Antihistamines for works.

[user1234]

I will not truncate your post though I was tempted to do so as you did with mine and I will give you a blunt answer. You asked Can I be saved without my doing this 'work'? the answer is no. You personally cannot. You are able to do good works if you want to and if you choose not to then you have no reliable reason to expect salvation from God. If you had asked can anybody be saved without doing good works? then the answer would be yes. Anybody who is not able to do good works who is, for example, hanging on a cross next to Jesus as the Lord is dying needs no good works beyond what he was able to do - speaking words of support about Jesus when the other thief accused Jesus and expressing trust and hope in Jesus. You still haven't pointed to anything I have written in CH that teaches salvation by works. And as I said before you are not going to find anything that I have written that teaches salvation by works because I do not believe it and I do not teach it and nor does the Catholic Church believe or teach it.

Sure you do, only you might not even be aware of it. First line highlighted in red. (I'm starting to see, you remind me of some RC family members of mine, who I believe are now saved, not BECAUSE of the RCchurch, but IN SPITE of it.)
They just were entrenched in RC doctrines and practices, and it's a stronghold.

When you tell atpollard he has 'No reliable reason to EXPECT salvation from God', that's it in a nutshell.
What he's been trying to tell you, and myself and others have as well, is we already HAVE salvation!! In Christ! He secured it FOR us!

It's settled because in His great love for us, He did the unthinkable, He paid for our sins on the cross, rose from the grave, and GAVE US, as a GIFT, salvation!

That's the good news, morecoffee, that's what we've been trying to tell you.
It's not about performing or good works or religious practice in order to have hope so expectations that maybe one day you might be saved.

Jesus is our Saviour. We can expect to BE saved, because He ALREADY saved us. We go forward in full faith and confidence, because our confidence is not in our fallen selves, but in our Risen, Perfect Saviour. HE is the One that saved us!

You can have the same confidence. You already, in a sense, believe in Jesus, but not yet for salvation, but you can right now today. He loves you.
We love you, that's why we want to see you saved.
Not by looking at religion, but by looking unto Jesus. By coming to His throne of grace, not by works, but because of Jesus, and saying, 'Lord, I come to you, without one plea, except Your blood was shed for me, and I believe, yea, I KNOW it was. I ask you to settle it in my heart once for all, that you are forever my Saviour and I forever belong to you. Thank you for saving me, and giving me this wonderful gift. Thank you, Jesus, Amen!

It's really a matter of getting the whole cart/horse thing aright at this point.
Jesus saved you ... done deal ... It is finished ... Let Him settle it in your heart.
Once saved, how you work out your salvation, the salvation you ALREADY HAVE, DONE, SETTLED, is a personal matter of growth, sanctification, but you're not working FOR the gift of salvation already been given to you, you're working OUT ... an OUTWORKING, in practical daily living and your personal relationship with Jesus, the salvation you ALREADY HAVE within.

Don't you see now how much our heavenly Father loves you, that He wants you to simply receive this gift of salvation and praise the Lord for giving it to you?
Hear Jesus say, 'Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.'
Nothing or no one can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Hallelujah!

 

[MoreCoffee]

You are huffing and puffing Snerfle but the house is not coming down. Do you object to Jesus saying "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me." Surely not, I hope. Do you object to Paul writing "Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." No? I should say not! Obviously no one is saved while being as wicked as they please. No one can play this absurd game of "once saved always saved" as if it entitled them to live a life of riotous sin and debauchery while being absolutely certain of their heavenly reward because they were "once saved" and consequently are "always saved". But if you heed the words of the Lord then you will be circumspect, live a life of godliness, and seek to do good as the Lord commands. Jesus said "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love". Strive to obey then, and rest in the assurance of salvation that James writes about when he said "Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works." Yet James does not teach salvation by works. He affirms the goodness of good works and the need for them with faith as the proper fruit of the grace that saves. As Paul wrote "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God-- not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." So let's have none of this rubbish about being saved while living a life of wickedness. Affirm what the holy scriptures teach; namely that God's grace whereby the faithful are saved creates in them faith and good works which lead to holiness "holiness without which no one will see the Lord".

