Evangelical Only Tongues .valid in varying forms. A wider view.

[Sword7]

Why do you assume one answer when I have repeatedly stated that the answer is not relevant to the discussion? Why does an observation that something is not relevant lead you to any one particular answer? The whole point of not answering is to not provide a piece of information, and if you merely choose to assume an answer then you are drawing information from nothing. Drawing information from nothing typically says more about the person making the assumption that anything else.



Who is lying here? I'm quite happy having an open and honest conversation about what Scripture says. Whether my role in the body is as a hand or a nose or an eye or the brain or the fingernail that scratches the gunk out from between the toes isn't relevant to what Paul says about the body, or what the Bible in general says about the gifts of the Spirit.

What's wrong with keeping a discussion primarily theological rather than focusing on personal experience? I'm sure you wouldn't want to risk building theologies based on personal experience over Scriptural truth, would you?

your having an open conversation you say ? great . be open then and answer the question
Do you Speak in tongues yes or no ? since your having the conversation with me and i do find it very relevvant to the topic (being that IT IS the topic ) . the scriptures involve us and our interactive response to them .So i'm still asking the question

however since omittance is so often in itself evidence of the answer , from hence forth -until you correct me ,
I shall discuss the topic with the understanding that you Do not Speak in tongues .

What abilities of the holy Spirit do you walk in, move in ,operate in ?or experience, (or whatever description you choose) then ?

 

[tango]

your having an open conversation you say ? great . be open then and answer the question
Do you Speak in tongues yes or no ? since your having the conversation with me and i do find it very relevvant to the topic (being that IT IS the topic ) . the scriptures involve us and our interactive response to them .So i'm still asking the question

however since omittance is so often in itself evidence of the answer , from hence forth -until you correct me ,
I shall discuss the topic with the understanding that you Do not Speak in tongues .

What abilities of the holy Spirit do you walk in, move in ,operate in ?or experience, (or whatever description you choose) then ?

I'm having an open conversation about what Scripture says, as opposed to a conversation about what I personally do.

Focus on what Scripture says and don't worry yourself about what I do. It's my responsibility to make sure my life aligns with Scripture, not yours. Whether I speak in tongues, prophesy, raise the dead, or spend my life getting drunk in strip clubs, isn't relevant to a discussion of what Scripture says.

Feel free to make whatever assumptions you feel are appropriate but since we're talking about Scripture rather than my life even your assumptions aren't relevant here. If it can be shown through Scripture that all Christians should speak in tongues, or that tongues have ceased and are no longer relevant, or that tongues can only be a demonic manifestation, or that tongues are just a load of made up gibberish, then it's for you and I to ensure that our lives align with Scriptural truth.

So, do you want to talk Scripture or are you more concerned with endlessly asking me questions where the answers aren't relevant and where you can't verify anything I say? At least if we talk Scripture we can both look up the references.

 

[Sword7]

I'm having an open conversation about what Scripture says, as opposed to a conversation about what I personally do.

Focus on what Scripture says and don't worry yourself about what I do. It's my responsibility to make sure my life aligns with Scripture, not yours. Whether I speak in tongues, prophesy, raise the dead, or spend my life getting drunk in strip clubs, isn't relevant to a discussion of what Scripture says.

Feel free to make whatever assumptions you feel are appropriate but since we're talking about Scripture rather than my life even your assumptions aren't relevant here. If it can be shown through Scripture that all Christians should speak in tongues, or that tongues have ceased and are no longer relevant, or that tongues can only be a demonic manifestation, or that tongues are just a load of made up gibberish, then it's for you and I to ensure that our lives align with Scriptural truth.

So, do you want to talk Scripture or are you more concerned with endlessly asking me questions where the answers aren't relevant and where you can't verify anything I say? At least if we talk Scripture we can both look up the references.

since the topic is about tongues ,which is spoken by the believer who has recieved the holy Spirit it is totally relevant to the topic .

do you speak in tongues ? no .
Are you being open about that ?NO obviously not .

so what we do speaks louder then what we say . your words says your want to be open, But ,your ACTIONS say your not being open at all .
so since by your action you show an unwillingness to actually have an open conversation -this conversation is over .

 

[tango]

since the topic is about tongues ,which is spoken by the believer who has recieved the holy Spirit it is totally relevant to the topic .

The topic is tongues, as described by Scripture. Not what you or I happen to do.

do you speak in tongues ? no .
Are you being open about that ?NO obviously not .

