World Trump to Build Wall!

[tango]

Yes but there are a lot of people from Europe who are here illegally, but there is no wall built against them. Yes it is wrong for people to enter the country illegally. But is a wall the answer? People are afraid, true. People want security, true also. But at what cost? People will still disrespect the laws even with walls.

I think the way to reduce immigration is to make it harder for people without documentation to get housing and welfare and the like. If someone is a genuine refugee they can be processed accordingly but otherwise it doesn't seem unreasonable to take a stance that resources are intended for those here legally.

If Jose the cotton picker wants to swim the river and pick cotton in Texas he isn't really the greatest of concerns. He's probably more of a concern to local cotton pickers, if he's willing to work for less because he's sending the money back to Mexico where the cost of living is much cheaper.

On the other hand Carlos the cocaine baron is more of a problem, but Carlos isn't going to be kept away by a wall because he probably has a private jet to get him over the wall and land on the highway in Texas with his wares.

 

[Ruth]

Yup and I heard the cost was more like 40 to 50 billion

Sounds like another waste of money.

 

[Josiah]

I think the way to reduce immigration is to make it harder for people without documentation to get housing and welfare and the like. If someone is a genuine refugee they can be processed accordingly but otherwise it doesn't seem unreasonable to take a stance that resources are intended for those here legally.

If Jose the cotton picker wants to swim the river and pick cotton in Texas he isn't really the greatest of concerns. He's probably more of a concern to local cotton pickers, if he's willing to work for less because he's sending the money back to Mexico where the cost of living is much cheaper.

On the other hand Carlos the cocaine baron is more of a problem, but Carlos isn't going to be kept away by a wall because he probably has a private jet to get him over the wall and land on the highway in Texas with his wares.

Thing is: Some don't want the USA to be a country (just their own or some other) - and thus to have borders. They want all nations to have borders and maintain them EXCEPT for the USA.

I don't think the "debate" has anything to do with whether a better, more extensive, completed wall/fence will work - but whether the USA should do anything about the border. For DECADES, politicians from BOTH parties told the people of Texas, Arizona, California that they realized there's a problem - and all pledged to do something about it - but none of them did. Not Republicans, not Democrats. Too afraid of loosing votes from Mexicans? Maybe. Too afraid that Europeans would blame us for protecting our borders just as they do? Too afraid that Mexico would scream that we must not do as Mexico does? Maybe. Or maybe just too afraid.

DECADES of talk.... and no action. I didn't vote for Trump, but I think ONE reason many did is they were tired of the DECADES of professional politicians TALKING and doing nothing, professional politicians AFRAID to do anything... but telling voters: "I'll fix it!" I frankly doubt simply improving the wall/fence is going to do much - but I don't think this is the ONLY thing Trump is suggesting. And I will give him credit for one thing: He's DOING something. No professional politician in decades has.

It has been suggested for much longer than I've been alive that we at least TRY to get a handle on public services (education, health care, welfare) but the libs won't allow this, it's not even legal for such agencies to merely ASK about their status in this country. And we have "sactuary cities" for them if they did. You CANNOT withhold public services from them - it's disallowed. We MIGHT remove them from our nation but as long as they are here, we CANNOT withhold services. Our schools, ER's, etc. are full of them. You can't even withhold voter registration from them, it's against the law.

I think MOST are here for work. IMO, the best approach is simply to not USUALLY allow people jobs unless they are certified to work. Eliminate the jobs, you eliminate the illegal aliens. But the liberals are most upset about that approach - we CANNOT have the government certifying workers (and of course, we cannot so much as even ASK if they are here legally). My point: Once they are here, it's very hard to do anything about it.


- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

I think the way to reduce immigration is to make it harder for people without documentation to get housing and welfare and the like. If someone is a genuine refugee they can be processed accordingly but otherwise it doesn't seem unreasonable to take a stance that resources are intended for those here legally.

If Jose the cotton picker wants to swim the river and pick cotton in Texas he isn't really the greatest of concerns. He's probably more of a concern to local cotton pickers, if he's willing to work for less because he's sending the money back to Mexico where the cost of living is much cheaper.

