How does man respond to God who reveals himself?

[MoreCoffee]

But once that forgiveness is given subjectively, objectively it's the forgiveness that was won at the cross. Before you were born. Before you sinned. Before you repented. It's not like Jesus gave an opportunity for sins to be forgiven. They actually were forgiven at the cross. Atonement was made. The sacrifice accepted.

Your repentance means nothing if the forgiveness at the cross wasn't there first.

No one is disputing the order of events. Jesus died two thousand years ago. That's a fact. No one can expect forgiveness without repentance. Jesus told a parable about the principle. It reads this way:

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”

22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”​

 

[Josiah]

double post

 

[Josiah]

No one can expect forgiveness without repentance. Jesus told a parable about the principle. It reads this way:

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”

22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him.

24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars.

25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”​

1. Your premise is wrong. For example, Jesus looked down from the Cross to His executioners and those mocking Him as He died. And among His Last Words (you should know the Seven Last Words) Jesus said, "Father, forgive THEM." The "THEM" likely refers to His executioners (and perhaps also the Jewish leaders and Pontius Pilate). Did any of those "them" repent (an act of faith)? There's nothing remotely in the text that so states or suggests or even implies. I find it likely those Roman executioners took glee in their horrific act..... I doubt they felt remorse, much less repented by looking to God for mercy and forgiveness and changed their ways by removing Christ from the Cross. Perhaps we disagree on that.


2. "Repent" is important for CHRISTIANS, those who are the Children of God, who HAVE faith, who have been raised from the dead/regenerated. But it's impossible for those who aren't. Repent is a SPIRITUAL act.... one done via the spirit. Those who are spiritually DEAD can't do anything spiritual, including repenting. Remorse is an emotional thing of our psyche which simply expresses sorrow.... unregenerate, spiritually DEAD can do this since this is not a spiritual act at all but simply an emotional feeling (animals can have remorse!) but repent is a spiritual act.... one is sorry they have offended GOD and man, they confess to GOD and man, they look to GOD for mercy.... One who denies and rejects and repudiates God isn't going to do anything to God... isn't going to look to God for anything.... anymore than I look to Buddha or do anything in relation to Buddha. I maybe THINK Buddha existed (I do) but I have no faith/life toward or in relation to Buddha. Nor do the DEAD, the unregerate, the unbeliever.


3. You're twisting this inside-out. Peter was a Christian. Jesus is talking about what CHRISTIANS should do for those who sin against us, not what dead people should do toward God (whom they deny even exists). Christians HAVE faith. Christians HAVE life. Christians have been raised from the DEAD. Christians have the "free gift of faith, which is the work of God lest any should boast." And it's about CHRISTIANS forgiving people - not God. The point of this parable is the need of CHRISTIANS to forgive others..... you've entirely ignored the lesson here and twisted it upside down to make a point that an unbeliever who doesn't accept that God even exists (much less forgives) is mandated to repent to God and look to God for forgiveness.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Father forgive them was a good prayer and Jesus died for the whole world, still it didn't benefit them all.

So, Jesus' prayer was denied?

Jesus doesn't pray, "Father - some day in the future, IF these DEAD and unregenerate people who deny your very existence nonetheless confess to you that they have sinned against you and seek your mercy although they deny you have mercy, then - and only in that future when all those conditions have been met, forgive these DEAD people nonetheless if the dead DO all these spiritual things - THEN forgiven just those."

No. I think Jesus is praying that God forgives (present tense) them. The "them" who seems had not previously repented. "Father, forgive (present tense) THEM."



- Josiah


.

 

[Rens]

So, Jesus' pray was denied, according to you?

The verb here is in the present tense. Not future, not conditional. Jesus doesn't pray, "Father - some day in the future, IF these DEAD and unregenerate people who deny your very existence nonetheless confess to you that thay have sinned and seek your mercy although they deny you even exist, then - and only in that future when all those conditions have been met and these DEAD people nonetheless DO all these spiritual things - THEN forgiven just those."

The Father forgave Judas and the pharisees who did the unforgivable sin already, now good? Or the other robber, I hope so for him.
Just heard an Arabic song and they had that text

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

 

[Rens]

I guess He prayed for those and the Romans who did it cause you see them later get converted. Stephen prayed for Paul when he got stoned.

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’[d]
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[e] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’[f]
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

 

[Rens]

Btw the thread was about forgiving others.

 

[Rens]

The Father forgave Judas and the pharisees who did the unforgivable sin already, now good? Or the other robber, I hope so for him.
Just heard an Arabic song and they had that text

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.