 

[user1234]

You are huffing and puffing Snerfle but the house is not coming down. Do you object to Jesus saying "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me." Surely not, I hope. Do you object to Paul writing "Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." No? I should say not! Obviously no one is saved while being as wicked as they please. No one can play this absurd game of "once saved always saved" as if it entitled them to live a life of riotous sin and debauchery while being absolutely certain of their heavenly reward because they were "once saved" and consequently are "always saved". But if you heed the words of the Lord then you will be circumspect, live a life of godliness, and seek to do good as the Lord commands. Jesus said "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love". Strive to obey then, and rest in the assurance of salvation that James writes about when he said "Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works." Yet James does not teach salvation by works. He affirms the goodness of good works and the need for them with faith as the proper fruit of the grace that saves. As Paul wrote "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God-- not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." So let's have none of this rubbish about being saved while living a life of wickedness. Affirm what the holy scriptures teach; namely that God's grace whereby the faithful are saved creates in them faith and good works which lead to holiness "holiness without which no one will see the Lord".

Wow, classic scripture twisting. And some of what you claim is such a bogus strawman tactic I cant believe you still try it on this website.

'Lets have none of this rubbish of being saved while living a life of wickedness'.
Your words.
What a bogus heap of fantasy land that is.
Who here ever said to do that?
That's such a phoney in your arguement and you know it.
Okay, the gospel has been given to you. Repeatedly.
My hand of friendship has been extended to you, and so has that of others here. Repeatedly.
You are the one who has chosen to repel both the gospel and friendship.
Your choice. You sit in judgement of others. You point out the speck in anothers eye, while failing to see the log in your own. You claim to have the answers, but have yet to receive the salvation offered to you freely in love, you just want to insist on holding to your stubborn ways while rejecting others, and you continue that childish mocking. Have your way. You'll eventually bow the knee to the Lord Jesus Christ, I just pray you do so with a joyful heart of thanksgiving, and not a bitter hardened one through gritted teeth.
This isn't a joke, friend, we're talking about eternal life. I really pray you think about it. I tried all I could to reach to you.
Btw, thanks for not extending friendship, up front or in return. If that's what your religion teaches about loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself, you can have it. I'll take Jesus and the bible over that religion ANY day!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay Mr Snerfle, here are the passages tell me what they teach.

'When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me." Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?" And the king will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me." Then he will say to those at his left hand, "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they also will answer, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?" Then he will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
(Mat 25:31-46)
'I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine-grower. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete. 'This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my Father. You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another.
(Joh 15:1-17)
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness', and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.
(Jas 2:14-26)
You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God-- not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
(Eph 2:1-10)
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without murmuring and arguing, so that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, in which you shine like stars in the world. It is by your holding fast to the word of life that I can boast on the day of Christ that I did not run in vain or labour in vain. But even if I am being poured out as a libation over the sacrifice and the offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you-- and in the same way you also must be glad and rejoice with me.
(Php 2:12-18)
​

I am waiting.

 

[MoreCoffee]

To recapitualte. I do not teach nor do I believe that one earns salvation. Salvation is a gift. A grace as the scriptures say [SUP]Eph 2:8-10[/SUP]. And the grace of salvation produces faith and good works as the scriptures say [SUP]Eph 2:8-10[/SUP]. Nevertheless no one ought to presume that they are safe and home in heaven simply because they have professed faith in Jesus Christ since all are warned of the risk of falling into sin; "You who fear the Lord, wait for his mercy; do not stray, or else you may fall." [SUP]Sir 2:7[/SUP]. Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]Heb 3:12[/SUP] An elder must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace and the snare of the devil. [SUP]1Ti 3:6-7[/SUP] Of course not every temptation leads to final condemnation but the warnings are there and need to be heeded by the faithful. Good works are a gift themselves - contrary to the view that some present - and thus they do not earn God's grace but they do attract his approval. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For whoever has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. [SUP]Rom 6:6-14[/SUP] This is why the Lord warns his disciples of the coming judgement that he says is about the things that the faithful did for the least of his brethren. [SUP]Mat 25:31-46[/SUP]

 

[Rens]

Wow, classic scripture twisting. And some of what you claim is such a bogus strawman tactic I cant believe you still try it on this website.