On the other hand Carlos the cocaine baron is more of a problem, but Carlos isn't going to be kept away by a wall because he probably has a private jet to get him over the wall and land on the highway in Texas with his wares.

I agree. This makes much more sense than building a costly wall.

 

[tango]

Thing is: Some don't want the USA to be a country (just their own or some other) - and thus to have borders. They want all nations to have borders and maintain them EXCEPT for the USA.

I'm sure there are people who want exactly that, but frankly people who just want to wring their hands and not offer anything constructive don't really have anything worth listening to.

I don't think the "debate" has anything to do with whether a better, more extensive, completed wall/fence will work - but whether the USA should do anything about the border. For DECADES, politicians from BOTH parties told the people of Texas, Arizona, California that they realized there's a problem - and all pledged to do something about it - but none of them did. Not Republicans, not Democrats. Too afraid of loosing votes from Mexicans? Maybe. Too afraid that Europeans would blame us for protecting our borders just as they do? Too afraid that Mexico would scream that we must not do as Mexico does? Maybe. Or maybe just too afraid.

DECADES of talk.... and no action. I didn't vote for Trump, but I think ONE reason many did is they were tired of the DECADES of professional politicians TALKING and doing nothing, professional politicians AFRAID to do anything... but telling voters: "I'll fix it!" I frankly doubt simply improving the wall/fence is going to do much - but I don't think this is the ONLY thing Trump is suggesting. And I will give him credit for one thing: He's DOING something. No professional politician in decades has.

That seems to be par for the course. I've thought for a while that if we start from the assumption that government is about doing anything useful for the people they claim to represent nothing much makes sense. If we start from the assumption that the driving force behind a politician is nothing more than the desire to be re-elected things make a lot more sense.

It has been suggested for much longer than I've been alive that we at least TRY to get a handle on public services (education, health care, welfare) but the libs won't allow this, it's not even legal for such agencies to merely ASK about their status in this country. And we have "sactuary cities" for them if they did. You CANNOT withhold public services from them - it's disallowed. We MIGHT remove them from our nation but as long as they are here, we CANNOT withhold services. Our schools, ER's, etc. are full of them. You can't even withhold voter registration from them, it's against the law.

The refusal to withhold services is the biggest problem. Withholding voter registration can be done - a legal immigrant can be deported for voting in a federal election, so unless the system merely assumes a legal immigrant won't risk deportation and therefore won't vote one assumes there's some means of validating and verifying who is voting. Even if voter registration was as simple as requiring a social security number.

I think MOST are here for work. IMO, the best approach is simply to not USUALLY allow people jobs unless they are certified to work. Eliminate the jobs, you eliminate the illegal aliens. But the liberals are most upset about that approach - we CANNOT have the government certifying workers (and of course, we cannot so much as even ASK if they are here legally). My point: Once they are here, it's very hard to do anything about it.

Honestly, I don't see a problem with what might be called economic migrants. If someone wants to move to another nation to work I'd be inclined to make it easier rather than harder for them to do so. There's also the issue around immigrants doing the work that nationals don't want to do - I imagine you have the same situation here as in the UK where there are jobs available but people don't want to get out of bed and work hard because the welfare state gives them enough that it's not worth their while. Or people "don't want to work with a bunch of immigrants" or simply don't want to do physically hard work because they have an easier life on benefits.

The flip side is that if you can pay an illegal immigrant less than a national would need you can keep your prices lower. If illegal workers were rounded up and deported then all their jobs would need to be filled by legal workers. If that meant significantly increasing the wages for doing the work the inevitable consequences would be that the increase would feed through into prices, which in turn would cause other complaints about those price rises.

 

[Josiah]

I'm sure there are people who want exactly that, but frankly people who just want to wring their hands and not offer anything constructive don't really have anything worth listening to.



That seems to be par for the course. I've thought for a while that if we start from the assumption that government is about doing anything useful for the people they claim to represent nothing much makes sense. If we start from the assumption that the driving force behind a politician is nothing more than the desire to be re-elected things make a lot more sense.



