How does man respond to God who reveals himself?

[MoreCoffee]

How does man respond to God who reveals himself? Enabled by divine grace, we respond to God with obedience and faith, which means full surrender of ourselves to God and acceptance of the truth revealed by God because God is Truth itself.

 

[Lamb]

How does man respond to God who reveals himself? Enabled by divine grace, we respond to God with obedience and faith, which means full surrender of ourselves to God and acceptance of the truth revealed by God because God is Truth itself.

Do you mean converted man or unconverted? Even those who were in the presence of Jesus didn't believe in Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you mean converted man or unconverted? Even those who were in the presence of Jesus didn't believe in Him.

Since every man living on earth is not converted - as if their conversion were a finished act - and those who are called by God to a life of faith are in a process of converting that lasts all their earthly life it follows that your question doesn't make much practical sense. No man living on earth is converted.

 

[Lamb]

I suppose we have different definitions of what it means to be converted. I mean it as the Holy Spirit makes us believers. Converting us from nonbeliever to believer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you mean converted man or unconverted? Even those who were in the presence of Jesus didn't believe in Him.

I suppose we have different definitions of what it means to be converted. I mean it as the Holy Spirit makes us believers. Converting us from nonbeliever to believer.

In your first post you say that even those who were with Jesus on earth did not believe in him and in your second post you say the Holy Spirit makes us believers. Is that what you intended to say; specifically that while living on earth a person both does not believe and that the same person is also made to believe by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Lamb]

In your first post you say that even those who were with Jesus on earth did not believe in him and in your second post you say the Holy Spirit makes us believers. Is that what you intended to say; specifically that while living on earth a person both does not believe and that the same person is also made to believe by the Holy Spirit?

Believing Jesus exists isn't the same as having faith in Him to save. Does that help clear up your confusion on what I wrote?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Believing Jesus exists isn't the same as having faith in Him to save. Does that help clear up your confusion on what I wrote?

No. I was not confused. I wondered how you meant those two statements to be taken. How do you mean them to be taken? Specifically what do you mean by "even those who were with Jesus on earth did not believe in him" and "the Holy Spirit makes us believers"?

 

[Stravinsk]

How does man respond to God who reveals himself? Enabled by divine grace, we respond to God with obedience and faith, which means full surrender of ourselves to God and acceptance of the truth revealed by God because God is Truth itself.

How does man respond to God? From the bible:

Jonah was a prophet that ran from God.
Moses doubted God's choosing him because he was not a good public speaker.
Sarah laughed when God said she would conceive
Shortly after being supernaturally delivered from the Egyptians, the Israelites turned to idol worship

Generally I'd say it depends on the man, the man's particular idiosyncrasies at the time, how he responds to group think, and how God reveals Himself.

Obedience takes effort. I know there are some people here who will say all of our obedience is God's work - and in the higher sense that may be true - but to overcome bad habits, adopt new ones and stand firm in any position that is true but not popular takes effort. I don't know any human being who goes from non-religious to religious (Christian or other faith) and then suddenly overcomes all of their upbringing (good or bad), all of their negative experiences, all of their vanity, all of their laziness, pride, gluttony, lusts etc "in a flash of obedient faith". My gosh, David is held up to be a "man after God's own heart" - but he was certainly far from perfect - as he selfishly had a man murdered so he could take his wife he had been lusting after!

 

[Lamb]

No. I was not confused. I wondered how you meant those two statements to be taken. How do you mean them to be taken? Specifically what do you mean by "even those who were with Jesus on earth did not believe in him" and "the Holy Spirit makes us believers"?

There were men who rejected Jesus and they were right there in the presence of the Messiah. Yes, they turned away from Him. They were Jews who believed in the coming of the Messiah but once He was in front of them they did not recognize him and turned away rejecting the Savior. Whether the Holy Spirit turned them back again at some point is not known and not recorded except in the case of Paul. He believed that there was a Messiah but not at first in Jesus but we know what happened to him! The Holy Spirit gave him faith to believe and the rest is history.

As for my comment on the Holy Spirit makes us believers, that is His job. He gives us faith and He does so by the word and specifically the Gospel concerning the Savior and forgiveness of sins. Not everyone will remain in faith and so they reject it and turn away from God.