'Lets have none of this rubbish of being saved while living a life of wickedness'.
Your words.
What a bogus heap of fantasy land that is.
Who here ever said to do that?
That's such a phoney in your arguement and you know it.

You don't say that and I know your church preaches against sin, but not all churches do.
Yes we are saved and work out our salvation, but if a church only preaches that and not the fear of the Lord and doesn't warn: watch out you don't fall way, that's bad and fact is that people fall away. I backslid myself. On one hand you can think I was saved, so I came back, but not without some serious hell warnings from God Himself and not all have come back. If people don't forgive and refuse til their last breath, they were maybe saved for a short while, like with the sawyer that parable, but in the end they're not saved.

 

[Lamb]

So let's have none of this rubbish about being saved while living a life of wickedness.

Jesus died on the cross for us because we couldn't live perfectly holy lives. Thank God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You don't say that and I know your church preaches against sin, but not all churches do.
Yes we are saved and work out our salvation, but if a church only preaches that and not the fear of the Lord and doesn't warn: watch out you don't fall way, that's bad and fact is that people fall away. I backslid myself. On one hand you can think I was saved, so I came back, but not without some serious hell warnings from God Himself and not all have come back. If people don't forgive and refuse til their last breath, they were maybe saved for a short while, like with the sawyer that parable, but in the end they're not saved.

If Snerfle looked carefully at what I wrote he's see I didn't say that he (or anybody else here) teaches "I can sin as I please and still have salvation". But it is evident that he didn't read what I wrote so he replied to a phantom that he thinks I mean. That is what I said is such a problem here. People read but don't pay attention. If they read the holy scriptures with a little attention as they read what the person with whom they are debating says then heaven help them when the last judgement arrives. What I said is this:

You are huffing and puffing Snerfle but the house is not coming down. Do you object to Jesus saying "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me." Surely not, I hope. Do you object to Paul writing "Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." No? I should say not! Obviously no one is saved while being as wicked as they please. No one can play this absurd game of "once saved always saved" as if it entitled them to live a life of riotous sin and debauchery while being absolutely certain of their heavenly reward because they were "once saved" and consequently are "always saved". But if you heed the words of the Lord then you will be circumspect, live a life of godliness, and seek to do good as the Lord commands. Jesus said "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love". Strive to obey then, and rest in the assurance of salvation that James writes about when he said "Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works." Yet James does not teach salvation by works. He affirms the goodness of good works and the need for them with faith as the proper fruit of the grace that saves. As Paul wrote "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God-- not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." So let's have none of this rubbish about being saved while living a life of wickedness. Affirm what the holy scriptures teach; namely that God's grace whereby the faithful are saved creates in them faith and good works which lead to holiness "holiness without which no one will see the Lord".​

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus died on the cross for us because we couldn't live perfectly holy lives. Thank God.

Dear Lämmchen, quoting out of context never helped anybody to understand anything except how to perpetuate a pointless argument. You know that is true. the purpose of the statement you quote is to let me say what follows; namely "Affirm what the holy scriptures teach; namely that God's grace whereby the faithful are saved creates in them faith and good works which lead to holiness "holiness without which no one will see the Lord". " Yet some do say the "rubbish" that is condemned by the statement you extracted for your quote. I know it is so because I know some who say it. The point of my post is to affirm the grace of God but it is grace that creates faith and good works. It is not barren grace that creates nothing. And since it creates faith how can it help but create faithfulness in life? Good works are the working out in life of the faith that is within. Like a sacrament is an outward (physical) sign and seal of the invisible and inward grace that the sacrament conveys.

Yes, thank God for his grace in Christ Jesus. God's grace is what rescues the faithful from "this body of sin and death" [SUP]Rom 7:24-25[/SUP].

 

[Lamb]

Good works can only be done by the saved. But salvation is done by the Savior. He saves us.

Those who want to continue to live in sin CAN fall away from faith and damn themselves.

Do you agree with those statements?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good works can only be done by the saved. But salvation is done by the Savior. He saves us.

Those who want to continue to live in sin CAN fall away from faith and damn themselves.

Do you agree with those statements?