The refusal to withhold services is the biggest problem. Withholding voter registration can be done - a legal immigrant can be deported for voting in a federal election, so unless the system merely assumes a legal immigrant won't risk deportation and therefore won't vote one assumes there's some means of validating and verifying who is voting. Even if voter registration was as simple as requiring a social security number.



Honestly, I don't see a problem with what might be called economic migrants. If someone wants to move to another nation to work I'd be inclined to make it easier rather than harder for them to do so. There's also the issue around immigrants doing the work that nationals don't want to do - I imagine you have the same situation here as in the UK where there are jobs available but people don't want to get out of bed and work hard because the welfare state gives them enough that it's not worth their while. Or people "don't want to work with a bunch of immigrants" or simply don't want to do physically hard work because they have an easier life on benefits.

The flip side is that if you can pay an illegal immigrant less than a national would need you can keep your prices lower. If illegal workers were rounded up and deported then all their jobs would need to be filled by legal workers. If that meant significantly increasing the wages for doing the work the inevitable consequences would be that the increase would feed through into prices, which in turn would cause other complaints about those price rises.

I completely agree.....

As for "economic immigrants" we had that for many, many years (It was called something like "the braso problem" - sorry, don't know the spelling). People could be brought in - LEGALLY and with written permission - for the purpose of working here. It was ruled illegal (I think unconstitutional by the Supreme Court). I understand there were abuses in that system but I still think it COULD be a very worthwhile "solution" - except the Supreme Court would need to overturn itself to even make it a possibility. I agree with the presumption: nearly all are here for jobs - so if we could keep some handle on the jobs, we could begin to have some handle on our borders and soverignty. But the only way i know how is to require some kind of national card permitting work - and that ain't going to happen; it's not even legal to ASK a job applicant his status in this regard much less REQUIRE that they be here legally.



- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

But the only way i know how is to require some kind of national card permitting work - and that ain't going to happen; it's not even legal to ASK a job applicant his status in this regard much less REQUIRE that they be here legally.

I thought work visas were in operation in the U.S. Are you saying they are not?

 

[tango]

I completely agree.....

As for "economic immigrants" we had that for many, many years (It was called something like "the braso problem" - sorry, don't know the spelling). People could be brought in - LEGALLY and with written permission - for the purpose of working here. It was ruled illegal (I think unconstitutional by the Supreme Court). I understand there were abuses in that system but I still think it COULD be a very worthwhile "solution" - except the Supreme Court would need to overturn itself to even make it a possibility. I agree with the presumption: nearly all are here for jobs - so if we could keep some handle on the jobs, we could begin to have some handle on our borders and soverignty. But the only way i know how is to require some kind of national card permitting work - and that ain't going to happen; it's not even legal to ASK a job applicant his status in this regard much less REQUIRE that they be here legally.

- Josiah

Of course part of the problem is that it's pointless to blame the individual who just wants a better life for themselves or for their children. There will always be economic migrants, the trick is to tell the ones who want to contribute to their new host nation from the ones who just want to latch onto a welfare system and take it easy on someone else's dime. But even then, if people come to believe (rightly or wrongly) that some other nation will welcome them with open arms and give them a place to live and free money for the rest of their lives, who can blame them for tagging along to take advantage of it?

To change anything is almost certainly going to require a change in the law, and there the trick is to write a new law such that it makes it harder for the would-be welfare scrounger while not making it impossible for the genuine refugee, that is quick to deport immigrants (regardless of refugee status) for serious crimes but doesn't leave people in fear that the slightest misdemeanor will get them sent home, and so on. I can't help thinking that if someone flees a despotic regime with literally nothing more than the clothes on their back, is taken in by a host nation and given a chance, and then repays the kindness of the host nation by committing violent crimes against its people, they deserve to be sent back to where they came from. For myself I can't help thinking that if I was taken in having abandoned everything in fear of my life I'd be inclined to see how I could contribute to the society that took me in.

ETA, and I realise this is something of a generalisation, but it seems to me that where right-wing policies err they tend to do little more than try and prohibit things or wish the nasty problematic people would go away, while the left wing tends to err towards throwing doors open to all and sundry, refusing to discriminate between the genuine and the fake, and expecting the masses to adapt to cater for tiny minorities.