Assumptions based on nothing at all, and as I've said repeatedly what I do isn't relevant to a discussion of what Scripture says.

so what we do speaks louder then what we say . your words says your want to be open, But ,your ACTIONS say your not being open at all .
so since by your action you show an unwillingness to actually have an open conversation -this conversation is over .

If you're more interested in talking about me than talking about Scripture then yes, the conversation is pretty much over. I was obviously mistaken in my belief that the discussion was about what Scripture has to say about speaking in tongues.

 

[Sword7]

Note: I find the prefix "evangelical" somewhat to broad. For example Lutheran is sometimes classed under that umbrella.but on this topic are dissimilar in the extreme.
------
Its a sort of long post. But best not replied to in part or after only reading part of it.

To the topic.

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. "

Does God need this to be interpreted to be valid ?
so we see that it is fully valid to speak in prayer to god, in tongues as given to ALL believers when they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit . all believers who DO have the Holy Spirit can do this .

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;......"
Do all experience this kind of tongue where the hearer can understand it in their own language ?
so we see that it is an aspect of tongues that is manifested when it is needed as a witness to the unbeliever .john G lake testified of desiring to tell a group of workers at the docks about Jesus and the holy Spirit told him do so , so stepping over he began to speak and tongues came out of his mouth. and for 30 minutes he explained the gospel to them in their own tongue .And there are more and more testimonies of this occurring.but you wont find it occurring among those who do not leave their warm Sunday seat and Go out into the world to share the gospel in obedience to the Holy Spirit (NONE are exempt from the call to do so )


and then there is the gathering of believers .

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret. But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.…
So we see here that we ARE to have tongues AND songs (given by inspiration of the spirit not by megga BANDS for $profit and fame )AND Teachings (by inspiration of the spirit not the same guy waffling on every week ) AND revelations (the eyes of your understanding being Enlightened .which causes deeper understanding to be revealed .Not NEW doctrine to be introduced )

AND then we have interpretation where tongues are spoken out loudly by the unction of the Holy Spirit . And it is Only the loud declaration of tongues, in a gathering, that is restricted if no one is presently being given the ability to interpret .the person is then instructed to be silent of the loud declaration.. but " speak only to himself AND TO GOD . So we see he is still fully allowed to speak in tongues which speaks to god and utters mysteries in the Spirit and prays the perfect will of God . just quietly .

in summary all these varying forms of tongues are valid .
Do all speak the form which the foreigner can understand ? No ,only when the holy spirit causes it to be so.
Do all speak the form of loud declaration in a gathered setting?no .
Do all speak in the form which speaks mysteries to God causing them to pray"in the spirit " rather then just the understanding?
All who have the Holy Spirit "can" .for the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart.so when the heart is Full of the holy Spirit,it will flow out from the mouth.

when he says it is better to prophecy he is speaking of the corporate setting only .that it may benefit the hearers .

When he says if i speak in tongues but have not love , this can be applied to ANY of abilities of the Holy Spirit
-in context of all this we must remember that Paul is replying to communications FROM the Corinthians asking for advice (we assume) perhaps they had asked him hey our meeting is really loud and confusing ..and so he gives godly council on what to do about that . it is important to read his letter in context of whom he is writing to and what question he may be replying to .

it is also important to remember that tongues is NOT the be all and end all of the gifts.
It is in fact an ability given by the same holy Spirit that discerns spirits ,heals ,does miracles ,is patient, kind, long-suffering ,preservers and above all LOVES .
it is a tool of edification prayer and evangelism .For ALL the gifts are given to DO the work of the lord which is the work of the GOSPEL .

so if a person speaks in tongues but never does the work of the gospel he deceives himself .
for those that are hearers of the word but Not doers ,DECEIVE THEMSELVES .
i was told the guy from the Isuza street revival stated one time
"if the baptism of the holy Spirit becomes ONLY about tongues then all the other gifts will suffer and it will open the way for every witch and demonic spirit to enter the church " (quote requires verification)Hello newagist style charisma and kundalini type occurrence based on the enjoyment and seeking of what is FELT .goose bumps and angel feathers .(the carnal spirit of THIS world that works in the children of disobedience :ie -all those that refuse to obey and go and do the work of the Gospel ) rather then what is of FAITH in the WORD of GOD .and are by nature the children of wrath in their continence of the sin of disobedience .

this is the topic . and you don't have tongues without a speaker of it . its not separable . if the topic were about the language of "waray" then i would ask you "do you speak in waray" . but tis about the supernatural ability to speak out ,from the heart by the utterance of the holy Spirit . so when a person begins to discuss it it is a perfectly valid question to ask . do you speak in tongues .
you will also note the topic covers other abilities also .
and i may be wrong but i recall asking if you experience or work in and with any of these "other abilities " also .

but you are like a person who has a book on how to repair engines . you know the book very well you like to discuss the book in myriad of ways .but you never go and fix engines . and the whole point of the book is to aid you to go and fix engines .

