For Those Who Have Not Been Healed

[psalms 91]

the fear of dying is intensely ingrained in us .we hold to this earthen shell with all we have got .. but i think even more so in our day and age. most posting here have likely never "had a common cold ".. what i mean by that is fully endured the full blown effects of the common cold virus on the human body without a single paracetamol pill or other symptom alleviating substance . i tried earlier this year and i could not believe the agony my head went through ..intense sinus pains and screaming pain through the bones in my face so i could not sleep nor rest ..i endured poorly to say the least and it made me realize how much those in need in countries where they simply cannot go to the shop and buy a basic painkiller SUFFER ..they suffer unbelievably from things as seemingly minor to us as a common cold . thus im not opposed to medications where they can ease the suffering of another soul.. but i differentiate between relieving suffering .. and immediate healing . one is a kindness, the other a loving miracle . But in the realms of faith -are we willing to suffer to the point of death to see God glorified in us ...

"For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. "

Actually in the third world countries is where right now a lot ofpeople do believe in the healing power of God and get results. It is amazing how much your faith will grow when a belief in God is what you have and nothing else.

 

[psalms 91]

the fear of dying is intensely ingrained in us .we hold to this earthen shell with all we have got .. but i think even more so in our day and age. most posting here have likely never "had a common cold ".. what i mean by that is fully endured the full blown effects of the common cold virus on the human body without a single paracetamol pill or other symptom alleviating substance . i tried earlier this year and i could not believe the agony my head went through ..intense sinus pains and screaming pain through the bones in my face so i could not sleep nor rest ..i endured poorly to say the least and it made me realize how much those in need in countries where they simply cannot go to the shop and buy a basic painkiller SUFFER ..they suffer unbelievably from things as seemingly minor to us as a common cold . thus im not opposed to medications where they can ease the suffering of another soul.. but i differentiate between relieving suffering .. and immediate healing . one is a kindness, the other a loving miracle . But in the realms of faith -are we willing to suffer to the point of death to see God glorified in us ...

"For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. "

Almost anyone that has been involved with faith healing has been to that point of death and knows what God can and will do. The Life and Times of John G. Lake is an excellent book I highly recommend it for anyone wanting to read about what God has done with verifible miracles by medical evidence. He was a great man of God

 

[Tigger]

Because death's timing is God's call not ours. As long as we walk this earth we should maintain the gift of health God has given us to fulfill the call on our lives that God has set before us. Remember the scripture where The apostle Paul longs to be with the Lord but Paul concluded that it was better for the others that he stay for now?

Although, I would hope most adults would have the common sense to know when to start worrying about comfort as opposed to healing.

But I wasn't talking about comfort so not sure how that applies to my post. The flow of the conversation went to if someone actually had the faith to go home to the Lord.

 

[dogs4thewin]

But I wasn't talking about comfort so not sure how that applies to my post. The flow of the conversation went to if someone actually had the faith to go home to the Lord.

When asked did people believe that going home to the Lord was THE healing and you said yes and then the poster asks why people rush to save their skins. You gave the answer that death is God's timing and we should take care of our bodies, yet that does not mean that you should just use resources that are very unlikely to work ( particularly when you know you are terminal anyway.

 

[Alithis]

Actually in the third world countries is where right now a lot ofpeople do believe in the healing power of God and get results. It is amazing how much your faith will grow when a belief in God is what you have and nothing else.