 

[tango]

The sad fact is if you make the grass look greener on the other side everyone wants to be there. And having a wall won't stop people wanting to get there . It's the old story where there's a will there's a way and make not mistake they will find a way. We have 21 miles of water and a tunnel and they still get in here... and not the legal way either people die trying to get in the uk.

One other issue is that English is the de facto global language so the chances are anyone who speaks a language other than their native language will speak English. So an obvious place to try and get to is a place where you can at least have some chance of being understood. Hence people from one landmass (Europe, Arabia, Africa etc) head towards England, people from another land mass (Latin America) head towards the US. People who land on northern parts of Australia get eaten by spiders and snakes and crocodiles...

 

[Josiah]

Of course part of the problem is that it's pointless to blame the individual who just wants a better life for themselves or for their children. There will always be economic migrants, the trick is to tell the ones who want to contribute to their new host nation from the ones who just want to latch onto a welfare system and take it easy on someone else's dime.

I agree. And that demands that we (at long last) take control of our borders. And IMO, it is likely that those who want to participate in the American dream and who want to abide by our laws will... well.... abide by our laws. There ARE people - in great numbers, from all over the world - who WANT to work, improve their lives and abide by the laws of our land - and thus immigrate legally. They don't tend to be the problem.... we don't need walls/fences for them.

if people come to believe (rightly or wrongly) that some other nation will welcome them with open arms and give them a place to live and free money for the rest of their lives, who can blame them for tagging along to take advantage of it?

It's easy to laugh at our nation and our borders...... once in, we can't even ask them their status and we can't refuse them health care or welfare or education. I agree with you, IF (big word there) IF we could get the courts to reverse decisions, if we could get the US government and the states to change laws and policies, we could change some of that (although at a HUGE political cost - the press and the libs and the Hollywood growd will SCREAM how we've turned into Nazis) - the draw could be lessened. And I'd encourage that, even though I do not think the majority of Republicans or Democrats have the guts to do that, nor to I believe the Courts will do that. I think Trump is fundamentally right here - the first move, the only thing that can be done right away and by his control, is to try to better close the border.... if they don't get in, we don't have the problem. Meanwhile - those who want to abide by our laws, who want to participate in the American dream - they will continue to do as they ALWAYS have - play by the rules. We admit MANY this way every year.

there the trick is to write a new law such that it makes it harder for the would-be welfare scrounger while not making it impossible for the genuine refugee, that is quick to deport immigrants (regardless of refugee status) for serious crimes but doesn't leave people in fear that the slightest misdemeanor will get them sent home, and so on. I can't help thinking that if someone flees a despotic regime with literally nothing more than the clothes on their back, is taken in by a host nation and given a chance, and then repays the kindness of the host nation by committing violent crimes against its people, they deserve to be sent back to where they came from. For myself I can't help thinking that if I was taken in having abandoned everything in fear of my life I'd be inclined to see how I could contribute to the society that took me in.

I could not agree more. But the professional politians have been saying that for over a century. And NONE of them has EVER done a THING about it. Instead, laws and court decisions have been made to make that almost impossible. Now, for exemple, anyone who simply chants the word "refugee" MUST be allowed in.... and we have NO WAY to know if they actually are fleeing from anything, we don't have the resources and typically couldn't confirm the reality of their claim if we did. They just come in. But at least those chanted a required word, at least playing by SOME rule... they are a small minority. Most just go through, under or over the wall.... or just walk where there is none. Once here.... they get health care, welfare, education, register to vote, have kids..... and obviously, for humane and legal and court reasons - we can't do a thing about it, it's not even legal to ASK what their status is (and nothing that suggests they remotely should tell the truth if someone violates the law and asks). All that COULD be corrected - but if the last 100 years is any indication, no one has the guts to do ANYTHING about it except make it worse. Trump seems to have the guts to do something - the only thing that can quickly be done - and yeah, he will pay politically for it, the libs will BLAST him while offering NOTHING as an alternative. I don't like Trump ... I didn't vote for him.... but I DO give him credit for not just talking the talk while doing everything possible to not only prevent any action but make it harder.