Lämmchen, I agree that falling away from the faith may result in condemnation (damnation). I agree that good works are a gift from God. I say that faith is a gift from God too. Both faith and good works are intertwined in the saving grace of God and the saving grace of God is Jesus Christ himself. "And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth. (John testified to him and cried out, 'This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks ahead of me because he was before me."') From his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known." [SUP]John 1:14-18[/SUP]

Both salvation and condemnation are pronounced by the Lord. Nobody else is competent to pronounce it. Nobody can earn their way into God's grace because if they could then grace would not be grace. The scriptures say "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace." [SUP]Romans 11:6[/SUP] Yet grace is not passive. Jesus is not passive. The faithful in Christ are not passive. They are the body of Christ and work the works of God in this world for the salvation of many.

 

[psalms 91]

Neither is our faith passive or our walk, there are many commandments of Christ in the New Testament and it says that those who love me, obey me

 

[atpollard]

I will not truncate your post though I was tempted to do so as you did with mine and I will give you a blunt answer. You asked Can I be saved without my doing this 'work'? the answer is no. You personally cannot. You are able to do good works if you want to and if you choose not to then you have no reliable reason to expect salvation from God. If you had asked can anybody be saved without doing good works? then the answer would be yes. Anybody who is not able to do good works who is, for example, hanging on a cross next to Jesus as the Lord is dying needs no good works beyond what he was able to do - speaking words of support about Jesus when the other thief accused Jesus and expressing trust and hope in Jesus. You still haven't pointed to anything I have written in CH that teaches salvation by works. And as I said before you are not going to find anything that I have written that teaches salvation by works because I do not believe it and I do not teach it and nor does the Catholic Church believe or teach it.

I am more responding to My previous post than to yours.
I need to ask your forgiveness.

While the substance was probably appropriate, the tone was definitely not.
The reference to your 'god' WAS indeed shameful on my part.
I apologize for getting too personal and adversarial.

I simply define 'salvation' as an event (like birth) where a believer gains a fresh start (because that was my personal experience) followed by 'sanctification' as a life long walk towards Christ-likeness that includes 'works' as the 'proof' of our ongoing living faith.
You (and I assume the Catholic Church) appear to define 'salvation' as a lifelong process (based upon your statements).

There seems no Christian option but to agree to disagree (and for me to apologize for my behavior).

 

[atpollard]

To recapitualte. I do not teach nor do I believe that one earns salvation. Salvation is a gift. A grace as the scriptures say [SUP]Eph 2:8-10[/SUP]. And the grace of salvation produces faith and good works as the scriptures say [SUP]Eph 2:8-10[/SUP]. Nevertheless no one ought to presume that they are safe and home in heaven simply because they have professed faith in Jesus Christ since all are warned of the risk of falling into sin; "You who fear the Lord, wait for his mercy; do not stray, or else you may fall." [SUP]Sir 2:7[/SUP]. Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]Heb 3:12[/SUP] An elder must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace and the snare of the devil. [SUP]1Ti 3:6-7[/SUP] Of course not every temptation leads to final condemnation but the warnings are there and need to be heeded by the faithful. Good works are a gift themselves - contrary to the view that some present - and thus they do not earn God's grace but they do attract his approval. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For whoever has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. [SUP]Rom 6:6-14[/SUP] This is why the Lord warns his disciples of the coming judgement that he says is about the things that the faithful did for the least of his brethren. [SUP]Mat 25:31-46[/SUP]

"And the grace of salvation produces faith and good works as the scriptures say [SUP]Eph 2:8-10[/SUP]"
"Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]Heb 3:12[/SUP]"

If "the grace of salvation" produces faith in a heart, how can an "evil, unbelieving heart" be 'saved'. Can both hearts really be saved?
Is Heb 3:12 a warning to the visible church about tares among the wheat or threats to our character that our Father WILL correct to prevent the 'saved' from ever reaching that point?

 

[TurtleHare]

I am more responding to My previous post than to yours.
I need to ask your forgiveness.

While the substance was probably appropriate, the tone was definitely not.
The reference to your 'god' WAS indeed shameful on my part.
I apologize for getting too personal and adversarial.

