Holiness

[Lamb]

Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; for it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.' If you invoke as Father the one who judges all people impartially according to their deeds, live in reverent fear during the time of your exile.
(1Pe 1:15-17)

Isn't the Holy Spirit helping you in being holy?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Isn't the Holy Spirit helping you in being holy?

for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
Luke 12:12

But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 14:26

And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.
Acts 4:31

 

[Josiah]

Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct

Yup, that's the Law. MoreCoffee, are you? It's a yes/no question.


Yes, my Catholic friend, if you are as morally holy as God is in your everything..... as morally perfect as God is...... with the identical love as Jesus on the Cross.... with a life equal to Christ's..... with an attitude identical to Jesus'........ in thought, word and deed..... in what is done and not done.... 24/7...... from conception to death.....then yes, my Catholic friend, one can look to the Law for justification and one can do as we often see Catholics do: make Christ small and irrelevant, make self as big as possible..... one can boast about how wonderfully goody-goody self is and how disgustingly bad everyone else is.

But friend, the problem is with the "if."



Again, my Catholic brother....

Yup. The "bar" is to be morally perfect - to the same extent as God Himself. Holiness equal to Jesus'. When one has achieved that, they've attained the minimum requirement.

I think to any honest and rational person, it's extremely unlikely we'll EVER attain that (even for Bhakti Hindus who beleive the Divine always gives to us more than sufficient empowering to achieve that - if we but will "tap" all that is available to us). IF any achieved absolute perfection, we'd likely notice - but how of 7.4 billion people currently on the planet, none seems to qualify, none seems to always, perfect "hit the mark" all seem to miss the mark ("sin").




Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."


The word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient, sinless, holy. Otherwise...... So, what God says below is simply the undeniable reality....


Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."




Pax Christi



- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or faint-hearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons?-- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
Hebrews 12:3-17

 

[Lamb]

I'm not sure your point?

We're holy because of the Savior and it's the Holy Spirit who is sanctifying us. Because of original sin we still sin and need to hear the Law that tells us to stop. We need to hear God tell us to repent. And we turn to Him only because we have that ability since by grace through faith we trust in the forgiveness won at the cross.

 

[Josiah]

Lamm...


See post #23 above.


In Justification, it's all about Christ - because Christ is the Savior, so Christ does the saving. In Justification, the Law does what our Catholic friend is causing for all but himself: to condemn us, kill us, show us our terrible sin, show us how we obviously, undeniably FALL SHORT and MISS THE MARK ("sin"), to drive us to our knees pleading only, solely: have mercy on me!

In Sanctification - for those who have been justified (narrow), for those who ARE Christians, the Law serves a secondary purpose - to establish the goal, to establish the path, to show CHRISTIANS the way to live in thought, word and deed. CHRISTIANS never attain it, of course, all CHRISTIANS are like SAINT Paul the "CHIEF of sinners" the "FOREMOST of sinners" who live only, exclusively, solely because of God's mercy and forgiveness, because of the Blood of the Lamb. But Christians' "New Adam" calls CHRISTIANS to this, the Holy Spirit empowers CHRISTIANS for this, and Christians (like Paul) press on toward the goal - although no Christian dies achieving it, at least as compared to God (which is the bar, not as compared to other SINNERS here on Earth; we cannot confuse civil or earthly "righteousness" with divine righteousness since the Law stresses we are to the perfect, holy, loving JUST AS GOD IS).


Some (most notably, some Catholics and Mormons I've found) need to confuse, mix, blend, entangle Law and Gospel, Sanctification and Justification, self and God in order to assist their obsessive need to make Jesus as little, as irrelevant, as unimportant as possible and to make self as big, as important, as glorious as possible.... to make Christianity as much like other religions as possible, to undermine THE KEY point of Christianity: Jesus is THE Savior.



Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

I don't disagree with you. I'm just wondering what MoreCoffee's point is?

Lamm...


See post #23 above.


In Justification, it's all about Christ - because Christ is the Savior, so Christ does the saving. In Justification, the Law does what our Catholic friend is causing for all but himself: to condemn us, kill us, show us our terrible sin, show us how we obviously, undeniably FALL SHORT and MISS THE MARK ("sin"), to drive us to our knees pleading only, soley: have mercy on me!

