what is the reasoning behind purgatory?

Cassia

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I think this scripture is the source of the reasoning behind purgatory is it not?...

Romans 14:12
So then each one of us will give an account concerning himself to God.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think, but to think so as to be sober-minded, as God has apportioned to each a measure of faith.
Romans 12:6
And having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
1 Corinthians 3:13
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.​
 

Josiah

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double post, sorry
 
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Josiah

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In ORTHODOXY (Greek Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox, etc., etc., etc.) there is a pov (NOT dogma, NOT doctrine, NOT even official teaching) that at the micosecond of death (well, less time than that), Christ somehow, mystically, changes us - so that we are pure (and thus may enter heaven - THAT'S the presumption, that's needed). This is ALTOGETHER Christ's doing, Christ's miracle, involving NOTHING from anyone or anything, HE does it - in less than a microsecond, as a part of His salvic work. Now since the EOC doesn't hold that people are fundamentally sinful (nothing like the western view of original sin or total depravity) this really isn't a major thing, but yes..... since only the pure can enter heaven, and since no one dies that way, Christ must do something for them as he takes them by the hand and walks them into Paradise..... All this is just belief, not dogma or doctrine, and certainly not developed. Always related as one of the MYSTERIES. There is no doctrine of Purgatory in the East (or any other denomination besides the singular, individual RCC), but there is this common "root". I might add, that while all this is NON-dogmatic in the East, it is also varied. And is often spoken of in the context of the Eastern veiw of Theosis, not our western view of justification- so it's not even really the same subject or issue.


In CATHOLICISM (western Christianity, very much on a different path since almost the beginning) this got "developed." (My Greek Orthodox friend, "The Roman Church is UNABLE to leave well enough alone but INSISTS on messing it up and dividing Christianity over it"). The Western, Roman Catholic "Scholastics" have had a "field day" for CENTURIES, theorizing endlessly, applying all kinds of secular philosophies, speculating this and speculating that, wondering further and further away from Scripture, Tradition and Orthodoxy.... more and more into an evolving denominational dogma. I think it was made dogma in 1870 (maybe my memory is failing me there). The very first concepts of this developed in the early 11th Century and this was one of the things the East condemned Catholicism for, one of the reasons for the huge "split" in 1054. But the RCC had only just BEGUN to spin this!!!! The Council of Florence in the 15th Century nailed the coffin on this, denouncing the Orthodox view and proclaimed a much more developed Roman Catholic view (although not yet dogma).

In modern CATHOLICISM (just that one, individual denomination) there is still that "Christ purifies" idea but extended FAR beyond anything else. It has no clear basis in Scripture, Tradition or any of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. And rather than being a part of the MIRACLE of justification, it has been twisted into part of the Roman Catholic concept of soteriology. Here's how our Catholic teachers explained it (again, without ANY references to ANY Scripture, any Tradition, any Council). God STARTS a long, long, long, long, hard PROCESS...... he GIVES grace at Baptism. "Grace" is divine "gas", divine enabling, the "gas" God puts in your tank so that YOU can get YOURSELF where YOU need to be." But you gotta DO good stuff with that grace! IF you do (well enough anyway.... and no one has ANY CLUE what "good enough" is), then God rewards you with more "grace" (another sqirt gas in your tank) and then you gotta DO good enough with that! And so on........ over the decades, you move forward (I recall an illustation about a sail boat at this point). Thing is: life isn't long enough to get the job finished (well, for many.... NO CLUE as for who or whether this includes YOU, not a clue). What then? Well, Hinduism gives you another lifetime here on Earth but the Roman Catholic Church gives you more time in Purgatory, a place to finish the job. Now, you gotta be GOOD ENOUGH by then to get in (and there's NO CLUE how good is good enough or if you are good enough) but Purgatory is only for those who will EVENTUALLY get into heaven. Now, the RCC has NO CLUE how long you get or how long you need or how long Purgatory typically is (you can pay money to the church and get it shortened but how much that actually accomplishes is irrelevant because the RCC has NO CLUE how long it is - you may still have zillions of years so taht the time you bought is worthless or you may get change on the other side, WHO KNOWS?). All this is BOTH dogma (something you MUST believe if you expect to get into heaven) BUT the emphasis seems to be that while you should be glad you get this new RC version of reincarnation, this "additional time to get it right", still it's all pretty vague..... And if you go to a Catholic funeral, the priest will ENTIRELY evade it, probably will even say the loved one IS in heaven (but if you want to give him money to shorten that person's time in Purgatory so that SOMEDAY - maybe twenty hundred zillion years in the future - that one WILL BE in heaven, well..... In practice, I don't think Catholics actually believe this (and I know they don't preach it) but it IS de fide dogma - a matter of HIGHEST certainty possible and greatest necessity possible.


