Crackers and cottage cheese - the making of theology.

[MoreCoffee]

Sometimes I wonder why men and women write so much about God. It can seem as if they prefer to write about him more than to work with him. And as I nibble a cracker with cottage cheese on it I get to wondering about God and his perspective on me and us. Seems to me that theology is about speaking well of God but what about doing well and being well and leaving behind all the things - including crackers and cottage cheese - that we gather around ourselves in an attempt to be comfortable and secure. Then I think about home land security and all the things we do to feel safe in a world that we're told is filled with terrorists pretending to be refugees. And that little boy who washed up on the shores of Turkey still in his shorts and polo shirt comes to mind.

My mind wanders through these thoughts while I sit comfortably in a chair nibbling my cracker with cottage cheese on it and it leaves me wondering if I have a heart for God as much as I have a heart for my own comfort? How about you?

 

[Josiah]

You have a point.....

On my desk at home, I have two Catechisms.....

1. Lutheran. It's about 12 pages long, although only about half of that has anything to do with theology (the rest is prayers and things). Not a letter of it has changed in early 500 years: no additions, no deletions, no changes at all.'

2. Catholic. It's nearly 300 pages long. With 2865 points of doctrine in it (if my memory serves). It's the 1994 edition (there have been WAY too many to count - and a new one is in the works, always changing: things added, deleted, reworded....hard to keep up with all the changes).


My Greek Orthodox friend and I have chatted often about the RCC..... She says perhaps her biggest issues is (and I'm quoting here): The Roman Church will not shut up. It will not leave well enough alone. I can see how one would come to that conclusion. ONE of the things that appealed to me about Lutheranism after I left the RC Denomination was the theological humility, the embrace of MYSTERY.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

My copy of The Catechism of the Catholic Church is copyright 1994, 1997. It's copyright page says it is the 1994 English Translation of the French edition later corrected in accordance with the Latin "typical edition" (hence the second date 1997). The Typical Edition in Latin is the edition from which all the others are to be translated and to which they are to be compared for accuracy and fidelity. Perhaps, Josiah, you've confused "printing" with "edition" or conflated the ideas and that is why you think you have "way too many to count". I have two editions in English, one from 1994 and one from 1997. I have several printings, one from 1994, one from 2005, one from 2013 - the 2013 printing is in a nice small form factor (A5 I think) while the ones from 1994 and 2005 are larger (around B4 I think).

 

[Josiah]

My copy of The Catechism of the Catholic Church is copyright 1994, 1997. It's copyright page says it is the 1994 English Translation of the French edition later corrected in accordance with the Latin "typical edition" (hence the second date 1997). The Typical Edition in Latin is the edition from which all the others are to be translated and to which they are to be compared for accuracy and fidelity. Perhaps, Josiah, you've confused "printing" with "edition" or conflated the ideas and that is why you think you have "way too many to count". I have two editions in English, one from 1994 and one from 1997. I have several printings, one from 1994, one from 2005, one from 2013 - the 2013 printing is in a nice small form factor (A5 I think) while the ones from 1994 and 2005 are larger (around B4 I think).

So, you want us to accept that the Catechism of The Catholic Church - as you have it, and as I do too (I also have the latest edition - the 1994 one, the new one is not out yet) is identical to one from say 33 AD? All 2,865 paragraphs of dogma, the only difference is how it might be translated into Engish and the printing date of it? Come on..... If fact, would you even argue that for 1529, for the official, approved Catechism of your denomination from then? NOT ONE letter has changed since then in the Latin, not ONE paragraph added or deleted or changed - the same identical 2,865 points of theology? The ONLY difference being how it's translated into English and the printing date printed on it? Come on.....


From The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops....

The current Catechism of the Catholic Church originated with a recommendation made at the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops in 1985. In 1986 Pope John Paul II appointed a Commission of Cardinals and Bishops to develop a compendium of Catholic doctrine. In 1989 the Commission sent the text to all the Bishops of the world for consultation. In 1990 the Commission examined and evaluated over 24,000 amendments suggested by the world's bishops. The final draft is considerably different from the one that was circulated in 1989. In 1991 the Commission prepared the text for the Holy Father's official approval. On June 25, 1992 Pope John Paul II officially approved the definitive version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. On December 8, 1992 Pope John Paul II promulgated the Catechism with an apostolic constitution.