In Sanctification - for those who have been justified (narrow), for those who ARE Christians, the Law serves a secondary purpose - to establish the goal, to establish the path, to show CHRISTIANS the way to live in thought, word and deed. We'll never attain it, of course, we are like SAINT Paul the "CHIEF of sinners" the "FOREMOST of sinners" who live only, exclusively, solely because of God's mercy and forgiveness, because of the Blood of the Lamb.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or faint-hearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons?--

"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."​

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
Hebrews 12:3-17

 

[Lamb]

You can underline but let's hear what YOU have to say on this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You can underline but let's hear what YOU have to say on this.

Joh 5:39 Study the Scriptures. For you think that in them you have eternal life.

 

[Lamb]

I have eternal life because the Savior died for me and I trust Him. Do you? Or do you look to something else?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have eternal life because the Savior died for me and I trust Him. Do you? Or do you look to something else?

Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer everyone.
(Col 4:6)

 

[Rens]

Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer everyone.
(Col 4:6)

speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[MoreCoffee]

'Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

'You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not murder"; and "whoever murders shall be liable to judgement." But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, "You fool", you will be liable to the hell of fire. So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

'You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell. 'It was also said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce." But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

'Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord." But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

'You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

'You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy." But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
(Mat 5:17-48)

 

[Lamb]

It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption.

Doesn't this verse say it all, our righteousness is because of Him, our holiness is because of Him and our redemption is because of Him, and I believe that is so no man can boast. That verse is 1 Corinthians 1:30

This post above. :thumbsup:

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption.

Doesn't this verse say it all, our righteousness is because of Him, our holiness is because of Him and our redemption is because of Him, and I believe that is so no man can boast. That verse is 1 Corinthians 1:30

Paul said "For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.' Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling-block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength. Consider your own call, brothers and sisters: not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, things that are not, to reduce to nothing things that are, so that no one might boast in the presence of God. He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, in order that, as it is written, 'Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.'" [SUP]1 Corinthians 1:18-31[/SUP] And Paul also said "The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him--though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For "In him we live and move and have our being"; as even some of your own poets have said, "For we too are his offspring."" [SUP]Acts 17:24-28[/SUP] And Jesus said "'Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from ploughing or tending sheep in the field, "Come here at once and take your place at the table"? Would you not rather say to him, "Prepare supper for me, put on your apron and serve me while I eat and drink; later you may eat and drink"? Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, "We are worthless slaves; we have done only what we ought to have done!"'" [SUP]Luke 17:7-10[/SUP]

What ability does anyone have that was not given to them? What good works can anyone do that place God in debt to them? Yet "we have done only what we ought to have done" [SUP]Luke 17:10[/SUP].

 

[Cassia]

offspring."" [SUP]Acts 17:24-28[/SUP] ... What good works can you do that place God in debt to you? Yet "we have done only what we ought to have done".

God is never in debt to us. We are in debt to Him. The only reasonable thing for us to do is to lay ourselves on the altar and work to keep oneself there.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God is never in debt to us. We are in debt to Him. The only reasonable thing for us to do is to lay ourselves on the altar and work to keep oneself there.

Does God want his children on an altar? Jesus is God's passover sacrifice given to save his people from their sins. The angel of death passes over the faithful because of the blood of Jesus Christ that is displayed on their lentil and door posts. I know that the language I have used is borrowed from the Exodus story in the old testament yet it is the language used by the apostles to describe Jesus' work in saving his people from the consequences of their sins and from the corruption of sin.

 

[Cassia]

Does God want his children on an altar?

Yes it's our reasonable service. Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes it's our reasonable service. Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Okay.

You've rightly pointed to God's call for the faithful to present their bodies to him as living sacrifices. In doing so the faithful are active rather than passive. They present themselves. They heed the call to be transformed. To be renewed in mind. Thus they show themselves what God wills. His will is for them to become good, pleasing, and perfect. But none of what they do or the ability to do it or the willingness to do it comes from themselves independent of God because everything that they are and have is God's gift to them. They are active yet not the source of activity. The idea I am stressing is that what the faithful do is both a gift from God and something that the faithful do by his enabling grace. Passivity is not what God calls the faithful to. Passive surrender to God's will for us is not passivity because God wills us to do what is good, pleasing, and perfect.

I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God--what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:1-2