Here's all the Catholic Catechism says....

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come


The compendium of 2005 simply says,

210. What is purgatory?

Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.

211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?

Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.


IF you just read the Catechism, it almost seems like the RCC is apologizing for a thousand years of disagreeing with the Eastern Orthodox Church and actually now is renouncing all those RCC dogmatic statements and declarations so different from the Eastern Orthodox Church! But it's only seeming.....



.
 
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Cassia

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Thanks Josiah, but I was asking about scriptural backing to the belief. It was the scripture that you had questioned... I'll post the reasoning behind what I had originally posted that sparked this thread.


I think this scripture is the source of the reasoning behind purgatory ...

Romans 14:12
So then each one of us will give an account concerning himself to God.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think, but to think so as to be sober-minded, as God has apportioned to each a measure of faith.
Romans 12:6
And having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
1 Corinthians 3:13
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.​

Also the reasoning behind the Judgement seat of Christ

1 Corinthians 4:5
So then do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then there will be praise to each from God.
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.​

One needs to be reborn in order to abide in the Lord because otherwise it's impossible to bear fruit. Those who bear no fruit will be cut off. Abiding in Him places one in the position of being a disciple and being a disciple places one in the position of finding themself before the judgement seat of the Lord where each of their works will become manifest.

John 15:4
Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:6-8
If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
In this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and so you will become My disciples.​

It's in bearing fruit that the divine life is expressed thereby glorifying God.

John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples;​


The main point is that rewards have nothing to do with eternity. Eternity is the one and only offer that God has made. Rewards are from Christ, the only one to whom the New Covenant is made, to those whomever He wishes according to His own standards. Peter lists the steps to maturity by moving forward from glory to glory as the mirror becomes clearer.


All of Revelation 2-3 speaks of being an overcomer and the rewards associated. That's the letter to the churches. It also lists the areas in need of change. Judging from the material I would say that those who are mature will
1. get to be involved in the age after the church age
2. those who don't overcome will have a diminished compacity in eternity (their works will have been burned)

Thoughts?
 
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Josiah

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Thanks Josiah, but I was asking about scriptural backing to the belief.

There is none. My Catholic teachers FREELY admitted that.

This is a dogma first developed in the 11th Century. Not from ANY Scripture but from the "problem" of how to deal with people not yet finished with salvation. Eventually, the RCC gave them more time.


Yes, Catholics WILL talk about the "purification" (as I noted, this DOES go way back and STILL is found in Eastern Orthodoxy - NOT a doctrine, PURELY mystery and ENTIRELY Christ's doing; a concept I would not regard as wrong). But that's not Purgatory and the RCC is NOT saying it was wrong all those many centuries and actually the Eastern Orthodox Church (which it split with in 1054 partly over this issue!) has always been right.

Catholics will also bring up a verse (popped entirely out of context) from Second Maccabees (a book it largely ignores otherwise) to say there's support for praying for the dead, but it's irrelevant and off-topic, Purgatory is not a dogma that simply says one may pray for the dead. There's nothing in Scripture that addresses this.... and I've found Catholics quickly admit this. Now, I agree - that PER SE doesn't make it wrong, it it does mean it's NOT a dogma that is claimed to be based clearly on Scripture. Or even ancient tradition or any ecumenical council (the last ended 200 years before this idea even began).

This is a dogma - unique to the modern RC Denomination - that is the result of medieval speculation and designed to help prop up developing, evolving Roman Catholic teachings (in this case, progressive and synergistic justification).

Now..... IF (as I agree it might SEEM from the latest edition of the RC Catechism) the RCC is simply declaring itself wrong and the EOC right about this whole thing.... IF the RCC had left well enough alone and just parrot what the EOC says and NOT as dogma or doctrine or even official teaching..... there would be no problem: with the East or with Protestants (well, many Protestants). And the individual RC Denomination would have no de fide Dogma of Purgatory, no indulgences, etc. MAYBE there wouldn't even have been a split in 1054 or a Reformation in 1517? Maybe....