I simply define 'salvation' as an event (like birth) where a believer gains a fresh start (because that was my personal experience) followed by 'sanctification' as a life long walk towards Christ-likeness that includes 'works' as the 'proof' of our ongoing living faith.
You (and I assume the Catholic Church) appear to define 'salvation' as a lifelong process (based upon your statements).

There seems no Christian option but to agree to disagree (and for me to apologize for my behavior).

What you said about the definition between salvation and sanctification verses what Catholics believe is at the core of communications between the groups and because of those differences in thought patterns to guide communications won't be satisfactory in any gain. A long time ago when I first came here someone had posted Where is Jesus on this site and whenever I log in those words echo in my mind so that I'm reminded that this site is for Jesus so we preach him, live him and breathe him and in that we cannot boast in ourselves.

 

[MoreCoffee]

"And the grace of salvation produces faith and good works as the scriptures say [SUP]Eph 2:8-10[/SUP]"
"Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]Heb 3:12[/SUP]"

If "the grace of salvation" produces faith in a heart, how can an "evil, unbelieving heart" be 'saved'. Can both hearts really be saved?
Is Heb 3:12 a warning to the visible church about tares among the wheat or threats to our character that our Father WILL correct to prevent the 'saved' from ever reaching that point?

Do you think that faith is not included in the grace of salvation? The passage says "Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life." [SUP]Ephesians 2:8-10[/SUP] It appears that Paul wants his readers to understand that saving grace instrumentally works through faith and that either the grace or the faith (or both) are a gift from God not the result of works of the Law as some Jews taught. Paul goes on to point to good works as the way of life that comes with saving grace. Is that not how you read the passage? Saving grace creates faith and good works. It is not something that the faithful do independent of God's grace. It is not as if they have some inner life and inner power of their own apart from God that enables them to receive saving grace by an exercise of faith (faith created by themselves). That is precisely what Paul says is not so.

 

[user1234]

Lol mrcoffee...
Classic poor exegesis.
That's when a person has a pet theory, then pulls a bunch of unrelated passages from the bible and tries to string them together to support their theory.
I've even seen ppl do it to try to prove the bible isnt true ... :xD: How insane is that?............
Actually using writings that they insist arent true, in order to prove what theyre telling me is. Lol .... Call it scriptorture!!!
Don't know what version you're using, so I dont know if every word is accurate. A word here or there that's changed can make a big diff.
Let's see what you got here .....

15 verses from Matthew warning about the end times and final judgement, THAT's a fun place to start sharing the gospel and the gift of salvation.
Or are you trying to prove it's NOT a gift .... I'm still not sure what your point is.

17 verses from John ... Nice. God loves us. Jesus loves us. We love the Lord and one another ... Sounds great! No problem here...Let brotherly love continue.

12 verses from James, the classic passage that ppl like to use to prove one side of a works arguement .... It's a standard defense often misused misunderstood, and taken out of context.

10 verses from Ephesians 2 ... Whats that doing there? Classic verses to defend salvation as a gift, not of works. Beautiful passage. But again, ppl use disjointed passages from scripture to bolster their point. Still not seeing what your point is in doing it here, but I'll keep looking at it. Still dont know what bible version youre using. Accuracy is important.

6 verses pulled from the middle of the 2nd chapter of Philippians, which start ....with the word 'Wherefore'.
'Wherefore' or 'Therefore' is a word that is generally used to give a sort of summary of the previous passages, context is important, otherwise, a person can easily be deceived.

Example: A mouse is gray, has four legs, big ears and a tail...
An elephant is gray, has four legs, big ears and a tail...
THEREFORE a mouse is an elephant.

Obviously that is false teaching and manipulation.
Many ppl do that with scripture, and I'm sure you dont want to do that, right?
So placing that passage at the end of the others in the string of ones pulled from other passages in the bible, rather than the context of the previous 11 verses.

Also, Paul wrote this very personal letter from prison to these believers in Philippi as a thank you and an exhortation to joy and consolation for them, as they were troubled by Paul's situation, ... It's a very intimate letter to close friends and brothers in Christ whom he loved dearly, and that was his concern and motive. He was concerned for their joy and peace, even from prison.
What a great man of God and His love.