My copy says it was copywritten in 1994. Evidently it was approved in 1992. I have no idea when it was translated into English but it had to be after June 25, 1992. That makes your denominations about 450 years newer than mine, or put another way, yours was added to and/or deleted from and/or altered last in 1992. Mine in 1529. 1992 is later than 1529. I agree with your point about leaving well enough alone, but again - the Lutheran Catechism last had anything whatsoever change in 1529, yours in 1992. Which is later, 1992 or 1529? Jesus' log/speck point springs to my mind, my friend.




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh, I forgot to observe that my printed copy of the Catechism of the Council of Trent (in English translation) is from 1923 being a translation from the edition of 1566. My copy of saint Augustine's Catechism in English translation is copyright 1999. The original is from his Latin text of 419 AD. The last of these is around 200 pages, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is 688 pages (nice small pages) and the Trent Catechism is 642 pages. From what I see in these works there is little to differentiate one from the others except in one aspect, the more recent works have more explanatory material and answer more of the issues and heresies that arose between each work's date of writing. Augustine deals with Arian, Donatist, Manichee, and Palagian errors. Trent deals with Catholic errors and corruptions as well as Protestant errors. The Catechism of the Catholic Church deals with modernism, atheism, and other philosophical and moral errors of our times.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, the pages of the Catechism of the Catholic Church are not "all dogma". About two thirds of it deal with moral teaching, liturgy, and prayer. One third is specifically doctrinal. It's the first third. The Catechism itself points this out in its table of contents.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Now, let's return to the topic of this thread - a serious topic. Being holy in deeds not merely in words as it touches the treatment of widows and orphans that we encounter and refugees who come to us for shelter and safety.

 

[JPPT1974]

As it is not just words. But actions indeed More Coffee!

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, the pages of the Catechism of the Catholic Church are not "all dogma". About two thirds of it deal with moral teaching, liturgy, and prayer. One third is specifically doctrinal. It's the first third. The Catechism itself points this out in its table of contents.

...and it's all constantly changing - which is why even the very short summery of such for laity is constantly changing.


Which is later? 1529 or 1992? It's not too hard of a question.....



Again, the last time my Lutheran Catechism changed anything - a single letter - ANYTHING added or deleted or modified - anything whatsoever - was in 1529. It's stilll 12 pages long in my edition (although much of that is prayers and such, certainly not all doctrine). The latest edition of the official Catholic Catechism was last changed in 1992 - although a changed Catechism is currently in the works. These dates have NOTHING to do with translations or printings but when the Catechism was last CHANGED. MarkFL, our math expert, has departed but I'm sure you know which is later: 1529 or 1992. Which has "changing teachings".


I just find it (again, yet again) so ironic that you - our resident RC Denomination defender - you of all posters here - yet again are decrying something that your denomination is perhaps most guilty of - or at least plenty so. Once again, yet again, reading your post, I could not help but think of Jesus' "log/speck" point or the old proverb about "pot calling kettle black." You make a valid point (as you often do) - just fail to acknowledge your criticism apples AT LEAST as much to your denomination as any other (and often, more so), so ironic coming from one who is so preoccupied with defending your individual denomination....


To your OTHER point, yes, I agree - it would be good if we put more effort into loving and denominations (such as the RCC) puttlng less into constantly inventing more unique, divisive dogmas (such as the Assumption of Mary, the Infallibility of Our Denomination's Human Leader, Mary - The CO-Redeemer, etc.



- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah you're post is fftopic:

 

[atpollard]

Sometimes I wonder why men and women write so much about God. It can seem as if they prefer to write about him more than to work with him. And as I nibble a cracker with cottage cheese on it I get to wondering about God and his perspective on me and us. Seems to me that theology is about speaking well of God but what about doing well and being well and leaving behind all the things - including crackers and cottage cheese - that we gather around ourselves in an attempt to be comfortable and secure. Then I think about home land security and all the things we do to feel safe in a world that we're told is filled with terrorists pretending to be refugees. And that little boy who washed up on the shores of Turkey still in his shorts and polo shirt comes to mind.

My mind wanders through these thoughts while I sit comfortably in a chair nibbling my cracker with cottage cheese on it and it leaves me wondering if I have a heart for God as much as I have a heart for my own comfort? How about you?

Respectfully, there is little that I can do about terrorists, so I leave the matter in God's hands.
Even if I tear my clothes, cover my head with ashes, weep and mourn, sell everything that I have and give the money to a refugee relief effort, and dedicate the rest of my life to helping children in refugee camps in the Middle East ... the little boy in Turkey will still be dead.