 

[tango]

this is the topic . and you don't have tongues without a speaker of it . its not separable . if the topic were about the language of "waray" then i would ask you "do you speak in waray" . but tis about the supernatural ability to speak out ,from the heart by the utterance of the holy Spirit . so when a person begins to discuss it it is a perfectly valid question to ask . do you speak in tongues .
you will also note the topic covers other abilities also .
and i may be wrong but i recall asking if you experience or work in and with any of these "other abilities " also .

but you are like a person who has a book on how to repair engines . you know the book very well you like to discuss the book in myriad of ways .but you never go and fix engines . and the whole point of the book is to aid you to go and fix engines .

You make my point very well.

If I read a book about home electrics I'll soon learn that before working on a circuit you need to shut it off at the breaker box. This is good practice regardless of whether or not I have personally worked on a circuit, opened a breaker box, or shut off a circuit. And, just in case you feel tempted to ask, my experience or otherwise with home electrics isn't relevant to the fact it's good practice to kill the circuit before working on it.

So I'll repeat my point, the topic is what Scripture says about gifts of the Spirit (be that tongues, prophecy, whatever) rather than whether you or I or anyone else actually operates in any of those gifts.

Here's the thing. If it can be shown that all Christians should speak in tongues then anyone who doesn't speak in tongues needs to examine themselves to figure out why. Likewise if it can be shown that tongues have ceased and is therefore not a gift of the Spirit anyone who does "speak in tongues" (in quotes because under these circumstances it would be anything but the gift described in Scripture) needs to examine themselves to figure out just what it is they are doing. Equally if it can be shown that some Christians may speak in tongues and others may not then those who do not speak in tongues need not specifically examine themselves and those who do need only examine themselves as far as the general exhortation to "test all things" and the like.

So to go back to the question, are you interested in discussing what Scripture teaches or are you more concerned with making assumptions about what I personally do?

 

[Sword7]

You make my point very well.

If I read a book about home electrics I'll soon learn that before working on a circuit you need to shut it off at the breaker box. This is good practice regardless of whether or not I have personally worked on a circuit, opened a breaker box, or shut off a circuit. And, just in case you feel tempted to ask, my experience or otherwise with home electrics isn't relevant to the fact it's good practice to kill the circuit before working on it.

So I'll repeat my point, the topic is what Scripture says about gifts of the Spirit (be that tongues, prophecy, whatever) rather than whether you or I or anyone else actually operates in any of those gifts.

Here's the thing. If it can be shown that all Christians should speak in tongues then anyone who doesn't speak in tongues needs to examine themselves to figure out why. Likewise if it can be shown that tongues have ceased and is therefore not a gift of the Spirit anyone who does "speak in tongues" (in quotes because under these circumstances it would be anything but the gift described in Scripture) needs to examine themselves to figure out just what it is they are doing. Equally if it can be shown that some Christians may speak in tongues and others may not then those who do not speak in tongues need not specifically examine themselves and those who do need only examine themselves as far as the general exhortation to "test all things" and the like.

So to go back to the question, are you interested in discussing what Scripture teaches or are you more concerned with making assumptions about what I personally do?

are you an electrician ?

 

[JSales]

are you an electrician ?

Do you kill the circuit?

 

[Rens]

:;-D:

 

[Sword7]

Do you kill the circuit?

lol maybe ,who knows . but if we are talking electrical analogies i'm going to ask if i'm speaking to an electrician and person who operates in the abilities of the electrical trade
If we are talking the spiritual gift tongues i'm going to ask if i'm speaking to a person who operates in the abilities i f the holy spirit by speaking in tongues .

In both cases it is relevant to the topic .There is a massive difference between intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge .
intellectual knowledge only wants to discuss the text book . but discussing a manual over and over and never applying what it instructs is an incredible waste of time .

if a man was about to operate on our child's brain we would not be too keen if he has only ever "read the text book " but never ever operated .
huge difference between knowledge "about " a thing and knowledge "in " a thing .