.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I think this scripture is the source of the reasoning behind purgatory is it not?...

Romans 14:12
So then each one of us will give an account concerning himself to God.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think, but to think so as to be sober-minded, as God has apportioned to each a measure of faith.
Romans 12:6
And having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
1 Corinthians 3:13
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.​

Romans 14:12 is about the last Judgement. Romans 12:3 is about living the faith here on Earth. Romans 12:6 is about God's graces given to the faithful in this world. So none of these verses is about purgatory.

1 Corinthians 3:13 is about the works done by the faithful rather than being about the expurgation of the faithful themselves nevertheless some have referenced this verse when teaching about purgatory.
 

Cassia

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There is none. My Catholic teachers FREELY admitted that.

This is a dogma first developed in the 11th Century. Not from ANY Scripture but from the "problem" of how to deal with people not yet finished with salvation. Eventually, the RCC gave them more time.


Yes, Catholics WILL talk about the "purification" (as I noted, this DOES go way back and STILL is found in Eastern Orthodoxy - NOT a doctrine, PURELY mystery and ENTIRELY Christ's doing; a concept I would not regard as wrong). But that's not Purgatory and the RCC is NOT saying it was wrong all those many centuries and actually the Eastern Orthodox Church (which it split with in 1054 partly over this issue!) has always been right.

Catholics will also bring up a verse (popped entirely out of context) from Second Maccabees (a book it largely ignores otherwise) to say there's support for praying for the dead, but it's irrelevant and off-topic, Purgatory is not a dogma that simply says one may pray for the dead. There's nothing in Scripture that addresses this.... and I've found Catholics quickly admit this. Now, I agree - that PER SE doesn't make it wrong, it it does mean it's NOT a dogma that is claimed to be based clearly on Scripture. Or even ancient tradition or any ecumenical council (the last ended 200 years before this idea even began).

This is a dogma - unique to the modern RC Denomination - that is the result of medieval speculation and designed to help prop up developing, evolving Roman Catholic teachings (in this case, progressive and synergistic justification).

Now..... IF (as I agree it might SEEM from the latest edition of the RC Catechism) the RCC is simply declaring itself wrong and the EOC right about this whole thing.... IF the RCC had left well enough alone and just parrot what the EOC says and NOT as dogma or doctrine or even official teaching..... there would be no problem: with the East or with Protestants (well, many Protestants). And the individual RC Denomination would have no de fide Dogma of Purgatory, no indulgences, etc. MAYBE there wouldn't even have been a split in 1054 or a Reformation in 1517? Maybe....



.

No scripture references in catholicism? ok. well I guess that isn't the scripture they base their reasoning on. The rest of my post was to argue against losing salvation and to equate those verses to loss of rewards.
 

Cassia

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Romans 14:12 is about the last Judgement. Romans 12:3 is about living the faith here on Earth. Romans 12:6 is about God's graces given to the faithful in this world. So none of these verses is about purgatory.

1 Corinthians 3:13 is about the works done by the faithful rather than being about the expurgation of the faithful themselves nevertheless some have referenced this verse when teaching about purgatory.
Thank you. I agree
 

Josiah

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No scripture references in catholicism? ok. well I guess that isn't the scripture they base their reasoning on. The rest of my post was to argue against losing salvation and to equate those verses to loss of rewards.


Um.... no..... nothing I posted is even remotely related to the issue of whether one can or cannot lose faith and thus salvation.....

Um.... yes..... as virtually all Catholics I know of freely admit, there is no Scripture that teaches PURGATORY (a de fide dogma unique to just one denomination). They MAY hold that there's a verse that teaches prayers for the dead are okay, they MAY argue there are verses that imply some purification happens, but all known to me freely admit none teach anything about any place or time of "Purgatory." BUT much more to the point, they believe in the effectiveness of their works of almsgiving, Eucharistic Sacrifice, their giving of Indulgences and claim this unique, new dogma of the RCC underpins that..... some will argue that we are justified by a slow, progressive, synergistic PROCESS that probably isn't finished when we die and claim this new unique dogma of just the RCC underpins that, too. But I don't know of a Catholic who even claims this new unique de fide dogma is actually taught in Scripture or early Tradition or in any of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. It comes out medieval, Roman Catholic Scholasticism.... and was one of the reasons East and Roman church split in 1054. It MAY be that in very, very, very recent times, Catholics have backed off this (as they have the non dogma of Limbo) but not preaching it (indeed, evading it at most funerals) does not mean the RCC has declared itself wrong (or even the EOC right) about this.



