Five Reasons Why Babies Should be Baptized...

[Lamb]

In the baptism (and repentence) commanded by Peter for the remission of sins and to secure the gift of the Holy Spirit ... Yes, definitely.
In the baptism performed by Lutherans on babies that appears to comply with only some of what Peter commanded ... I have no idea.
God CAN do anything. What God CHOOSES to do, is above my pay grade (he does not consult with me before making a decision).

What makes baptism? It's God's promises in the water according to His word (water and the word). I listed the verses already here in the thread from a bible study. I can post it again if you like.

God has promised that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be received in baptism.

God has promised that the gift is for our children too.

Since the gift of the Holy Spirit is received, then faith is given to those who receive baptism.

Since the gift of the Holy Spirit is received in baptism as Acts states, then those who receive baptism are also turned to God. That's repentance. It isn't just sorrow for sins we have committed. Surely we are sinful since conception as the psalm verse states.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... That's my response to you and it won't change. ...

Interesting.

 

[Lamb]

If that is the case then whose work is it when you are convicted and still do the same sin? Does that not show free will and choice or is that also the work of the Holy Spirit?

Sorry, I did not see your post in here sooner.

When we sin we are to blame. Man often chooses to turn against God because the will is bound to sin (due to Original Sin and we still live in these sinful bodies).

When we are turned to God, then God gets the full credit. It's not like man should be patting himself on the back. All glory be to God alone. Isn't that what we like to sing in church?

 

[psalms 91]

Sorry, I did not see your post in here sooner.

When we sin we are to blame. Man often chooses to turn against God because the will is bound to sin (due to Original Sin and we still live in these sinful bodies).

When we are turned to God, then God gets the full credit. It's not like man should be patting himself on the back. All glory be to God alone. Isn't that what we like to sing in church?

I totally agree that it is God for many, sin has a hold on them and it is not our strength but Gods will that is why we stop.

 

[atpollard]

So why isn't it okay for babies to be baptized (water and the Word is what scriptures say that baptism is) and then later give a confession of faith that states their repentance?

Maybe it is, but that is really for God to decide and not you or me (If it is or is not OK with God, I mean.)
If an adult decides to repent now and maybe or maybe not get baptized some day, that decision is on their head and between them and God. Peter said to do both.
If an adult decides to get baptized now and maybe or maybe not repent some day, that decision is on their head and between them and God. Peter said to do both.
If an infant decides to get baptized now and maybe or maybe not repent some day, that decision is on their head and between them and God. Peter said to do both. ... But of course, that's the rub, isn't it. The infant did not decide to get baptized. Someone else made that choice for them. Where else in scripture is your salvation based on the decisions of another person? That's the part that keeps me from cheering for infant baptism.

 

[Lamb]

Maybe it is, but that is really for God to decide and not you or me (If it is or is not OK with God, I mean.)
If an adult decides to repent now and maybe or maybe not get baptized some day, that decision is on their head and between them and God. Peter said to do both.
If an adult decides to get baptized now and maybe or maybe not repent some day, that decision is on their head and between them and God. Peter said to do both.
If an infant decides to get baptized now and maybe or maybe not repent some day, that decision is on their head and between them and God. Peter said to do both. ... But of course, that's the rub, isn't it. The infant did not decide to get baptized. Someone else made that choice for them. Where else in scripture is your salvation based on the decisions of another person? That's the part that keeps me from cheering for infant baptism.

Jesus told the disciples to go out and make new disciples by baptizing and teaching. That's what Jesus wanted. And He also told the disciples at another point to not forbid the little children to come to Him. And God wants all to come to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

So, it sounds more like God wants parents to bring their children so He can baptize them (since it's in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) but it's man who denies Him that by not listening.

Acts 2:39 The promise is for you and your children.

Josiah mentioned in another thread how the Jews were community/family focused. We as modern people have strayed from that and it is one reason why that verse doesn't make as much sense to some....the promise is for our children. The people at that time wanted their children included. Baptizing and teaching is what Jesus told the disciples. The Jews would not have prevented teaching their children and there is no such verse that says to wait and make a decision before baptism. That's a modern theology.

 

[Josiah]

Again.... While God tells US to repent (a spiritual act ONLY a believer can do), He nowhere indicates that He is forbidden to forgive (or otherwise bless) unless we do that.


It is simply not biblical to argue that God is impotent to forgiven unless we first repent (or repent at all). Just one example: At His execution at Calvary, Jesus looked down from the Cross to His executioners and said: "Father, forgive them." (It's one of the Seven Last Words from the Cross so all Christians should be very familiar with this). While many feel the "them" refers to more than just the executioners, it most certainly does refer to them. Now, there is NOTHING remotely in the text that states or even implies that the executioners had just fallen on their knees in contrition, were removing Jesus from the Cross, and asked Jesus as their Savior to forgive them. Or even that they EVER asked ANYTHING of Jesus or every repented of ANYTHING. Indeed, I think it's likely His executioners took glee in their horrific "art." So, either Jesus prayed this because the Father can forgive even if there is no repentance (or even remorse!) .... or Jesus was doing something wrong and giving a horrible, misleading example from the Cross.... or Jesus was ignorant of the mandate of repentance.