 

[tango]

are you an electrician ?

Funny you should ask that, because it's not relevant to the point.

One point that is relevant is that it's entirely possible that, under the right circumstances, someone who knows enough to know when to follow and when not to follow the electrical guide may decide it's appropriate to do something else. One would hope they knew what they were doing and made a specific decision that the circumstances made it appropriate, for example when I had some major rewiring work the electrician needed to test the rapid circuit breakers and the easiest way to do it was to create a short circuit while the circuit was live. He knew enough to know it was an appropriate course of action.

The kicker here is that if we want to argue something that isn't in Scripture we're essentially saying we know more than the author. That seems unlikely.

 

[tango]

lol maybe ,who knows . but if we are talking electrical analogies i'm going to ask if i'm speaking to an electrician and person who operates in the abilities of the electrical trade

Or you could talk to the general handyman who knows about electrics even if it is largely from reading a book. The person who has never touched a wire in their life but has read a book still knows vastly more than the person who has never done either.

If we are talking the spiritual gift tongues i'm going to ask if i'm speaking to a person who operates in the abilities i f the holy spirit by speaking in tongues .

Of course a huge difference is that spiritual gifts can't be learned by secular means. It may be relevant to discuss specific experiences with someone who has a comparable experience to share but ultimately Scripture holds eternal truth regardless of the experiences of the reader. If Scripture says something is not an acceptable thing to do then experience means nothing - if Scripture can be shown to say that all Christians should speak in tongues then "well I don't speak in tongues and I'm a Christian" doesn't hold any water, and likewise if Scripture can be shown to say that tongues have ceased and are therefore not from God it doesn't work to insist "well I speak in tongues and I know it's from God".

In both cases it is relevant to the topic .There is a massive difference between intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge .
intellectual knowledge only wants to discuss the text book . but discussing a manual over and over and never applying what it instructs is an incredible waste of time .

I guess you don't trust the Spirit then? If you're talking about a secular skill (i.e. one that can be learned by human effort) then it's reasonable to ask the person whether they have experience of the job you want them to do. Of course everybody has to start somewhere, so you may decide to accept a less experienced workman in exchange for a lower price. But if something truly comes from the Holy Spirit then if the Spirit gives the gift we can be confident that the Spirit will do what is needed to make it all work. You might decline an offer of electrical work from someone who didn't know which end of a screwdriver to hold but would you decline the offer of prayer from someone until you could check out their praying credentials? How can the Spirit ever perform a first miracle through someone, if people take the kind of attitude here and expect to see experience first?

If anything it's more important that the person shows the fruit of the Spirit than whether they can provide evidence of operating in specific gifts. After all, Jesus never said we would know them by their signs and wonders, or their performing of miracles, or their speaking in tongues. He said we would know them by their fruit.

 

[Sword7]

Or you could talk to the general handyman who knows about electrics even if it is largely from reading a book. The person who has never touched a wire in their life but has read a book still knows vastly more than the person who has never done either.



Of course a huge difference is that spiritual gifts can't be learned by secular means. It may be relevant to discuss specific experiences with someone who has a comparable experience to share but ultimately Scripture holds eternal truth regardless of the experiences of the reader. If Scripture says something is not an acceptable thing to do then experience means nothing - if Scripture can be shown to say that all Christians should speak in tongues then "well I don't speak in tongues and I'm a Christian" doesn't hold any water, and likewise if Scripture can be shown to say that tongues have ceased and are therefore not from God it doesn't work to insist "well I speak in tongues and I know it's from God".



I guess you don't trust the Spirit then? If you're talking about a secular skill (i.e. one that can be learned by human effort) then it's reasonable to ask the person whether they have experience of the job you want them to do. Of course everybody has to start somewhere, so you may decide to accept a less experienced workman in exchange for a lower price. But if something truly comes from the Holy Spirit then if the Spirit gives the gift we can be confident that the Spirit will do what is needed to make it all work. You might decline an offer of electrical work from someone who didn't know which end of a screwdriver to hold but would you decline the offer of prayer from someone until you could check out their praying credentials? How can the Spirit ever perform a first miracle through someone, if people take the kind of attitude here and expect to see experience first?