..oh yes .. that was part of my point .i want being very clear i guess haha

 

[Alithis]

Almost anyone that has been involved with faith healing has been to that point of death and knows what God can and will do. The Life and Times of John G. Lake is an excellent book I highly recommend it for anyone wanting to read about what God has done with verifible miracles by medical evidence. He was a great man of God

yes totally .. smith wigglesworth also resolved to wait for the lord to heal him of appendicitis and realized death was imminent if the lord did not heal him. the interesting thing in his account is that when some one came to pray for him.. they commanded the demon out and he immediately recovered .
the thing is ..God is fully and always able .. but do we really believe in Him ? do we believe in him in that way of abandonment to the cross ? .. i for one struggle so much to do so but i know the lord desires to teach us all to walk in such faith . so i get up again in His grace and I walk on.. i do not sit and justify my past lack of faith.but admit it for what it is ,receive his forgiveness and move on in him as he leads me . God is Good

 

[tango]

i think im hearing you right ..hope so .

but i agree . the topic of death as "healing " when healing is not received .. and then saying death is a way of receiving their reward ..???? reward for what .. for unbelief ?

ok this has been on my heart a lot recently .but the lord Jesus is the truth and he spoke truth in every meaning of the word for he is the living word of God ..

and he made this astounding statement - if you seek to save your life you will lose it (eternally) if you lose it for my name sake .. you will save it .

now everyone jumps to the conclusion that it speaks of a singular scenario -ie martyrdom ... not denying the lord to save your skin.

But look deeper wider higher ... Do we not deny him every time we run and place our faith in mans limited ability to alleviate symptoms rather than faith in God to HEAL the cause of the symptoms ?

Only if we equally deny him every day we clock in at work rather than having faith in God to PROVIDE for us.

how is it then that we think we can be so disloyal in "FAITH" and suddenly be loyal at some catastrophic scenario ? when did such strength of faith grow to be so strong ?

Why is it disloyal to use the resources God has placed at our disposal? Is it disloyal to work for a living rather than trust in God to provide? Is it disloyal to lock my front door at night rather than trust in God to protect? Is it disloyal to study the Scriptures rather than assume God will magically download whatever I need to know?

ok YES im speaking in the harsh extreme .. but when i really observe the direct words of the lord JESUS that is what i see .. i see an uncompromising TRUTH full of promise and life ..to those that would rather die then Deny him that Glory .I am greatly stirred by this .
it is an underlying reason that the anti christ is pushing medical issues as justification for ID implants and making people submit to the world by means of ingrained dependence on "the world" rather then on God . it is no accident that this is occurring .. And im more amazed at how many christians are buying into by carnal intellectual self justifying reasoning .. God says "believe " and more and more the church says .. "yes BUT" ... time to repent of unbelief .

It's easy to become too dependent on something. It's easy to come to depend on all sorts of medications (legal or otherwise) when at times we need to deal with it. It's easy to get very caught up in solving all of our own problems when sometimes we do need to step back and let God do what God wants to do. At the same time it's pointless to merely sit on our rear ends and not do anything because we're "trusting in God" to do the things we could have done for ourselves.

How do we "love the Lord our God with all our mind and with all our strength" if we don't take active steps to use the talents he gave us? How are we any different from the lazy servant who buried his one talent if we do not use the things God has entrusted to us in some useful manner?

 

[tango]

Actually in the third world countries is where right now a lot ofpeople do believe in the healing power of God and get results. It is amazing how much your faith will grow when a belief in God is what you have and nothing else.

Maybe God is working there because they don't have access to what we would call modern medicine.

If I've cut myself open I can go to the hospital and they put me back together again. If the nearest hospital that can do such a thing is far enough away that I'd die in transit, I lose options. Maybe God is merely giving people more options.

 

[tango]

Actually in the third world countries is where right now a lot ofpeople do believe in the healing power of God and get results. It is amazing how much your faith will grow when a belief in God is what you have and nothing else.

Maybe God is working there because they don't have access to what we would call modern medicine.

If I've cut myself open I can go to the hospital and they put me back together again. If the nearest hospital that can do such a thing is far enough away that I'd die in transit, I lose options. Maybe God is merely giving people more options.

 

[tango]

Do you agree that James is saying that sin will be forgiven and that healing will take place?

I think it's clear that James says sins will be forgiven and people will be healed. But since it's clear that in many cases people aren't healed we need to consider whether we are doing something wrong or whether we've misunderstood what James is describing when he talks of healing.