It may be a bit unreasonable to flagellate ourselves over things which are beyond our control.
However, what about all of the things that are not beyond our control?

Would you like to do something HUGE in the world? Something utterly life transforming? Right from your sofa?
If your county is anything like my county, there is a shortage of foster homes. We were an emergency placement shelter, which meant that after 10 weeks of once a week evening classes and an inspection of our home, we would get a call on a Friday night that the sheriff had just raided a Meth Lab and arrested the adults and had two or three neglected children that Child Services would not be able to process and find regular placement for until sometime Monday, so they needed emergency shelter over the weekend. That was us. We took care of children who often no one even knew their names, some didn't talk. They seldom came with clothing that you would use as a wash rag on a car, let alone something for children to wear. Often they came in a diaper and blanket and nothing else. We met them at what was probably the worst day of their lives. Our job was to make them feel safe and loved and to figure out what they needed until someone could take them in for long term placement. It means going to lots of garage sales and collecting clothing and shoes and backpacks for a quarter or a dollar and sorting them by boy/girl and size into bins. God would provide by sometimes, people would learn what we do and just give us piles of clothes for the children. My wife (an RN) had the local Pediatrician on speed dial since often as not, they arrived sick ... sometimes life threateningly sick.

Every child left our house clean, fed, treated for whatever medical condition they were suffering from and with clean clothes that fit and that we would be willing to dress our child in. (We had to stop when my wife became disabled). The point is not "how wonderful we were", God had provided us with the gifts and opportunities to do what he would have us do. The point is that there are children in YOUR area that need someone and a shortage of someones to help. You need a bedroom and a bed (unless you want to care for an infant, then you need a crib). The opportunity to do great things and make a difference is right inside your comfortable home.


Maybe you are not called to do something HUGE. Would you like to do something small and important?
Do you eat lunch? I eat lunch. Almost everyone I know eats lunch. Guess what, your church is full of people who are going to eat lunch alone this Sunday. Ask someone out to lunch and get to know them. That's it. That's all there is to it. Do you think you have sufficient 'spiritual gifting' to eat lunch and get to know someone? The greatest task that Jesus called us to was to be part of one another lives. We seem to want to turn everything into a program or a major production, but God doesn't require that. He just asks us to get to know one another and to care a little about each other. All of the super spiritual 'one another' verses will take care of themselves.

So what are you doing for lunch this Sunday?
Think about the possibilities.
(How hard can it be?) :smile:

 

[MoreCoffee]

The little boy washed up on the shore in Turkey helps to remind people that compassion counts for something. And something can be done without the something being HUGE. Writing to your congressmen and senator to ask that compassion be shown to widows, orphans, and refugees is something to do. Giving some funds to help refugees and widows and orphans helps too. Prayer also helps - even if only by shaping one's conscience more and more into the image of Christ.

 

[atpollard]

The little boy washed up on the shore in Turkey helps to remind people that compassion counts for something. And something can be done without the something being HUGE. Writing to your congressmen and senator to ask that compassion be shown to widows, orphans, and refugees is something to do. Giving some funds to help refugees and widows and orphans helps too. Prayer also helps - even if only by shaping one's conscience more and more into the image of Christ.

Maybe, but I don't like throwing money at problems to make them go away. I can't help but think of "I will not present burnt offerings that have cost me nothing!” [1 Chronicles 21:24]

 

[MoreCoffee]

Maybe, but I don't like throwing money at problems to make them go away. I can't help but think of "I will not present burnt offerings that have cost me nothing!” [1 Chronicles 21:24]

The implication of that message from 1 Chron 21:24 is that one will present a burnt offering that did cost something. The message isn't "I am not going to present burnt offerings" or "I am going to delay my offerings for an unspecified time". Inertia is the friend of wickedness.

But the king answered, "No, I will pay you the full price. I will not give as an offering to the LORD something that belongs to you, something that costs me nothing. 1Ch 21:24 GNB

 

[atpollard]

The little boy washed up on the shore in Turkey helps to remind people that compassion counts for something. And something can be done without the something being HUGE. Writing to your congressmen and senator to ask that compassion be shown to widows, orphans, and refugees is something to do. Giving some funds to help refugees and widows and orphans helps too. Prayer also helps - even if only by shaping one's conscience more and more into the image of Christ.