If anything it's more important that the person shows the fruit of the Spirit than whether they can provide evidence of operating in specific gifts. After all, Jesus never said we would know them by their signs and wonders, or their performing of miracles, or their speaking in tongues. He said we would know them by their fruit.

well isn't it odd. i have spent most of my working life within the electrical trade and there is one thing that is absolutely certain. we do an awful lot of FIX ups for people who read the Manuel and are very conversant with the manual .but don't have the faintest idea what they are DOING . because there remains a huge difference between reading a Manual and hands on experiential learning .

you will recall i also asked you .. what "other gifts or abilities do you operate in " ( since it became rather obvious that you do not operate in tongues )

so there is one thing i know for sure . when some one who doesn't speak in tongues , never spoke in tongues ,does not believe they can ever speak in tongues (which implies they don't believe Gods promises that -"And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.…"

i'm hardly going to give much weight to their unbelieving based opinions on the topic .because until they have Faith and show they do by their actions ,that is all they have to say on the matter ,their carnal minded opinions .

you have not because you ask not and when you ask you ask amiss .

 

[tango]

well isn't it odd. i have spent most of my working life within the electrical trade and there is one thing that is absolutely certain. we do an awful lot of FIX ups for people who read the Manuel and are very conversant with the manual .but don't have the faintest idea what they are DOING . because there remains a huge difference between reading a Manual and hands on experiential learning .

Sure, the key difference (where analogies start to break down) is that home electrics (and indeed any other form of electrics) is a subject that is learned by normal mortal means (study, practice etc). I can pick up a book and learn how electricity works, how circuit breakers work, what sort of wiring to expect, how to join wires together, how to run a switching circuit and so on. And then I can hone that knowledge by actually turning off a breaker and making a change to an existing circuit.

With a spiritual gift it's not something we can specifically learn how to do. It's possible to learn to heal someone using natural (some might refer to secular, carnal, whatever) means but if God hasn't given us the divine gift of healing we can practice all we want and it won't help. Likewise if God hasn't given us the gift of tongues we can mumble and mutter and practice making weird shapes and sounds and it's worth precisely nothing.

you will recall i also asked you .. what "other gifts or abilities do you operate in " ( since it became rather obvious that you do not operate in tongues )

You've decided to make some assumptions based on nothing. I wouldn't call that obvious.

so there is one thing i know for sure . when some one who doesn't speak in tongues , never spoke in tongues ,does not believe they can ever speak in tongues (which implies they don't believe Gods promises that -"And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.…"

Except "whatever you ask in my name" doesn't mean we can simply stick "in Jesus name" into our prayers and assume they will be granted. That teaching makes us into gods and God into our servant. God isn't some kind of cosmic vending machine where we put in the suitably worded prayers, pull the lever and expect to get the exact product we selected. Nor do we get to call 1-800-BAD-PRAY if our prayers didn't have the result we'd hoped for.

You're also making assumptions on top of assumptions by grouping so many people together. Of those who do not speak in tongues some acknowledge the gift is for today but they don't happen to have been given it (and of those some seek the gift and some do not), some acknowledge the gift is for today but don't believe they qualify for it (however they define "qualify", usually this perspective comes from the idea that we have to earn the gifts or somehow demonstrate ourselves to be worthy), and some don't acknowledge the gift as being for today at all. As I said before there's a world of difference between the stance of "I don't have that gift" and "I can never have that gift" but here you sweep them all aside as if they were one and the same.

i'm hardly going to give much weight to their unbelieving based opinions on the topic .because until they have Faith and show they do by their actions ,that is all they have to say on the matter ,their carnal minded opinions .

So in other words if someone has a different opinion to you then their views are worthless? No interest in seeing the fruit of their lives, merely an assumption that because you assumed (based on whatever criteria you happen to be using) they don't speak in tongues they have nothing useful to say?

Let me look up the verse where Jesus said we'd know people by whether or not they speak in tongues....

you have not because you ask not and when you ask you ask amiss .

You assume I have not (again) and you assume that I didn't ask, and you further assume that I ask amiss. It's interesting to see you shifting the entire focus to whether or not I speak in tongues, make numerous sweeping assumptions, and completely ignore the notion of judging people by their fruit.