If sins are forgiven we are spiritually healed - I'd rather suffer now and be in paradise for eternity than be healed now and suffer for eternity. That's a large part of the reason I find so much of what is associated with places like Bethel so distasteful - I've heard so many stories of healings associated with people sent out from Bethel but nobody ever seems to mention whether the person concerned gave glory to God, repented of their sins, or anything else that's far more important than the fireworks. What good does it do someone to be healed only to die in their sin later on?

 

[Tigger]

When asked did people believe that going home to the Lord was THE healing and you said yes and then the poster asks why people rush to save their skins. You gave the answer that death is God's timing and we should take care of our bodies, yet that does not mean that you should just use resources that are very unlikely to work ( particularly when you know you are terminal anyway.

No that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying I'm am good with the Lord's will whether it's healing on this earth or to go home to the Lord. I'm afraid that if I explain further You still won't understand what I'm saying so I'll leave my statement as it is.

 

[dogs4thewin]

No that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying I'm am good with the Lord's will whether it's healing on this earth or to go home to the Lord. I'm afraid that if I explain further You still won't understand what I'm saying so I'll leave my statement as it is.

You are down with either way so to speak.

 

[Alithis]

Only if we equally deny him every day we clock in at work rather than having faith in God to PROVIDE for us.



Why is it disloyal to use the resources God has placed at our disposal? Is it disloyal to work for a living rather than trust in God to provide? Is it disloyal to lock my front door at night rather than trust in God to protect? Is it disloyal to study the Scriptures rather than assume God will magically download whatever I need to know?



It's easy to become too dependent on something. It's easy to come to depend on all sorts of medications (legal or otherwise) when at times we need to deal with it. It's easy to get very caught up in solving all of our own problems when sometimes we do need to step back and let God do what God wants to do. At the same time it's pointless to merely sit on our rear ends and not do anything because we're "trusting in God" to do the things we could have done for ourselves.

How do we "love the Lord our God with all our mind and with all our strength" if we don't take active steps to use the talents he gave us? How are we any different from the lazy servant who buried his one talent if we do not use the things God has entrusted to us in some useful manner?

all your doing is splintering the topic into ambiguity ..if you dissect what people say enough times, your left with nothing of substance .all it does is rob meaning and point .
and what are your truthfully doing ? justifying carnal reasoning ... nothing more . let us simply be honest before the lord who knows the heart.

 

[Tigger]

You are down with either way so to speak.

by being healed here and now or by being taken home to be with the Lord??? How's that?

 

[tango]

all your doing is splintering the topic into ambiguity ..if you dissect what people say enough times, your left with nothing of substance .all it does is rob meaning and point .
and what are your truthfully doing ? justifying carnal reasoning ... nothing more . let us simply be honest before the lord who knows the heart.

I'm not splintering the topic at all.

How does it make any sense to claim that visiting a human doctor is showing a lack of faith in God to heal us, and then insist that going to work doesn't represent an equal lack of faith in God to provide for us? It's absurd.

Do you have a specific counter to the points being raised against the "healing free-for-all" approach, or are you going to hide behind generic comments that say little more than "you're wrong, the end"?

I'm not justifying carnal reasoning at all. Didn't Paul call us to "test all things"? How can we test without undertaking some form of reasoning? Do you remember why Paul lauded the Bereans? It was for studying the Scriptures to test his teaching, not just blindly "having faith" in the new guy with a new message, not for deciding whether his teachings sounded good or "resonated with his spirit" (whatever that means), not for dismissing people who weren't sure with comments about their lack of faith or trying to justify carnal reasoning.

Since you seem to dislike what you call "carnal reasoning", how would you go about following the Scriptural call to "test all things", "test the spirits", and "take heed that you not be deceived"?

