Death, sin, and biological evolution

MoreCoffee

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The holy scriptures say that human beings die because of the first sin (original sin) which left all the natural descendants of Adam (and Eve) under a curse [SUP]Genesis 3:3,16-19; Romans 5:12-14 NASB[/SUP]. Yet fossils of animals and plants were dying for aeons before man was created and the story in Genesis implies that at least the fruit and perhaps the leaves of plants died before the fall of Adam and Eve into sin [SUP]Genesis 2:15-17 NASB[/SUP] so I am wondering how one reconciles the study of fossils and the story in Genesis - was death always a part of plant and animal creation?
 

Rens

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Yes the animals had to eat plants. It was not heaven. Oh animals, no, either the dating is wrong or it was a recreation.
 

TurtleHare

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Is the study of fossils something we rely on instead of what God has written in the bible?
 

Josiah

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I wonder two things....

1. Is the "death" that results from sin a biological thing (OR are we speaking of spiritual and eternal death)? IF it's biological, then your point, MC, is relevant since biological death seems to have been around for over 4 billion years and is universal to all life. On the other hand, if it's not, then we have another question: why did Jesus need to biologically die?

2. Is the "death" that results from sin a universal thing - or does it only apply to HUMANS? If so, the death of other biological forms would be irrelevant (which raises other questions). Could it be that for non-humans, death is unrelated to sin BUT for homo sapiens, it is a consequence of sin? It's a fine point and probably impossible to defend but it is a logical possibility....

I've always believed the "problem" in theology is not with evolution and the Creation Celebrations in Genesis 1-2. The "problem" is with Adam and Eve and the associated death. MC has raised that.


While I believe what God says in the Bible cannot be wrong, I also believe that God did not choose to tell us everything and that it's wrong for self to insist that self is the divine instrument to say what God did not. As my Greek Orthodox friend constantly reminded me, one of the grave problems in Western Christianity is the inability to shut up, the unwillingness to say what God does - and leave it there, to leave well enough alone. It DOES seem the case that not all the dots line up.... there are 'gaps' in what we've been told.... perhaps we need the HUMILITY to accept that, to accept we may not be as smart as God is (especially when it comes to God). It's okay to ask questions..... it's just not okay to insist that God believes the "answers" self gives to the questions self asks. I'm not suggesting absurd gullibility.... but humility; not suggesting accepting something that clearly is not true..... but accepting truth may be beyond the comprehension of our puny, limited, finite, fallen, sinful brains.



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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Is the study of fossils something we rely on instead of what God has written in the bible?

The same God who made the world and the fossils in it also inspired the holy scriptures so why does your post place them in opposition as if one can believe the one and reject the other?
 

psalms 91

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I just reject any science that goes against the bible, I dont reject science
 

Pedrito

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The early chapters of Genesis contain highly summarised information.

(Those chapters also contain specifically coded information that would make sense only to modern Man, and by means of which God would reveal His unquestionable existence to people in our time – those having eyes willing to see and minds willing to acknowledge.)

Just what did God reveal early in Genesis that is relevant to this thread?

Among other things, He revealed that the Special Couple came into being outside the special Garden, and were then moved into that Garden. That Garden area contained plants the like of which were not to be found outside its confines.

==============================================================================================

But what about outside the Garden? What was it like – that area from which the Special Couple had been moved?

Seeing that the First Man named the animals from within the Garden, their Hebrew names should give us some inkling (at least) of what life was like on the Outside. A review of Hebrew animal names reveals their relationship to observable characteristics (violence, laceration, hopping, hissing, etc.). The Reader, if inclined, can embark upon that revealing exercise personally.

The result however, indicates that outside the Garden, life was much as it is now in the wild. Plants grew and were eaten. Animals and birds preyed on each other. Death was already entrenched. But the Garden was protective, and one of the plants growing there held the power of cheating death, the power of on-going life provided by the suppression of natural physical degradation.

When it comes to the very first couple that could be classified as human (the first Adam and his companion), Pedrito understands that God did something special, as He did with the coming of Jesus (the second Adam) into the world. In both instances, God intervened in a world condition that was already established.

==============================================================================================

So to answer MoreCoffee’s question, “so I am wondering how one reconciles the study of fossils and the story in Genesis - was death always a part of plant and animal creation?”, Pedrito replies, “Yes. It was.”