ETA, and I realise this is something of a generalisation, but it seems to me that where right-wing policies err they tend to do little more than try and prohibit things or wish the nasty problematic people would go away, while the left wing tends to err towards throwing doors open to all and sundry, refusing to discriminate between the genuine and the fake, and expecting the masses to adapt to cater for tiny minorities.

Maybe.... all I know if NEITHER party as done anything - except nod their heads that there is a problem and do all they can to make it worse. Both are too afraid of the press, the liberals, the Hollywood celebs, and an ever growing political block - Hispanics. While I think the wall won't help much, I also think getting to the real issues requires a lot of time, a lot of reversal of laws and court decisions and a LOT of political guts - and I doubt that will come anytime soon. Meanwhile, we have only one possible action we can take: See if we can lessen those who don't want to abide by our laws from entering in the first place: once here, there's little to nothing we can do.



- Josiah



.

 

[tango]

I agree. And that demands that we (at long last) take control of our borders. And IMO, it is likely that those who want to participate in the American dream and who want to abide by our laws will... well.... abide by our laws. There ARE people - in great numbers, from all over the world - who WANT to work, improve their lives and abide by the laws of our land - and thus immigrate legally. They don't tend to be the problem.... we don't need walls/fences for them.

Sure, because those who migrate legally are registered and can be deported.

It's easy to laugh at our nation and our borders...... once in, we can't even ask them their status and we can't refuse them health care or welfare or education. I agree with you, IF (big word there) IF we could get the courts to reverse decisions, if we could get the US government and the states to change laws and policies, we could change some of that (although at a HUGE political cost - the press and the libs and the Hollywood growd will SCREAM how we've turned into Nazis) - the draw could be lessened. And I'd encourage that, even though I do not think the majority of Republicans or Democrats have the guts to do that, nor to I believe the Courts will do that. I think Trump is fundamentally right here - the first move, the only thing that can be done right away and by his control, is to try to better close the border.... if they don't get in, we don't have the problem. Meanwhile - those who want to abide by our laws, who want to participate in the American dream - they will continue to do as they ALWAYS have - play by the rules. We admit MANY this way every year.

It would probably be much cheaper to slash welfare to illegal immigrants. People who come here to work for cash under the table are probably less of an issue than people who come here to play the welfare system.

I could not agree more. But the professional politians have been saying that for over a century. And NONE of them has EVER done a THING about it. Instead, laws and court decisions have been made to make that almost impossible. Now, for exemple, anyone who simply chants the word "refugee" MUST be allowed in.... and we have NO WAY to know if they actually are fleeing from anything, we don't have the resources and typically couldn't confirm the reality of their claim if we did. They just come in. But at least those chanted a required word, at least playing by SOME rule... they are a small minority. Most just go through, under or over the wall.... or just walk where there is none. Once here.... they get health care, welfare, education, register to vote, have kids..... and obviously, for humane and legal and court reasons - we can't do a thing about it, it's not even legal to ASK what their status is (and nothing that suggests they remotely should tell the truth if someone violates the law and asks). All that COULD be corrected - but if the last 100 years is any indication, no one has the guts to do ANYTHING about it except make it worse. Trump seems to have the guts to do something - the only thing that can quickly be done - and yeah, he will pay politically for it, the libs will BLAST him while offering NOTHING as an alternative. I don't like Trump ... I didn't vote for him.... but I DO give him credit for not just talking the talk while doing everything possible to not only prevent any action but make it harder.

I remember years ago I worked with a guy who was originally from Sri Lanka. His parents had sent him to a better life when he was a child, to get him away from the civil war. I think his father was killed in the civil war. Anyway, he came to the UK as a refugee child and subsequently went on to become a very productive member of society. And then came the time he got married, and his mother had the crazy idea she might like to be at her son's wedding. Sadly she was denied a visa, because the government department in charge of that sort of thing figured there was a significant chance she would overstay her visa. The stupid thing was that given the situation in Sri Lanka at the time she could have arrived anyway, claimed persecution, and most likely been allowed to stay permanently.