 

[psalms 91]

Seems to me that the only things being tested are the beliefs that some of us hold about healing and God providing. It is like a big circle that we just keep going round till like me people grow weary of it. How about you apply that testing to some other things a little closer to your own beliefs and see if we can run circles around that for a few weeks

 

[tango]

Seems to me that the only things being tested are the beliefs that some of us hold about healing and God providing. It is like a big circle that we just keep going round till like me people grow weary of it. How about you apply that testing to some other things a little closer to your own beliefs and see if we can run circles around that for a few weeks

Sure, go ahead and test my beliefs. I was rather hoping people would do just that - if we disagree on something where one of us has to be wrong we both have to consider the possibility that it might be us. I just don't see a whole lot of reasoning coming from the "God always heals" side, all I'm seeing is generic comments about lacking faith and carnal reasoning.

Can you use Scripture to back up your beliefs that God will always heal, especially in the light of Paul telling Timothy what to do for his "frequent infirmities"? It seems to me that God hadn't healed Timothy, so struggle to see why we assume we are somehow more deserving than Timothy was. But by all means let's have a discussion that looks to an objective standard to find the truth. I'm not only open to being tested but positively encourage it. So have at it, and let's dig into Scripture. To borrow a phrase (perhaps a little out of context) from Isaiah, "come, let us reason together".

 

[psalms 91]

Sure, go ahead and test my beliefs. I was rather hoping people would do just that - if we disagree on something where one of us has to be wrong we both have to consider the possibility that it might be us. I just don't see a whole lot of reasoning coming from the "God always heals" side, all I'm seeing is generic comments about lacking faith and carnal reasoning.

Can you use Scripture to back up your beliefs that God will always heal, especially in the light of Paul telling Timothy what to do for his "frequent infirmities"? It seems to me that God hadn't healed Timothy, so struggle to see why we assume we are somehow more deserving than Timothy was. But by all means let's have a discussion that looks to an objective standard to find the truth. I'm not only open to being tested but positively encourage it. So have at it, and let's dig into Scripture. To borrow a phrase (perhaps a little out of context) from Isaiah, "come, let us reason together".

I enjoy good discussion but when it comes to scripture I am well versed but lack being able to just lay my finger on it like many people so it is pointless to me to enter into a discussion with someone who knows what you are talking about but demands scripture that they probably already know. That is kind of where I see thsi discussion at and I have learned that most times the same scripture will be interpreted all sorts of ways, especially in this day and age. A good example of that is the LGBT debate which I refuse to enter into as I am clear and sure that God doesnt like it although I would get an argument from some about that.

 

[tango]

I enjoy good discussion but when it comes to scripture I am well versed but lack being able to just lay my finger on it like many people so it is pointless to me to enter into a discussion with someone who knows what you are talking about but demands scripture that they probably already know.

I'm aware of some Scriptures that are used, incorrectly in my opinion, to support the idea that God always heals. I don't see the big picture of Scripture as supporting anything of the sort. In an online discussion it's not as if you need to have everything at your fingertips. Get yourself a (free) copy of e-sword or similar and use the search functionality. That's what I do when I remember the Bible says something but can't remember the reference.

If you can use Scripture to show that the big picture is that God will always heal then please go ahead, I'm ready and willing to listen. Take your time, it's not like I'm standing in front of you drumming my fingers while you leaf through a big book trying to figure out whether the passage you want is Hesitations 5:12 or Obfuscations 12:5. It's easy to find a verse or two that can be pulled out of context to support just about any preconceived theory we can dream up but unless we're going to take the overall message of Scripture there's no point studying it at all. So certainly the position that God doesn't always heal does need to address verses like Ps 103:3 and the passage in James that you highlighted. I believe that can be addressed to explain why God doesn't always heal. Conversely, the position that God will always heal needs to address verses like 1Ti 5:23 and the fact we can see in the world around us that people aren't healed. I still see nothing other than vague comments about carnal reasoning and faith to explain this from the perspective that God does always heal.

