should people have the right to refuse to serve others

[dogs4thewin]

Problem is that there is no difference nor is there any concern for the owners beliefs or rights, it is all about being PC

Well, when an owner chooses to own a business they choose to abide by certain laws if they do not support those laws then they do not have to operate a business, but when they choose to do so then they give up some rights.

 

[psalms 91]

They should not have to choose between their beliefs and their business. This country is uopside down and someday soon it will explode

 

[Ruth]

I said only under certain circumstances. Like the person is drunk or naked.

 

[dogs4thewin]

They should not have to choose between their beliefs and their business. This country is uopside down and someday soon it will explode

upside down?

 

[psalms 91]

right is wrong and wrong is right, and the people that are getting pushed around by all this are growing weary of it

 

[dogs4thewin]

right is wrong and wrong is right, and the people that are getting pushed around by all this are growing weary of it

How can right be wrong and wrong be right?

 

[psalms 91]

Easy, the wild interpretation of the constitution, the religious being pushed around more and more and of course abortion, that is called legal and right when it is nothing more than murder. The bible says that in the end times things will be this way and it is easy to see

 

[dogs4thewin]

Easy, the wild interpretation of the constitution, the religious being pushed around more and more and of course abortion, that is called legal and right when it is nothing more than murder. The bible says that in the end times things will be this way and it is easy to see

Yeah, we had someone in our county just this week charged with killing a baby. Shot the mom in the stomach ( who also ended up dying) and kicked her out of the car because he did not believe the child was his and said that if she could not have her nobody could.

 

[psalms 91]

Yeah, we had someone in our county just this week charged with killing a baby. Shock the mom in the stomach ( who also ended up dying) and kicked her out of the car because he did not believe the child was his and said that if she could not have her nobody could.

He was charged with murder and rightly so but wehat is the difference between that and abortion?

 

[dogs4thewin]

He was charged with murder and rightly so but wehat is the difference between that and abortion?

nothing except that abortion=legal ( although Georgia happens to have some of the strictest laws on the topic, but the fact is unless and until Roe V Wade is overturned it MUST remain legal.

 

[psalms 91]

but not moral and it should be called what it is, legalized murder

 

[MarkFL]

...but what is the difference between that and abortion?

To me there is a big difference. One is a vicious act perpetrated on a pregnant woman who intended to carry the baby to term, and the other is a medical procedure performed on a woman who does not wish to carry the baby to term. Don't get me wrong, I think in most cases an abortion is a callous and selfish decision.

 

[tango]

Easy, the wild interpretation of the constitution, the religious being pushed around more and more and of course abortion, that is called legal and right when it is nothing more than murder. The bible says that in the end times things will be this way and it is easy to see

With respect, you really need more than just stating "it is murder" - whether abortion is morally equivalent to murder or having our tonsils removed depends on whether or not the unborn counts as a person or not. If the unborn child counts as a person in their own right then abortion is morally equivalent to murder; if they do not then abortion is morally no more significant than having tonsils removed or a tooth extracted.

As it stands in the eyes of the law the unborn doesn't count as a person so for anyone who does not follow God's law there is no specific restraint, beyond any moral concerns they may have as individuals, regarding abortion. We shouldn't be surprised if lost people act like, well, lost people.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Interesting. Here's a scenario. As a counselor, I will come across clients with all sorts of issues in their lives. Eventually (after I finish my degree) I will become licensed, and will adhere to a code of ethics. According to that code of ethics, I cannot ethically refuse services to anyone for a reason based on personal belief/preference. For example, if a client is referred to me, and is LGBTQ, I cannot ethically say to them "I can't see you because I'm a Christian and it goes against my beliefs". I have the "right" to say that, certainly. But ethically, I have violated the standards of my profession, and can expect that certain privileges will be taken from me, up to and including my licensure and ability to practice. I may have also violated discrimination laws, which might expose me to legal consequences. So I have a right to do as I like, but doing so may result in loss of privileges.

