedient life required and then die on the cross in our place.

You see, I don't try to save myself, because Jesus saves me. I'm saved by grace through faith.

Now, whether or not I try to forgive someone isn't going to contribute to my salvation at all. That's the entire point of this thread, to point to Jesus as our salvation and that we can't do things or not do things in order to get it.

Matthew 6:
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.../KJV

I'm trying to understand your point. These verses in Matthew have nothing to do with your salvation like you say...so, who are the people who these verses are speaking to? Can you tell me that?

 

[Lamb]

Spoken like a true Fe-male. No accountability. Good luck with that.

Please don't be condescending toward me.

Matthew 6:
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.../KJV

I'm trying to understand your point. These verses in Matthew have nothing to do with your salvation like you say...so, who are the people who these verses are speaking to? Can you tell me that?

If it's something I need to do...it's the Law and I can't fully do it. That's why Jesus had to come die for us.

What else do you think YOU need to do in order to have salvation? Why do you think Jesus isn't enough?

This sermon will help:

Forgive Us Our Trespasses As We Forgive Those Who Trespass Against Us

Trinity 22 Matthew 18: 21-35 November 8, 2020 “ With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high?” writes the Prophet Micah in chapter 6, demonstrating the...

www.trinitylutheranottumwa.com

 

[Frankj]

Why are you living in the past?

Have you been asked that question or heard that reference? It is to say: Lest you let go of your unforgiveness, you cannot move forward.
Have you been attacked by fear, worry, anxiety? It is the hardest to overcome. Just overwhelming, non-stop agonizing fears.

But yet letting go of that unforgiveness can be near impossible and way harder than building faith to overcome recurrent fears.
Just like Edward429451 listed in Post 25. there is hope in the Lord!

Call upon the Name of the Lord in all these situations
Consciously forgive that person or situation
Pray the Love of Christ over that person
Rebuke and cast out demons and curses of unforgiveness

When you do these things apply these principals:

Be methodical
Use organized planning
Apply full faith for results
Use aggressiveness in your application
Be persistent, nonexaustive
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

I have no idea what you're trying to say, or ask, in relation to my post.

Could you try wording it differently or otherwise explain what you mean? I seem to be having difficulty relating your post to mine.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Our identity as Christians calls for us to live like little Christs, yet we will fail because we're not perfect. So, have you forgiven everyone the way the Lord demands in the Law? I know that I haven't, but what's amazing is that the sin where I can't forgive perfectly was placed on the cross when Jesus died for me. All my failures were nailed to the cross and I'm forgiven.

I agree that we (meaning the majority of Christians) are most unlikely to forgive "all who wrong us", in the same way that Jesus forgives us (meaning all Christians), and that is a problem for us (meaning the majority of Christians) so we (meaning all Christians) depend on the mercy of God rather than rely on our (meaning all Christians) performance of the duties we're (meaning all Christians) call to do. And there is purgatory for purging flaws of character (not for forgiving sins, all sins are forgiven if one is in purgatory) to actually make us (meaning the majority of Christians) good. I think I have packed a bit in this ... I'd explain but is it needed?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I suppose whether or not it is a transaction is dependent on what the nature of a transaction is considered to be, but it definitely does set terms for forgiveness.

And I agree that it is a call to live a life like his, something we should strive for in all aspects of our lives if we are saved. Brings Thomas à Kempis to mind, I wonder why it is that we no longer seem to have men like this in the modern Church (be it Catholic or Protestant).

I think they seem to be missing because so many have come to pay "lip service alone" to following Jesus; because without making a really serious attempt to follow Jesus the easy way of "once saved always saved" misleads Christians.

 

[Lamb]

I agree that we (meaning the majority of Christians) are most unlikely to forgive "all who wrong us", in the same way that Jesus forgives us (meaning all Christians), and that is a problem for us (meaning the majority of Christians) so we (meaning all Christians) depend on the mercy of God rather than rely on our (meaning all Christians) performance of the duties we're (meaning all Christians) call to do. And there is purgatory for purging flaws of character (not for forgiving sins, all sins are forgiven if one is in purgatory) to actually make us (meaning the majority of Christians) good. I think I have packed a bit in this ... I'd explain but is it needed?

You know I don't believe in purgatory...what I do believe is that Jesus died for all of our sins...even the one when we haven't fully forgiven someone. Thanks be to God we have a Savior!

Now that's not to say we shouldn't be forgiving people, but it's not accounted to us toward salvation since Jesus won that for us.

 

[Edward429451]

If it's something I need to do...it's the Law and I can't fully do it. That's why Jesus had to come die for us.

So you do understand it. So is your last sentence here a euphemism for, you refuse to do that? I think perhaps.