 

[atpollard]

You are right. I have found, by experience, that most of the people who say they can't speak in tongues just do not believe they can speak in tongues or do not have the desire to do so, even though they have the Holy Spirit. Case in point, there is a young lady who I disciple.She say she didn't speak in tongues but she had the Holy Spirit. So I began to minister to her that she had the ability to speak because she had the Holy Spirit. She would call me every day about one problem or another. Though she had been born again for a couple of years she seemed to be unable to find her peace. So In September last year became very troubled. I told her she needed to start praying in the spirit (in tongues). She said she couldn't. I told her that she could, she just did not believe she could. I prayed with her and the tongues began to flow out of her. She has been doing it every day and now, she does not call me every day, she has peace and does not easily get agitated, and she is more confident to minister to others. People say they can't ,but the scripture says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

All things means ALL THINGS including speaking in tongues. But most Christians do not believe this .

Stuff and nonsense.

Since we are basing our 'proof' on anecdotal evidence, allow me to share mine:

I was a member of a gang, active in transporting drugs over state lines and arson. A former acquaintance from my pre-gang days introduced me to a Catholic Charismatic Fellowship that spoke in tongues and followed all of the rules of order layed out by Paul to the church in Corinth (something far too uncommon in what passes for 'speaking in tongues' in too many churches.) I was facing a few more years on the street before statistics caught up with me and I died in a deal gone bad or suicide by cop or disappeared into prison for life. I had decided, as a good atheist and nihilist, that I would choose the time and place and I would make a statement on my way out. So it was while preparing a suicide bomb to kill about 4000 - 5000 people that God made me an offer that I could not refuse. I have had an encounter with Christ that completely changed who I am.

Being surrounded by Charismatics, no person ever wanted to speak in tongues more than I did. I even heeded the foolish 'fake it til you make it' approach. I desperately wanted and needed external confirmation and assurance that I was still saved and forgiven. Salvation for me was literally a matter of life and death. It has never been something to be played with like some stupid 'look at me' church game. Like Paul and his thorn, God said NO.

There is a quote by Corrie Ten Boom (look her up if you don't know who she is, her story is worth reading) that goes "God does as he pleases, and He does it right well." What you have overlooked is that the GIFTS are gifts. Nobody is entitled to a gift, the giver (in this case the Holy Spirit) gives gifts to whom he pleases, when he pleases and he gives whichever gifts the GIVER chooses to give. The Holy Spirit gives gifts for the building up of THE BODY! Tongues are not given to puff YOU up, they are given to bless your neighbor, no more than your neighbor, they are given to bless your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. The CHURCH. The Body of Christ. That is what ALL of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given for, because that is the mission of the Holy Spirit. To draw the elect to Christ and to empower those whom God has called to walk in the works that the Father has prepared in advance for them to accomplish.

So the Holy Spirit decided, in the infinite wisdom of a perfect and holy God, that I was not needed to speak in tongues no matter how desperately I wanted it. God had another work in building up the body for me to do, and the work God has prepared in advance for THIS sinner saved by grace required the GIFT of understanding His Holy Word. I am most alive when I can reach into the life of another person and help them draw a truth out of the word of God. Once they draw that truth out for themselves, it is rooted firmly in their heart and no one can ever take that from them. So here is my gift to you:

Philippians 4:10-20 [NKJV]
But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at last your care for me has flourished again; though you surely did care, but you lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Nevertheless you have done well that you shared in my distress. Now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me concerning giving and receiving but you only. For even in Thessalonica you sent aid once and again for my necessities. Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that abounds to your account. Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things sent from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God. And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

The first rule of understanding any sentence, is to read it in context. So what are the "all things" that Paul is talking about on the actual Letter to the Philippians? To be 'abased' and to 'abound'. In plain talk that means Paul knows how to be put down and honored, and in both cases, "to be content". "Full" or "hungry". Rich or poor. Under all these real, physical and emotional circumstances that might discourage or distract Paul from doing the work of God (you know, like using the Gift that the Holy Spirit decided to give to build up the Church - the people of Christ - one another) He and we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"! Then the rest goes on to talk more about money and stuff. About sharing in the work of God and our giving being credited to our account.

That people should take a scripture that is all about the assurance that we can do things for God to bless one another, and twist it into some bizarre claim that people have the authority to demand and order around the Holy Spirit, third person of the Triune Godhead, to do our bidding and give is the gift we choose, because we demand it, in order that we might shine ever more light on ourselves and proclaim just how much more spiritual we are than those who do not speak in tongues ... it breaks my heart.

If you want to pluck verses and throw them against the wall, here are a few:

Matthew 23:11 [NKJV] “But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant."