Maybe.... all I know if NEITHER party as done anything - except nod their heads that there is a problem and do all they can to make it worse. Both are too afraid of the press, the liberals, the Hollywood celebs, and an ever growing political block - Hispanics. While I think the wall won't help much, I also think getting to the real issues requires a lot of time, a lot of reversal of laws and court decisions and a LOT of political guts - and I doubt that will come anytime soon. Meanwhile, we have only one possible action we can take: See if we can lessen those who don't want to abide by our laws from entering in the first place: once here, there's little to nothing we can do.

The Hispanics are a growing political block but it seems to be that lawful immigrants are, if anything, more hostile to illegal immigration than anyone else. It's easy to see why, when you look at the costs of going through the machinations to do everything above board it's not surprising people resent those who just tunnel under a wall and make their way to the nearest welfare office. So on that count I wouldn't be afraid of the Hispanic vote, especially if the first step is to make sure only lawful immigrants can vote.

I think the flip side of all this is that those who take a laissez-faire approach to economics and business are quite happy with lots of cheap labor, most likely because it keeps their cost base down which means either lower prices or more profits. Then there are those who see the chance to expand their reach by offering endless programs to benefit immigrants. It seems those on the right flank want to take advantage of the chance to push wages down while those on the left want to consolidate a power base by trying to attract more votes.

 

[Sword7]

The ocean is big enough I think. Mexicans can take a plane too.
I thought he was just yelling something, but he's really gonna build it.

It appears he is a proud man.he wants to be seen to be (at least)attempting to follow through on election promises. Its a mammoth task with mammoth cost. And will make minimal difference to how many cross that border (though statistically the harder you make it the more that die in the attempt) one wonders how extreme the situation is that would so motivate people to risk their very lives to cross.
Oddly (and I would like it verified)I have heard tell that there are more illegal immigrants that entered legally(on a visa) and then did not leave,(nation-wide)then there are illegals from Mexico.
still,we as the children of God should act as children of our father house. Not as those of this world

 

[Krissy Cakes]

I can't wait till he builds the wall.

 

[MoreCoffee]

He could be impeached

 

[Krissy Cakes]

He could be impeached

For what?

 

[tango]

He could be impeached

They have a lot of peaches in Georgia. Maybe if he visited he could be.

 

[Ruth]

They have a lot of peaches in Georgia. Maybe if he visited he could be.

:clap2:

 

[Josiah]

The newspaper today reports that it is estimated there are 11.1 MILLION illegal aliens living in the USA.... about 1 million in Los Angeles alone.

Whatever has been done of late OBVIOUSLY hasn't worked. That Trump admits that..... and seems the first in decades who seems willing to actually DO things about it.... is probably good; I'll give him credit for that. We may debate exactly WHAT should be done, whether for example building the wall should be a part of our efforts in law enforcement - but it must be acknowledged that what has been done in the past 50 years or so has been little more than dusting off the welcome map.



- Josiah



.

 

[Rens]

The newspaper today reports that it is estimated there are 11.1 MILLION illegal aliens living in the USA.... about 1 million in Los Angeles alone.

Whatever has been done of late OBVIOUSLY hasn't worked. That Trump admits that..... and seems the first in decades who seems willing to actually DO things about it.... is probably good; I'll give him credit for that. We may debate exactly WHAT should be done, whether for example building the wall should be a part of our efforts in law enforcement - but it must be acknowledged that what has been done in the past 50 years or so has been little more than dusting off the welcome map.



- Josiah



.

Wow. They never kicked them out? They have been doing that for years here. If you marry someone from Brazil she may not even live here. Then they dare say something about Trump.

 

[MoreCoffee]

11.1 million folk living in the USA without a valid current visa? What is Donald Trump going to do about it Josiah? Kick them all out? Where to? What if they have no papers to prove that they came from the country to which Donald Trump wants to send them. If they have no proof that they came from Honduras, Guatamala, Mexico, Argentina, Guiana, Zimbabwe, Haiti those countries will not receive them. What is he going to do then?