ALL agree that there are LOTS of things associated with having faith. But the whole premise that in some cases (only the ones where something else is mentioned before baptism in a sentence), the word "and" is a really bad choice and the Holy Spirit should have inspired the words "then afterwords" is absurd. ANY position (no matter how absurd or heretical) can be "defended" if the word(s) in Scripture are simply deleted and replaced in stead by entirely different, foreign word(s). The word consistently used is "and" not "then." The premise that it SHOULD say "then" is very unsound.



- Josiah



.

 

[Cassia]

Knowing that Jesus said not to discourage little children from coming to Him, how is the yoke of Christ associated? The yoke symbolizes obedience in partnership with Him.

Matthew 11:28-29
If you are tired from carrying heavy burdens, come to me and I will give you rest. 29 Take the yoke I give you. Put it on your shoulders and learn from me. I am gentle and humble, and you will find rest.
Hebrews 4:10
On that day God’s people will rest from their work, just as God rested from his work.

 

[Lamb]

Knowing that Jesus said not to discourage little children from coming to Him, how is the yoke of Christ associated? The yoke symbolizes obedience in partnership with Him.

Matthew 11:28-29
If you are tired from carrying heavy burdens, come to me and I will give you rest. 29 Take the yoke I give you. Put it on your shoulders and learn from me. I am gentle and humble, and you will find rest.
Hebrews 4:10
On that day God’s people will rest from their work, just as God rested from his work.

By grace through faith we trust in God and the forgiveness won at the cross. That lifts our burdens and removes the heavy yolk which symbolizes the Law that cannot save! Faith is given in baptism because God's word is present in the water. God gives His promises in baptism as we see in the many verses provided throughout this thread.

I do not see obedience in partnership but a God who saves us by His sole act of love, mercy and compassion.

 

[Cassia]

1 Peter 3:21
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

This verse speaks of Noah and his family that were saved. Noah believed and his family was included with him. They were sanctified by God closing the door to the outside world. The pledge is a clear conscience. That is now available at the throne of grace where His shed blood cleanses, which is the true symbol of His death. His resurrection is in truth at His throne where grace is procurred.

 

[Lamb]

1 Peter 3:21
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

This verse speaks of Noah and his family that were saved. Noah believed and his family was included with him. They were sanctified by God closing the door to the outside world. The pledge is a clear conscience. That is now available at the throne of grace where His shed blood cleanses, which is the true symbol of His death. His resurrection is in truth at His throne where grace is procurred.

The translation of "pledge" is not a very accurate one. "Appeal" is a better word.
NASB version: Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

So we see in that verse that baptism saves. It's God saving us through the waters just like He saved Noah and His family. None of us can be saved without faith in Christ Jesus and baptism gives us that faith. The appeal to God for a good conscience comes by faith in Jesus.

"Eperotema comes from the verb eperotao which means "to ask" or "request." So it is rightly translated by the RSV and NASB as "appeal." Translations that substitute "answer/pledge" for "request/appeal" also tend to confuse the Greek grammar just to make sense of it all. They make the good conscience the source or agent of the pledge. But this completely misses the parallel between "flesh" and "good conscience" found in the Greek. If the good conscience is the source or agent of the pledge then it would seem that "flesh" would have to be the source or agent of the removal of dirt which wouldn't make any sense at all and which no translation to my knowledge does. Baptism is not the removal of dirt from the flesh. Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience." http://lutherantheologystudygroup.blogspot.com/2013/06/1-peter-321-is-baptism-appeal-to-god.html

"The point is, baptism is not mere physical washing, it does not just get the dirt off you, it gets the sin off you and is the means to receive a good conscience before God. There is no way to have a good conscience before God other than having your sins forgiven. This corresponds with Acts 22:16 "..Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." Where does this good conscience come from? It cannot be from our goodness for it is never perfect, it must come from possession of Christ's righteousness, available to us through his death and resurrection. Baptism saves us, not because of the outward act but because it gives us the only righteousness by which we can really have a good conscience, Christ's. "

 

[MoreCoffee]

1 Peter 3:21* which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σώζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου, ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς Θεόν, δι᾿ ἀναστάσεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ,*

επερωτημα means inquiry.

 

[atpollard]

What makes baptism? It's God's promises in the water according to His word (water and the word). I listed the verses already here in the thread from a bible study. I can post it again if you like.

God has promised that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be received in baptism.

God has promised that the gift is for our children too.

Since the gift of the Holy Spirit is received, then faith is given to those who receive baptism.

Since the gift of the Holy Spirit is received in baptism as Acts states, then those who receive baptism are also turned to God. That's repentance. It isn't just sorrow for sins we have committed. Surely we are sinful since conception as the psalm verse states.

What is the "gift" that is promised?
Is it the Holy Spirit and Salvation?
Is anyone saved because of the faith of another?
Are all children of the saved part of the 'elect', those claimed by God to be loved before the foundation of the Earth and 'predestined' (God's word) for eternal life? Emphirical evidence suggests that this is not the case.