Pedrito submits that there is no conflict between the genesis record and scientific observation in this particular regard.
 

atpollard

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The holy scriptures say that human beings die because of the first sin (original sin) which left all the natural descendants of Adam (and Eve) under a curse [SUP]Genesis 3:3,16-19; Romans 5:12-14 NASB[/SUP]. Yet fossils of animals and plants were dying for aeons before man was created and the story in Genesis implies that at least the fruit and perhaps the leaves of plants died before the fall of Adam and Eve into sin [SUP]Genesis 2:15-17 NASB[/SUP] so I am wondering how one reconciles the study of fossils and the story in Genesis - was death always a part of plant and animal creation?

Most attempts to understand Genesis and nearly all attempts to reconcile Genesis 1 with Paleontology and the Earth Sciences start from a flawed first step. They fail to recognize the context in which it was written. When we interpret the New Testament, we are careful to ask "how would a first century reader have understood these words?" This is not the end, but it is an essential beginning. We fail this basic test when we read Genesis. (and by 'we' I mean ME.) I recently had the honor of having Genesis 1 explained by an expert on ancient languages (a real one, not one of the self-professing internet experts, but someone from an actual University) and it was enlightening.

Much ado has been made about similarities between Genesis and Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and other Eastern Texts and creation myths. This is often presented as 'proof' that the Bible was just copied from these other sources. They are half correct. The Genesis creation story was written with a knowledge of these other stories, but it was written as a divine refutation of all of the creation myths of all of the nations around the children of Israel.

In other creation accounts, there is some existing material that the god or gods use to create everything from or everything is created from some part of the god. In other creation accounts, there are explanations of where the god or gods come from: some deities created themselves, some deities did not exist and then just suddenly sprang into being, some gods were the result of sexual acts.

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

Boom. End of story. That's all she wrote. Do not miss the power in those simple words.
1. Yahweh exist. No explanation is given for His origin because none is needed.
2. There is no pre-existing primordial stuff from which God and everything is made.
3. All of creation is brought into existence by God.
4. No sex involved in creation.
5. No other gods played any part in creation. Yahweh did it all and did it alone.

Genesis 1:1 fires a shot across the bow of every other known creation myth of every other known people around them. God had given Moses a creation story to declare war on all the false religions of man. In just the first line.
Note, the phrase "heavens and Earth" is a merism, is a figure of speech which uses a pair of contrasting words or phrases to express totality or completeness. So "God created the heavens and the earth.” means that God created EVERYTHING! Genesis 1:1 says the same thing as John 1.

In the creation myths of Egypt and Mesopotamia, the primordial waters create the gods. Apsu and Tiamat are the primordial waters. Apsu is fresh (or sweet) water and Tiamat is salt water. From their union (i.e. mingling) the other gods are created. Apsu is worried that the first generation of deities, which came about from his union with Tiamat, are plaining overthrow him, which they are. Apsu is killed by the other gods and this enrages Tiamat. She bring forth monsters to make war with the gods. The gods were very worried. They needed a champion. Someone who could defeat Tiamat (i.e. the deep, water). Enter Marduk. Marduk agrees to take the job on one condition. When he defeats Tiamat he will be the supreme deity, the head god. So Marduk defeats Tiamat and from her body creates the world.
So the key points:
1. Marduk is just one god among many gods
2. Marduk fashions the world from Tiamat the primordial water, the deep. The Hebrew word for the "deep" is tehom. Both the Akkadian tiamat and the Hebrew tehom are derived from the same root.
3. Marduk cuts, divides, separates Tiamat (i.e. the primordial water, the deep) to create the universe.
4. Marduk must subdue Tiamat (i.e. the primordial water, the deep) before he can create the world and become the supreme god.

Contrast that to the account in Genesis 1:
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so.

Genesis uses the same words to symbolically describe God's sovereign act of creation in a manner which directly contradicts and denies all other mythologies.

So why have I mentioned this and what is the point? The point is not that Genesis cannot or should not be taken as a literal account, but to recognize that the Genesis creation account is more than a myth to satisfy idle curiosity and it is more than a science text book. It is, first and foremost, a theological treatise refuting and casting down all other religions and creation stories that had come before it. It is a trumpet announcing that there is only one God, not one of many, and He and He alone is to be worshiped as creator God. We need to cut it a little slack in the micro-biology and planetary geology departments. Those were not it's primary goal.
 
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