I don't think that's a good idea. In Matthew 18:21-35 is the parable of the Unmerciful servant. Is that a warning to us? You indeed are correct that that's why Jesus had to come and die for us. But did He have to come and die for you because you refuse to forgive your fellow servant? Matthew 18:34-35 says no, that makes God angry.

What else do you think YOU need to do in order to have salvation? Why do you think Jesus isn't enough?

Who said Jesus isn't enough? I didn't. The difference is, I understand that we have a part to play also. We don't go to church and say the prayer to get saved and then tada! That's it, it's a done deal, the end of it. We can't go home and sit on the couch and make extra sure that we dont do any works for the Lord! Becoming born again is the Beginning, not an end.

It's like getting hired for a good job (No Experience Necessary!) or even joining the Military. Ok your in, now go home and don't anything and reap the benefits! No Sister, you get trained. You go to boot camp. It is the beginning of something good. When Jesus was starting His Ministry on earth, what did He do? He went and got Baptized by John and then (Matthew 4:1) "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." That was Boot Camp for Jesus. Why wont you show up for boot camp/training? You can't not show up for boot camp and training. Then when you do not get paid, what will you say? That's why Jesus died for me. I'm In! I want paid! Do you think that would fly? No it wont as seen in Matthew 18.

Now even though your salvation doctrine differs from mine as a Lutheran, certainly we can agree that, anything the Lord instructs you to do, He will also equip you to do the same, right? God told Moses to bring His people out of Egypt. Moses didn't want to! Who am I for such a task. But God equipped Moses with a Rod, remember? Then God trained Moses in the use of the rod. Throw it down, smack the river with it and so forth. Training and equipment, everything he needed. What if moses had thought, I can't do that...(He did!) what if He said, I can't so I wont, the Lord Deliver me and all of us!!! (Sound familiar?). Isn't that sort of like gut punching the Drill Instructor and saying, You do it! I can't but I know you can!

That's missing the point. We have a part to play too. If in Boot camp you do not obey the DI, you get booted out! Didn't Jesus say in the last two verses of Matthew 18, He might just do the same thing. We have to Obey the Lord.

I listened to your Pastors sermon and read the article. I dont agree with him about every thing, but I do this, from your Pasors mouth!

"...
To refuse to forgive others is to reject God’s grace and to reject the faith. You cannot have faith in Christ while you refuse to forgive others. How can you believe that God has forgiven you all your sins for Christ’s sake, yet believe that God withholds forgiveness from the one who has sinned against you? Your faith in Christ compels you to forgive others.
Forgiving others is difficult, because of our own weakness and because sin hurts. When someone damages your reputation, destroys your trust, or damages your property or body, the pain lingers. Yet, the requirement for Christians to forgive shows God’s immense grace.
God requires you to forgive those who do not deserve to be forgiven, because God forgives you when you do not deserve it. That is the very point. To be forgiven means that you don’t deserve it, otherwise it wouldn’t be forgiveness! By withholding judgment and forgiving the one who sins against you, you demonstrate that God forgives you apart from you deserving it.

Ok so God told you to forgive everyone. You repeatedly state, I can't, I can't, I can't. But if God told you to do it then don't you believe that He will equip you to complete the task at hand?

Hebrews 13:
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen..../KJV

To do his will. You will be perfectly equipped and in fact are. What was done to me is usually not a forgivable offense, but I saw that God wants us to obey and so I struggled through it. I didn't know what I was doing. But I comprehended that I best obey the Lord! This obeying the Lord is a much bigger fish to fry than what he did to me. It took me awhile and all I knew is I wanted to obey so I kept praying about it.

And one day I had the peace of God come upon me about this forgiveness and I could feel it for myself. It want what did or didn't do, except it was and all I knew is I have to forgive him for what he did to me. And when I woke up not feeling like revenge feels good, or at least thinking about revenge feels good and I knew something bigger happened in all that. I let it go and it was not in my heart anymore. I had a sense of accomplishment and it felt good. It feels good to pass tests!

 

[Edward429451]

You know I don't believe in purgatory...what I do believe is that Jesus died for all of our sins...even the one when we haven't fully forgiven someone. Thanks be to God we have a Savior!

Now that's not to say we shouldn't be forgiving people, but it's not accounted to us toward salvation since Jesus won that for us.

Yes Jesus has already won the victory. So it's like the war is over. But why are people still shooting at me? they don't know it yet!
Jesus won the war. We have to Enforce the Victory until He returns with evacuation choppers to take us home.

We're still behind enemy lines! So enemies are still bound to attack us. You got attacked. Sounds like it a bad hit too. But reach past all the symbolism and realize Jesus is making demands of you. He knows how much damage it has done to your heart to retain it. You need to let it go and heal. There's bigger fish to fry than that!