As saved believers in Jesus, we also can take encouragement from this special letter, it IS God's Word, but it's not a good one for typical theology, except really for verses 5-11, the passage prior to the 'Wherefore'.
So after all of this stringing together of these various passages, which cover very different times, circumstances, and make different points, can you please clarify exactly what the point is you are trying to make here?

Because so far I have yet to hear from you, 'Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ ... So glad Jesus saved us, ... So glad we're friends, ... Just want to let you know God loves you and so do I, ... Hey, can I pray for anyone? ... Ain't it great our God is King of kings and Lord of lords and He's coming again? ...
SOMEthing ... ANYthing along those lines. Some offer of goodness or the love of God held forth to encourage us in our walk with joy in the Lord ...

But all we keep getting is ..... You're not interested in friendship, salvation is a long drawn out process of heavy rules and you-better-watch-out warnings, and obedience, threats, condemnations, and fearful judgements hit over our heads.

Again, I'm not sure of your point, ... Are you trying to help us get saved? I dont know, but this just seems like it's not the outworking of salvation, with a relationship with Jesus the reward, but the outworking of religion, and an uncertain end.

Jesus loves you. He died for your sin.
He rose from the grave and He's coming again!
You can put your faith and trust in Him today and be saved.
That's not heresy ... That's Hallelujah!

 

[atpollard]

Do you think that faith is not included in the grace of salvation? The passage says "Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life." [SUP]Ephesians 2:8-10[/SUP] It appears that Paul wants his readers to understand that saving grace instrumentally works through faith and that either the grace or the faith (or both) are a gift from God not the result of works of the Law as some Jews taught. Paul goes on to point to good works as the way of life that comes with saving grace. Is that not how you read the passage? Saving grace creates faith and good works. It is not something that the faithful do independent of God's grace. It is not as if they have some inner life and inner power of their own apart from God that enables them to receive saving grace by an exercise of faith (faith created by themselves). That is precisely what Paul says is not so.

Yes, I believe that Ephesians 2 is all about salvation and faith.

I have more concerns with taking care when approaching Hebrews, not because Hebrews contains error (it does not) but because Hebrews presents hypothetical (what if) cases which can easily be misunderstood. For example Hebrews 10:26-27 [NKJV] states "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." which could be read to literally imply that there is no repentance possible for willful sin after a person comes to know Christ. That is not the intent of the verse and one will need to work harder to examine more of the context to understand what is really being communicated, but that is one example of my concern with verses plucked from Hebrews.

In your case, you chose the verse Hebrews 3:12 which states "Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God." and I wished only to urge you to examine whether someone with an "evil, unbelieving heart " really qualified as 'saved'. If they do not, then the warning is for the 'visible church' (those who sit in a pew and include both the saved and the unsaved) rather than the 'invisible church' (those who are saved and received the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance).

So my point was not a challenge to your position, but only to the applicability of one specific verse.

 

[atpollard]

Neither is our faith passive or our walk, there are many commandments of Christ in the New Testament and it says that those who love me, obey me

A 'walk' is by definition, not passive. I grant that. (although I feel a slight obligation to add that one cannot 'walk in Christ' until one is first 'in Christ' ... so the walk comes after salvation [the event marked by repentance and a circumcision of the heart that makes us a new creation in Christ]).

Could you expound on this 'non-passive' faith of ours so I can more clearly understand your point.

 

[Lamb]

Lämmchen, I agree that falling away from the faith may result in condemnation (damnation). I agree that good works are a gift from God. I say that faith is a gift from God too. Both faith and good works are intertwined in the saving grace of God and the saving grace of God is Jesus Christ himself. "And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth. (John testified to him and cried out, 'This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks ahead of me because he was before me."') From his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known." [SUP]John 1:14-18[/SUP]

Both salvation and condemnation are pronounced by the Lord. Nobody else is competent to pronounce it. Nobody can earn their way into God's grace because if they could then grace would not be grace. The scriptures say "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace." [SUP]Romans 11:6[/SUP] Yet grace is not passive. Jesus is not passive. The faithful in Christ are not passive. They are the body of Christ and work the works of God in this world for the salvation of many.

What is your definition or theology of what happened at the cross then?