James 4:3 [NKJV] You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 [NKJV]
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Hebrews 2:4 [NKJV] God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

[FYI: Just in case anyone might question whether I belong under 'Evangelical Only' ... I am a member of a Pentecostal Church.]

 

[Brighten04]

There is a quote by Corrie Ten Boom (look her up if you don't know who she is, her story is worth reading) that goes "God does as he pleases, and He does it right well." What you have overlooked is that the GIFTS are gifts. Nobody is entitled to a gift, the giver (in this case the Holy Spirit) gives gifts to whom he pleases, when he pleases and he gives whichever gifts the GIVER chooses to give. The Holy Spirit gives gifts for the building up of THE BODY! Tongues are not given to puff YOU up, they are given to bless your neighbor, no more than your neighbor, they are given to bless your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. The CHURCH. The Body of Christ. That is what ALL of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given for, because that is the mission of the Holy Spirit. To draw the elect to Christ and to empower those whom God has called to walk in the works that the Father has prepared in advance for them to accomplish.

Study what Paul says about spiritual gifts, including tongues. People use tongues as a point of division and argument. You don't speak in tongues? Fine. IDC .I will not argue with you about it.

 

[Rens]

Study what Paul says about spiritual gifts, including tongues. People use tongues as a point of division and argument. You don't speak in tongues? Fine. IDC .I will not argue with you about it.

Lol I wanted to look up the texts, but was like oh whatever.

 

[Josiah]

[If this thread was not limited to "Evangelicals" - I'll weigh in. Not that I'd probably contribute anything Earth shaking....]

Carry on, lol

 

[Brighten04]

actually, I thought this discussion was over. I almost didn't look at it.

 

[atpollard]

Study what Paul says about spiritual gifts, including tongues. People use tongues as a point of division and argument. You don't speak in tongues? Fine. IDC .I will not argue with you about it.

Good advice.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 [NKJV]
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

It says that the Holy Spirit distributes gifts among INDIVIDUALS as the Spirit wills for the profit of all (all of the saints).


1 Corinthians 12:27-31 [NKJV]
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

The implied answer is no. (Unless you claim to be a miracle-working prophetic apostle right along with the gift of universal tongues.)


1 Corinthians 13:1 [NKJV] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

Here we see the importance of love. To call into question the faith, maturity or (Jesus forbid) salvation of an individual based on a Gift of Tongues that Paul clearly teaches is NOT given to all and is dispensed by the Holy Spirit according to His purpose and will is not an act of love. I am not opposed to the gift of tongues, I am opposed to the gift of tongues being misused as a weapon or instrument of human pride.


1 Corinthians 14:1-5 [NKJV]
1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

I am certain that you would not want me to miss that "he who speaks in a tongue ... in the spirit ... speaks mysteries" or that Paul wishes "you all spoke with tongues", and indeed, I have not. I too wish all spoke in tongues in their spirit and prayed to God in a language between them and God free from the limitations of human words and our confused thoughts. For those of us who do not, please accept that "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans." [Romans 8:26]

What I would have you note is that even more than speaking in Tongues, Paul wishes that God's people would focus less on "edifies himself" and more on "edifies the church".
Paul even repeats it in 1 Corinthians 14:12 [NKJV] "Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel."


1 Corinthians 14:22-25
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

I argue vehemently with cessationists that the gift of tongues continues and this passage is exactly why. Tongues is indeed for unbelievers and the word of God is for believers. The 'mystery' of those crazy Charismatics and their joy and faith is what convinced me to consider the possibility that God might exist. However, it is Jesus Christ that saves and the Holy Spirit working from within that transforms. Tongues are not a yardstick to measure faith or growth. (for the record, neither is teaching theology). They are all just a gift. Given to an individual to edify the body (that means to pick up your brother and sister in Christ).


1 Corinthians 14:26-28 [NKJV]
26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

Why is it that I almost never hear anyone pointing out these verses? Why is verse 28 in particular so frequently ignored? So let's close with two verses that belong together rather than apart:


1 Corinthians 14:39-40 [NKJV]
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

It is important not to forbid speaking in tongues, but that is not the same as demanding that all speak in tongues (which Paul says is not under our control) and all things must be done decently and in order. That means to build up and not tear down and in love rather than pride.

[@Brighten04 may not want to argue, which is agreeable to me, but I wanted you to know that I have studied what Paul says about spiritual gifts, including tongues.]