 

[tango]

Interesting. Here's a scenario. As a counselor, I will come across clients with all sorts of issues in their lives. Eventually (after I finish my degree) I will become licensed, and will adhere to a code of ethics. According to that code of ethics, I cannot ethically refuse services to anyone for a reason based on personal belief/preference. For example, if a client is referred to me, and is LGBTQ, I cannot ethically say to them "I can't see you because I'm a Christian and it goes against my beliefs". I have the "right" to say that, certainly. But ethically, I have violated the standards of my profession, and can expect that certain privileges will be taken from me, up to and including my licensure and ability to practice. I may have also violated discrimination laws, which might expose me to legal consequences. So I have a right to do as I like, but doing so may result in loss of privileges.

This leads into a question I really struggle with when it comes to people who do choose to refuse to provide services to specific people.

In the case of the bakers who declined to provide a cake for a gay couple I have to wonder what they were afraid of. If I take portraits of someone I'm providing a service, not a moral validation of their lifestyle. I recently shot some engagement portraits for a local couple - the deal was pretty simple in that they gave me some money and I gave them my time and expertise in exchange. Whether they are living together, sleeping together, fiddling their taxes, whatever, is none of my business.

I have to wonder whether the bakers who turned away the gay couple would interrogate a straight couple to make sure they weren't unintentionally advocating forms of sexual immorality that didn't involve homosexual activity. Somehow I doubt it.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Businesses should remember that even where there is no law refusing to serve people may well cost them their business. If word gets around that I do not serve say homosexuals because I do not support their lifestyle even if it is something like serving food then not ONLY would I lose homosexual business by default, but some heterosexuals may decide you know what I am NOT doing business with someone that has that policy and may choose to take their business elsewhere.

 

[tango]

Businesses should remember that even where there is no law refusing to serve people may well cost them their business. If word gets around that I do not serve say homosexuals because I do not support their lifestyle even if it is something like serving food then not ONLY would I lose homosexual business by default, but some heterosexuals may decide you know what I am NOT doing business with someone that has that policy and may choose to take their business elsewhere.

Very true, although I still believe the business should have the right to decline whatever business they want and face the consequences of doing so.

Much like you mention, if a business posted a sign to say "No blacks, no gays, no Jews" I'd save them the trouble of taking my money even though I'm a white heterosexual Gentile. I don't imagine they would stay in business very long with such a sign (unless they operated in a really hardcore far-right area) but if they want to cater for such a tiny proportion of the market it should be their right to do so.

 

[psalms 91]

Very true, although I still believe the business should have the right to decline whatever business they want and face the consequences of doing so.

Much like you mention, if a business posted a sign to say "No blacks, no gays, no Jews" I'd save them the trouble of taking my money even though I'm a white heterosexual Gentile. I don't imagine they would stay in business very long with such a sign (unless they operated in a really hardcore far-right area) but if they want to cater for such a tiny proportion of the market it should be their right to do so.

Exactly instead of land of the free it is now the land of the over regulated

 

[dogs4thewin]

Very true, although I still believe the business should have the right to decline whatever business they want and face the consequences of doing so.

Much like you mention, if a business posted a sign to say "No blacks, no gays, no Jews" I'd save them the trouble of taking my money even though I'm a white heterosexual Gentile. I don't imagine they would stay in business very long with such a sign (unless they operated in a really hardcore far-right area) but if they want to cater for such a tiny proportion of the market it should be their right to do so.

But if I want to stay in business; then I have to make a certain amount of profit, so that means that if I CHOOSE to make that decision I may pay a HEAVY price and I could not even sue for the results of people bad mouthing me, to a certain extent. For example, if I found out someone refused to business with a group of people well I take my business elsewhere.

 

[tango]

But if I want to stay in business; then I have to make a certain amount of profit, so that means that if I CHOOSE to make that decision I may pay a HEAVY price and I could not even sue for the results of people bad mouthing me, to a certain extent. For example, if I found out someone refused to business with a group of people well I take my business elsewhere.

Exactly. If as a business owner you believe you can make enough profit to stay in business by rejecting sweeping sections of society then you get to reject that business. If people who are in your "approved customer" groups decide to boycott you because they dislike your stance then you get to deal with that loss of profit as well. But if you think you can still survive, have at it. It's really not all that different to a business deciding to rent space heaters in Arizona during June - they are free to attempt to make a profit but may find themselves unsuccessful.