Responses to faith...
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:1-2)

Fruit...
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” (Galatians 5:22-25)

 

[Stravinsk]

There were men who rejected Jesus and they were right there in the presence of the Messiah. Yes, they turned away from Him. They were Jews who believed in the coming of the Messiah but once He was in front of them they did not recognize him and turned away rejecting the Savior. Whether the Holy Spirit turned them back again at some point is not known and not recorded except in the case of Paul. He believed that there was a Messiah but not at first in Jesus but we know what happened to him! The Holy Spirit gave him faith to believe and the rest is history.

Most Christians think they know. What they think they know is that Christ completely wasted His time teaching anything to the disciples so as to give it alllll to Paaaullll...secretly by special relevation on the wide road to Damascus(or in Arabia?). Yep, that's what they think they know.

Fruit...
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” (Galatians 5:22-25)

Crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts? Just the *evil* affections and lusts right? Paul's words are sort of general here...but let's assume it's just the evil stuff - no one should say bodily hunger for food or normal sexual urges should be crucified, right?. Anyway, so just the evil stuff. ---> Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with it's [evil] affections and lusts!

Now if someone reads this statement by the Christian's favorite Pharisee - they might - just might - walk away thinking they have no sin - or that according to the statement they should have no sin. Of course, in the case of the former, this contradicts 1 John 1: 7-10

 

[MoreCoffee]

One cannot expect to be forgiven without repenting. Jesus told a parable about the principle. It reads this way:

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”

22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”​

 

[Lamb]

One cannot expect to be forgiven without repenting. Jesus told a parable about the principle. It reads this way:

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”

22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”​

You do understand that the forgiveness given through repentance is what Christ died for on the cross, right? It was done at the cross.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You do understand that the forgiveness given through repentance is what Christ died for on the cross, right? It was done at the cross.

Have I said or implied that forgiveness of sins was in any way separated from the work of Jesus Christ? No? That's right so why do you even ask?

 

[Josiah]

One cannot expect to be forgiven without repenting

1. Your premise is wrong. For example, Jesus looked down from the Cross to His executioners and those mocking Him as He died. And among His Last Words (you should know the Seven Last Words) Jesus said, "Father, forgive THEM." The "THEM" likely refers to His executioners (and perhaps also the Jewish leaders and Pontius Pilate). Did any of those "them" repent (an act of faith)? There's nothing remotely in the text that so states or suggests or even implies. I find it likely those Roman executioners took glee in their horrific act..... I doubt they felt remorse, much less repented by looking to God for mercy and forgiveness and changed their ways by removing Christ from the Cross. Perhaps we disagree on that.


2. "Repent" is important for CHRISTIANS, those who are the Children of God, who HAVE faith, who have been raised from the dead/regenerated. But it's impossible for those who aren't. Repent is a SPIRITUAL act.... one done via the spirit. Those who are spiritually DEAD can't do anything spiritual, including repenting. Remorse is an emotional thing of our psyche which simply expresses sorrow.... unregenerate, spiritually DEAD can do this since this is not a spiritual act at all but simply an emotional feeling (animals can have remorse!) but repent is a spiritual act.... one is sorry they have offended GOD and man, they confess to GOD and man, they look to GOD for mercy.... One who denies and rejects and repudiates God isn't going to do anything to God... isn't going to look to God for anything.... anymore than I look to Buddha or do anything in relation to Buddha. I maybe THINK Buddha existed (I do) but I have no faith/life toward or in relation to Buddha. Nor do the DEAD, the unregerate, the unbeliever.

Jesus told a parable about the principle. It reads this way:

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”

22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”​

Peter was a Christian. Jesus is talking about what CHRISTIANS should do. Christians HAVE faith. Christians HAVE life. Christians have been raised from the DEAD. Christians have the "free gift of faith, which is the work of God lest any should boast." And it's about CHRISTIANS forgiving people - not God.

And the point of this parable is the need of CHRISTIANS to forgive others..... you've entirely ignored the lesson here and twisted it upside down to make a point that an unbeliever who doesn't accept that God even exists (much less forgives) is mandated to repent to God and look to God for forgiveness.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah



.

 

[Cassia]

Repentance - turning from false idols to embrace the living God. A change of mind.

Anyone can say they repent but it's exemplified in the reply to the Father whether to go work in the vineyard or not. Some say no but regret it and went. Others say they will but don't.

A renewed mind can only come from placing oneself on the altar. Romans 12:1-3

The premise of the topic is that God has revealed Himself and what would the response to Him look like. The parable of the two sons deals with being confronted by the Father and the two responses to that. The response should be obedience.