Maybe, but I don't like throwing money at problems to make them go away. I can't help but think of "I will not present burnt offerings that have cost me nothing!” [1 Chronicles 21:24]

The implication of that message from 1 Chron 21:24 is that one will present a burnt offering that did cost something. The message isn't "I am not going to present burnt offerings" or "I am going to delay my offerings for an unspecified time". Inertia is the friend of wickedness.

But the king answered, "No, I will pay you the full price. I will not give as an offering to the LORD something that belongs to you, something that costs me nothing. 1Ch 21:24 GNB

Writing a letter or sending some money or offering a little prayer to 'help' someone that I do not know far away still feels like a bit of a band-aid for the conscience. It still leaves me minimally inconvenienced, sitting on the sofa, eating crackers and cottage cheese. [cottage cheese, really? we need to talk. peanut butter, or cream cheese or a real cheese like cheddar!] I think walking the talk should involve a real cost. It should cost some real time, dealing with a real person, getting involved in their messy life and letting them into your messy life. Then we start to BE the body of Christ and interact with one another ... the first step to caring for and loving one another.

God Bless,
Arthur

 

[Josiah]

ONE of my points of guilt (and yes, Lutherans don't much go for guilt, lol) .... is that I tend to do what Arthur (atpollard) decries: I tend to throw money at it. I'm careful to give 20% of my income (aside from taxes - I don't GIVE that, the government TAKES it, lol) - half goes to my church, half goes to other charities (some the result of my pro-life passion, some to social agencies). I "feel" good because I'm helping orphans, hungry, etc. But am I? No.... perhaps the money I give is empowering OTHERS to do so, but I'm not. I have a HUGE, HUGE respect for people who adopt children who NEED them (go see the movie "Lion" or read the book it comes from "A Long Way Home") but I'm not so willing to do that myself.... I have elaborate ways to justify this but it's all excuses. Truth is: I (like most Americans) have plenty of money, I can SPARE what I give and not really impact my life at all... it's easy, it costs ME nothing I can't easily and with little to no involvement, spare. I think Jesus (and Mother Teresa) had something quite different in mind.....


Of course, there's another problem, too. Thinking whatever we are doing (even if it IS Mother Theresa) is somehow impressive, somehow makes us less sinful and more saved, somehow makes it so I DESERVE heaven more than the bloat next to me. It actually can HINDER our relationship to God in the performance (part of Jesus' issue with the Pharisees). And I think PART of the reason why Jesus tells us to do our good deeds in secret. The problem with doing good is that we think it makes us good, makes us worthy of something, makes us..... deserving. As Jesus said, "No one is good but God alone."



Pax Christi


- Josiah

 

[Rens]

Writing a letter or sending some money or offering a little prayer to 'help' someone that I do not know far away still feels like a bit of a band-aid for the conscience. It still leaves me minimally inconvenienced, sitting on the sofa, eating crackers and cottage cheese. [cottage cheese, really? we need to talk. peanut butter, or cream cheese or a real cheese like cheddar!] I think walking the talk should involve a real cost. It should cost some real time, dealing with a real person, getting involved in their messy life and letting them into your messy life. Then we start to BE the body of Christ and interact with one another ... the first step to caring for and loving one another.

God Bless,
Arthur

If you can't go to Greece and take someone back in your car so they don't have to sleep in a tent in the winter anymore then you can at least help Amnesty and write a letter to your prime minister to do something about it. We have enough unused holiday homes here and we pay at least 30 percent taxes, that they don't have to spend on a bigger road or culture on tv. I read a prophecy from 1960 or something that the rich countries will treat those refugees who would come hard like they did with the Jews before WWII and then the measure of our sins will be full.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Writing a letter or sending some money or offering a little prayer to 'help' someone that I do not know far away still feels like a bit of a band-aid for the conscience. It still leaves me minimally inconvenienced, sitting on the sofa, eating crackers and cottage cheese. [cottage cheese, really? we need to talk. peanut butter, or cream cheese or a real cheese like cheddar!] I think walking the talk should involve a real cost. It should cost some real time, dealing with a real person, getting involved in their messy life and letting them into your messy life. Then we start to BE the body of Christ and interact with one another ... the first step to caring for and loving one another.

God Bless,
Arthur

I didn't suggest a "little" prayer or a "some" money. Be generous if that is what the Spirit within you urges.