Not all baptized Lutheran go on to exhibit the fruit of the spirit and the works that 'prove' a genuine faith. Some have a 'dead faith' (by James definition) and yield no visible fruit. Yet you seem to be claiming that they were baptized for the forgiveness of sins, potentially unaware, and received both salvific forgiveness and the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance.

Have I misunderstood your claims for what God does at infant baptism? Have I misunderstood Peter's claims for what happens in Acts chapter 2?

 

[Lamb]

What is the "gift" that is promised?
Is it the Holy Spirit and Salvation?
Is anyone saved because of the faith of another?
Are all children of the saved part of the 'elect', those claimed by God to be loved before the foundation of the Earth and 'predestined' (God's word) for eternal life? Emphirical evidence suggests that this is not the case.

Not all baptized Lutheran go on to exhibit the fruit of the spirit and the works that 'prove' a genuine faith. Some have a 'dead faith' (by James definition) and yield no visible fruit. Yet you seem to be claiming that they were baptized for the forgiveness of sins, potentially unaware, and received both salvific forgiveness and the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance.

Have I misunderstood your claims for what God does at infant baptism? Have I misunderstood Peter's claims for what happens in Acts chapter 2?

The gift promised is the Holy Spirit and He gives the forgiveness that Jesus won at the cross for us. He does so by giving faith by God's word since God placed promises in the waters of baptism.

Someone else's faith does not save. We are all saved in the same way, by grace through faith.

Children are not automatically saved as some believe without faith because then that removes the scripture of "by grace through faith". The elect are those who have faith when they pass and when Jesus returns. God knows who these are but that does not mean God isn't giving faith to those who will reject Him later.

There are those who have been baptized as babies and go on to reject God. That is true. There are also those who make a decision for God (which I disagree with decision theology since any decision made is one already by grace through faith...) who go on to reject God. This doesn't mean that God didn't do it right in baptism. Our rejection of God is always our own fault. Not His.

I think you're neglecting what I've stated in that God's word is in the waters of baptism (water and the word) and that we are given faith by His word. None of us can't believe in God without faith and faith comes by His word.

 

[Cassia]

....
I think you're neglecting what I've stated in that God's word is in the waters of baptism (water and the word) and that we are given faith by His word. None of us can't believe in God without faith and faith comes by His word.

What you think is being neglected I don't think is biblical. The water flowing is Christ as the refreshment in drink form. The woman at the well is an example, the rock in the desert, bible references to the Word and water are about drinking Him in, the cup that overfloweth ... https://www.openbible.info/topics/living_water

baptismal water is symbolic of His death. symbolically they represent His death, not Him. If anything they would represent the Holy Spirit but I don't even think that to be true because the oceans are not represented in the New Jerusalem. It represents death.

 

[Lamb]

What you think is being neglected I don't think is biblical. The water flowing is Christ as the refreshment in drink form. The woman at the well is an example, the rock in the desert, bible references to the Word and water are about drinking Him in, the cup that overfloweth ... https://www.openbible.info/topics/living_water

baptismal water is symbolic of His death. symbolically they represent His death, not Him. If anything they would represent the Holy Spirit but I don't even think that to be true because the oceans are not represented in the New Jerusalem. It represents death.

Except that this baptismal verse says it's water and the word: Ephesians 5:26. Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

 

[Cassia]

Except that this baptismal verse says it's water and the word: Ephesians 5:26. Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

Washing in the living water which is the Word.... yes, so? What denominations call baptismal verses doesn't make it so. Exodus 30:18-21 The laver was where the priests wash their hands and feet before commencing service. That's the closest facimile found to the fount of living water, but it's not applicable to baptism imo.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Still no agreement on baptism?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wonder if friend atpollard missed the reply shown here

...
By baptizing infants, you seem to think so. On what scriptural basis? (Honest question, not an attempt to trick or trap).

Honest answer. In our baptismal liturgy the parents and God parents of the child are asked "What do you ask of God's Church for <name of child>.?" and the normal answer is "baptism" but alternatives are available and for your question the alternatives are more instructive.

The celebrant may choose other words for this dialogue. The first reply may be given by someone other than the parents if local custom gives him the right to name the child.

In the second response the parents may use other words, such as, "faith," "the grace of Christ," "entrance into the Church," "eternal life."​

Catholics have a perspective on the meaning of baptism that differs profoundly from the sort of individualism that characterises most forms of Protestantism.

The scriptural basis is the same one you use but we use it with a far more communal understanding so our hermeneutic differs from yours fundamentally.

...

 

[Lamb]

Washing in the living water which is the Word.... yes, so? What denominations call baptismal verses doesn't make it so. Exodus 30:18-21 The laver was where the priests wash their hands and feet before commencing service. That's the closest facimile found to the fount of living water, but it's not applicable to baptism imo.

Since Jesus mandated baptism, it's water and the word. It's by His authority so the waters of baptism are not just waters but waters by His command and His promises.