As I've said before when Scripture appears to contradict Scripture we have to conclude either that the Bible is unreliable, or that we've misunderstood something. To consider what we've misunderstood in this particular discussion we need to consider whether the passage in James you listed is being misinterpreted to suggest that God will always heal, or why Paul didn't tell Timothy to have the elders anoint him with oil. Since there appears to be a contradiction we need to resolve the contradiction to gain a complete understanding, and comments from some that write off objections as nothing more than "carnal reasoning" or "lacking faith" do nothing to resolve the contradiction. If anything all they do is suggest that the person posting such a comment doesn't have anything constructive to add to the discussion and is effectively just putting their fingers in their ears and shouting "la la la la" over anything that disagrees with their preconceived worldview.

That is kind of where I see thsi discussion at and I have learned that most times the same scripture will be interpreted all sorts of ways, especially in this day and age. A good example of that is the LGBT debate which I refuse to enter into as I am clear and sure that God doesnt like it although I would get an argument from some about that.

I agree with you in that I believe physical homosexual acts are sinful, but I can't preach a message of "test all things" unless I'm willing to consider the possibility that my viewpoint is wrong. There clearly are some people who don't believe there is any sin in a monogamous homosexual relationship, and if they are willing to put their thinking forward in a useful and constructive manner it would seem very short-sighted not to at least consider where they are coming from. If all they want to say is "you can't help who you love" or "God made me this way" it falls flat because as a married heterosexual man God gave me a desire for women, but I don't suppose my wife would be overly impressed with "God made me this way" or "God gave me these desires" if she ever caught me in bed with another woman.

 

[Alithis]

I'm not splintering the topic at all.

now im giving you an example of dissecting a post so much it becomes buried in meaningless ambiguity of many points and many words all blurring out the straight forward truth of a matter .
which can amount to a form of lying .. asking questions which flod the heart with doubt and uncertaintly -ie .. Did god reeeally say ...?

How does it make any sense to claim that visiting a human doctor is showing a lack of faith

are there other kinds of doctors other then human ?

How does it make any sense to claim that visiting a human doctor is showing a lack of faith in God to heal us, and then insist that going to work doesn't represent an equal lack of faith in God to provide for us?

- did anyone actually say outright that going to a doctor shows a lack of faith in God i recall i said it displays whom we have the most faith in ..as it depends upon whom we call on ..man or god to save us .

It's absurd.

are you saying that having faith in God above all else is absurd ? thats absurd

Do you have a specific counter to the points being raised against the "healing free-for-all" approach,

do we need to counter the word of God who promises answer to all who ask him "believing "?

I'm not justifying carnal reasoning at all.

sounds like you are .

Didn't Paul call us to "test all things"?

in what context ,, ? if we test the lords word to see if he is faithful and true to it .. we will be healed -is he Not faithful and true to His word ?

How can we test without undertaking some form of reasoning? Do you remember why Paul lauded the Bereans? It was for studying the Scriptures to test his teaching, not just blindly "having faith" in the new guy with a new message, not for deciding whether his teachings sounded good or "resonated with his spirit" (whatever that means), not for dismissing people who weren't sure with comments about their lack of faith or trying to justify carnal reasoning.

if we have simply read the words .. and then we beleive ..how is that faith "blind " ..is there another kind of faith your on about ?

Since you seem to dislike what you call "carnal reasoning", how would you go about following the Scriptural call to "test all things", "test the spirits", and "take heed that you not be deceived"?

are you saying that if we read the words of the bible as inspired by the holy Spirit and believe them.. that we are being deceived in doing so .. but if we trust in mans words over Gods words we do well? ? ?

-this has been an example in over dissecting a post

the truth is the lord JEsus said .. what ever you ask in my name according to my will i will do it - so the questions is not ..is he wrong .. but where are we wrong if it seems we do not get what we ask for ? James says it is because we ask amiss .. he also says if we ask wavering in unbelief that we must not think we will receive anything .. and so we don't .