Thank you.


- Josiah
 

Cassia

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Um.... no..... nothing I posted is even remotely related to the issue of whether one can or cannot lose faith and thus salvation.....

Um.... yes..... as virtually all Catholics I know of freely admit, there is no Scripture that teaches PURGATORY (a de fide dogma unique to just one denomination). They MAY hold that there's a verse that teaches prayers for the dead are okay, they MAY argue there are verses that imply some purification happens, but all known to me freely admit none teach anything about any place or time of "Purgatory." BUT much more to the point, they believe in the effectiveness of their works of almsgiving, Eucharistic Sacrifice, their giving of Indulgences and claim this unique, new dogma of the RCC underpins that..... some will argue that we are justified by a slow, progressive, synergistic PROCESS that probably isn't finished when we die and claim this new unique dogma of just the RCC underpins that, too. But I don't know of a Catholic who even claims this new unique de fide dogma is actually taught in Scripture or early Tradition or in any of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. It comes out medieval, Roman Catholic Scholasticism.... and was one of the reasons East and Roman church split in 1054. It MAY be that in very, very, very recent times, Catholics have backed off this (as they have the non dogma of Limbo) but not preaching it (indeed, evading it at most funerals) does not mean the RCC has declared itself wrong (or even the EOC right) about this.



Thank you.


- Josiah

I don't claim to be denomination savvy but what I have come to the conclusion of is that nearly all denominations don't believe in a reward system even tho God says faith depends on it
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Matt. 5:12; 16:27; 1 Cor. 3:8, 13-14; Heb. 10:35-36; and Rev. 11:18; 22:12.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I don't claim to be denomination savvy but what I have come to the conclusion of is that nearly all denominations don't believe in a reward system even tho God says faith depends on it
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Matt. 5:12; 16:27; 1 Cor. 3:8, 13-14; Heb. 10:35-36; and Rev. 11:18; 22:12.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say about purgatory.
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[SUP]604[/SUP] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[SUP]605[/SUP]

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[SUP]606[/SUP]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."[SUP]607[/SUP] From the beginning the Church has honoured the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[SUP]608[/SUP] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[SUP]609[/SUP]

604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
605 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 3:15; ⇒ 1 Pet 1:7.
606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. ⇒ Mt 12:31.
607 ⇒ 2 Macc 12:46.
608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. ⇒ Job 1:5.
 

Cassia

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....All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
....
Scripture seem to indicate that there will be loss that will not be recovered in eternity.
 

Josiah

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1 Cor 3:15;
1 Pet 1:7.
Mt 12:31.
2 Macc 12:46.
1 Cor. 4:1, 5
Job 1:5


The OP's point is whether the new, unique, de fide Dogma of the individual Roman Catholic Church of PURGATORY is taught in Scriptures. I think all can determine whether these verses specifically teach this new Dogma unique to the singular RC Denomination.


I find this curious at best since I had not one Catholic teacher that REMOTELY taught that this new, unique Dogma of the individual RC Denomination comes specifically from Scripture. They all taught that it comes from Roman Catholic "Tradition" and is a dogma that "developed" extensively over the centuries. My Greek Orthodox friend stresses how different it is than any pious opinion in the East indicating to me that my Catholic teachers were right: this is a product of medieval, developing, evolving tradition of the singular, individual RC Denomination. Now, that per se doesn't mean this new unique dogma of that one denomination is right or wrong, but all can read the verses for themselves and see they do not REMOTELY teach this new idea of the RCC and we can see that Christian Tradition doesn't teach it either but rather, just as our Catholic teachers taught, it comes only from Roman Catholic tradition (which is likely why it only exists there and nowhere else).



- Josiah
 
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Pedrito

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Josiah in 5 on Page 1 stated regarding Purgatory:
This is a dogma first developed in the 11th Century. Not from ANY Scripture but from the "problem" of how to deal with people not yet finished with salvation. Eventually, the RCC
gave them more time.

That seems to parallel salvation by works in some ways, does it not?

The idea of “people not yet finished with salvation” (however stated) is clearly based on pagan philosophy, and not on God’s Holy Revelation.