 

[Lamb]

Have I said or implied that forgiveness of sins was in any way separated from the work of Jesus Christ? No? That's right so why do you even ask?

You said that one cannot expect to be forgiven without repenting. But Jesus died on the cross and our sins were forgiven...before we were born. Before we sinned. Before we repented. God brings us to repentance and gives us forgiveness but that forgiveness comes from the cross. It's the one where all my sins were forgiven. Before I was born. Before I sinned. Before I repented.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You said that one cannot expect to be forgiven without repenting. But Jesus died on the cross and our sins were forgiven...before we were born. Before we sinned. Before we repented. God brings us to repentance and gives us forgiveness but that forgiveness comes from the cross. It's the one where all my sins were forgiven. Before I was born. Before I sinned. Before I repented.

Jesus died on the cross and no one can expect forgiveness without repenting. If we confess our sins, then he is faithful and just, so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity. If we claim that we have not sinned, then we make him a liar, and his Word is not in us. 1 John 1:9-10

 

[Rens]

1. Your premise is wrong. For example, Jesus looked down from the Cross to His executioners and those mocking Him as He died. And among His Last Words (you should know the Seven Last Words) Jesus said, "Father, forgive THEM." The "THEM" likely refers to His executioners (and perhaps also the Jewish leaders and Pontius Pilate). Did any of those "them" repent (an act of faith)? There's nothing remotely in the text that so states or suggests or even implies. I find it likely those Roman executioners took glee in their horrific act..... I doubt they felt remorse, much less repented by looking to God for mercy and forgiveness and changed their ways by removing Christ from the Cross. Perhaps we disagree on that.


2. "Repent" is important for CHRISTIANS, those who are the Children of God, who HAVE faith, who have been raised from the dead/regenerated. But it's impossible for those who aren't. Repent is a SPIRITUAL act.... one done via the spirit. Those who are spiritually DEAD can't do anything spiritual, including repenting. Remorse is an emotional thing of our psyche which simply expresses sorrow.... unregenerate, spiritually DEAD can do this since this is not a spiritual act at all but simply an emotional feeling (animals can have remorse!) but repent is a spiritual act.... one is sorry they have offended GOD and man, they confess to GOD and man, they look to GOD for mercy.... One who denies and rejects and repudiates God isn't going to do anything to God... isn't going to look to God for anything.... anymore than I look to Buddha or do anything in relation to Buddha. I maybe THINK Buddha existed (I do) but I have no faith/life toward or in relation to Buddha. Nor do the DEAD, the unregerate, the unbeliever.







Peter was a Christian. Jesus is talking about what CHRISTIANS should do. Christians HAVE faith. Christians HAVE life. Christians have been raised from the DEAD. Christians have the "free gift of faith, which is the work of God lest any should boast." And it's about CHRISTIANS forgiving people - not God.

And the point of this parable is the need of CHRISTIANS to forgive others..... you've entirely ignored the lesson here and twisted it upside down to make a point that an unbeliever who doesn't accept that God even exists (much less forgives) is mandated to repent to God and look to God for forgiveness.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah



.

1. Not everyone but a lot yes with pentecost and later a lot of priests. The ones who didn't repent later like Peter said they should didn't get forgiven either. MoreCoffee is right as always LOL. It counts for everyone. Father forgive them was a good prayer and Jesus died for the whole world, still it didn't benefit them all.

 

[Lamb]

Jesus died on the cross and no one can expect forgiveness without repenting. If we confess our sins, then he is faithful and just, so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity. If we claim that we have not sinned, then we make him a liar, and his Word is not in us. 1 John 1:9-10

But once that forgiveness is given subjectively, objectively it's the forgiveness that was won at the cross. Before you were born. Before you sinned. Before you repented. It's not like Jesus gave an opportunity for sins to be forgiven. They actually were forgiven at the cross. Atonement was made. The sacrifice accepted.

Your repentance means nothing if the forgiveness at the cross wasn't there first.

 

[Lamb]

1. Not everyone but a lot yes with pentecost and later a lot of priests. The ones who didn't repent later like Peter said they should didn't get forgiven either. MoreCoffee is right as always LOL. It counts for everyone. Father forgive them was a good prayer and Jesus died for the whole world, still it didn't benefit them all.

You're right in that not everyone will benefit from the cross. There are men who reject the Savior and the forgiveness of sins. They damn themselves by rejecting.