People suffering in something called Purgatory to atone for their sins (however stated) is in clear opposition to what God stated of the coming Messiah in Isaiah 53:5,6 (to present just one instance):
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


==============================================================================================

Pedrito has read that Augustine was the first of the “early” Christian philosophers (“theologians”) to champion Infant Baptism. Infants that were baptised were supposedly rescued from damnation, being eternally saved. The problem was, what happened to infants who die before being baptised? Condemning them to Hell seemed too harsh, so the concept of limbus infantum (or limbus puerorum – children's limbo) was developed.

The other problem was, if baptism washes away the sins committed before baptism, what about the sins committed afterwards? The concept of Purgatory was born. Although Josiah has brought to our attention that it was not until the 11th century that the full embracing and affirmation of that idea took hold.

That Augustine developed his ideas based on his pagan philosophical background, especially Neo-Platonism, is obvious to anyone passingly familiar with the Gospel being proclaimed by the apostles.



Continued...
 

psalms 91

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Josiah in 5 on Page 1 stated regarding Purgatory:


That seems to parallel salvation by works in some ways, does it not?

The idea of “people not yet finished with salvation” (however stated) is clearly based on pagan philosophy, and not on God’s Holy Revelation.

People suffering in something called Purgatory to atone for their sins (however stated) is in clear opposition to what God stated of the coming Messiah in Isaiah 53:5,6 (to present just one instance):
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


==============================================================================================

Pedrito has read that Augustine was the first of the “early” Christian philosophers (“theologians”) to champion Infant Baptism. Infants that were baptised were supposedly rescued from damnation, being eternally saved. The problem was, what happened to infants who die before being baptised? Condemning them to Hell seemed too harsh, so the concept of limbus infantum (or limbus puerorum – children's limbo) was developed.

The other problem was, if baptism washes away the sins committed before baptism, what about the sins committed afterwards? The concept of Purgatory was born. Although Josiah has brought to our attention that it was not until the 11th century that the full embracing and affirmation of that idea took hold.

That Augustine developed his ideas based on his pagan philosophical background, especially Neo-Platonism, is obvious to anyone passingly familiar with the Gospel being proclaimed by the apostles.



Continued...
Augistine apparently did as mucjh damage to Christianity as Constantine did. How people fell into these beliefs astounds me.
 

MoreCoffee

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Augistine apparently did as mucjh damage to Christianity as Constantine did. How people fell into these beliefs astounds me.

Have you read any of saint Augustine's works?
 

psalms 91

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Have you read any of saint Augustine's works?
No I am just going by what Josiah presented, neither of those positions are biblical
 

MoreCoffee

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No I am just going by what Josiah presented, neither of those positions are biblical

Have a look at his autobiography. It's interesting.
 

Pedrito

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...Continued from Post #14 on Page 2.

The idea that the rite of baptism washes all previous sins away, but that sins committed thereafter have to be atoned for some other way, is shown to be merely an invention of Man, a product of philosophical speculation. It is far removed from the original, simple yet profound, Gospel. It represents a shunning of God’s Holy Revelation.

It was demonstrably not part of “the faith once delivered to the saints”.

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Nonetheless, there are those who will continue to defend the idea of Purgatory to the hilt.

Unless, and until, it finally goes the way of (suffers the recent fate of) limbus infantum – limbus puerorum – children’s limbo. (Suddenly it appears that limbus infantum does not exist any more – and, lo and behold, it never did.)

If that happened to Purgatory, it would mean that the Catholic Enquiry Centre correspondence course would have to be changed yet again. (Not to mention other official documents.)

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And doesn’t the highly significant limbus infantum change mean that the Roman Catholic Church was teaching contrary to God’s truth in that respect for multiple hundreds of years? Or else that it is doing so now?

(Unless God changed His mind, and decided to suddenly and retrospectively do away with limbus infantum of His own accord, that is.) (No disrespect to God intended – terminology used to suit the situation.)
 

Albion

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And doesn’t the highly significant limbus infantum change mean that the Roman Catholic Church was teaching contrary to God’s truth in that respect for multiple hundreds of years? Or else that it is doing so now?
The usual explanation is that Limbo--although taught as God's own truth for half a millennium--was never made an official doctrine but always was a theological opinion. Purgatory, however, was the creation of a church council, so that couldn't be done if Purgatory is finally ditched as well. That appears to be why the church continues to say that there is a Purgatory while, at the same time, completely altering the definition.
 
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