Jesus is 100% God and 100% man at the same time

[MoreCoffee]

The false gospels called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have deceived every single reader that's ever read them. They can't save anyone and all they do is cause a lot of confusion and hatefulness towards the true Gospel of God where everything comes from both VISIBLE and INVISIBLE. The Word of God is NOT A BOOK called the BIBLE.

I am a Catholic and do not think of the holy scriptures as the source of salvation. Rather, I think of the holy scriptures as pastoral advice coupled with revelation from God. The book is a book, paper and ink in a binding with no special power in and of itself.

 

[Sword7]

I started this thread to not derail The Holy Trinity thread.

Jesus is 100% God and 100% man at the same time. That seems like a mathematical impossibility but with God anything is possible. Let's discuss.

this has always been an interesting statement .
But is its origin in the scriptures or in traditions of men ?

the other questions it raises is What is the understanding of the statement what do different people mean when they make it . 3 people can make this statement and still mean three different things .
Because the statement is not "scripture " it cannot be inerrant ,while at the same time it can have a truth in it so not fully error either . so we cannot trust the statement alone .

what are we to do ?
enter the word of God .
i understand it was asked early in the thread if scriptural basis for this statement could be presented . there are a lot of posts i don't clearly see one that fully establishes that it is a fully correct statement . There are so many variations and questionable holes .

Colossians 2: See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
this verse is a standard one used .. but it says dwells in hi presently .When we view it honestly we in honesty must admit it does not say it ALWAYS was the case but that it is the case now . for if it was already the case where did the extra come from .if the fullness was already in his flesh body then how can one receive what one already has when the Spirit descended upon him ?

Then the question is raised, why did he do no works (actions of a miraculous nature) before he received the holy Spirit ? (please do not attempt to present myth of non biblical nature) and it is a valid question .
though partly answered in this next quote.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
here is presented a very defined distinction between father and son .

you will note please : i have not said it either way ,i have not taken a side .i have asked the questions.
if he was always God .then at what time was he a "man " only and thus subject to ALL the temptations of man in order to overcome them as a man ?
God cannot be tempted of evil neither tempts any man . God need not ever overcome for he can never be overwhelmed .

was he god on the cross when he cried "my god my god why hast thou forsaken me ?

to many questions to few answers .

the word "became " flesh ,the word did not become god . the word WAS God but it became flesh . there is no scripture i have found yet to state otherwise .
the word was sent from the father and "returned to the father from whence he came" and is there ,now , glorified . but before he returned he was not glorified . when is God without glory ?
it is the dilemma when we introduce and then try to defend man made statements that are not in the word of god

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sword7 this may be of interest to you.

THE BLESSED TRINITY, THE INCARNATION, ETC.


The Catholic Church teaches that there is but one God, who is infinite in
knowledge, in power, in goodness, and in every other perfection; who
created all things by His omnipotence, and governs them by His Providence.

In this one God there are three distinct Persons,--the Father, the Son, and
the Holy Ghost, who are perfectly equal to each other.

We believe that Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, is
perfect God and perfect Man. He is God, for He "is over all things, God
blessed forever."(Romans 9:5) "He is God of the substance of the Father, begotten
before time; and He is Man of the substance of His Mother, born in
time."(Athanasian Creed) Out of love for us, and in order to rescue us from the miseries
entailed upon us by the disobedience of our first parents, the Divine Word
descended from heaven, and became Man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, by
the operation of the Holy Ghost. He was born on Christmas day, in a stable
at Bethlehem.

After having led a life of obscurity for about thirty years, chiefly at
Nazareth, He commenced His public career. He associated with Him a number
of men who are named Apostles, whom He instructed in the doctrines of the
religion which He established.

For three years He went about doing good, giving sight to the blind,
hearing to the deaf, healing all kinds of diseases, raising the dead to
life, and preaching throughout Judea the new Gospel of peace.(Matt 11)

On Good Friday He was crucified on Mount Calvary, and thus purchased for
us redemption by His death. Hence Jesus exclusively bears the titles of
Saviour and Redeemer, because "there is no other name under heaven
given to men whereby we must be saved."(Acts 4:12) "He was wounded for our
iniquities; He was bruised for our sins, ... and by His bruises we are
healed."(Isaiah 53:5)

We are commanded by Jesus, suffering and dying for us, to imitate Him by
the crucifixion of our flesh, and by acts of daily mortification. "If
anyone," He says, "will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up
his cross daily and follow Me."(Luke 9:23)

Hence we abstain from the use of flesh meat on Friday--the day consecrated
to our Saviour’s sufferings--not because the eating of flesh meat is sinful
in itself, but as an act of salutary mortification. Loving children would
be prompted by filial tenderness to commemorate the anniversary of their
father's death rather by prayer and fasting than by feasting. Even so we
abstain on Fridays from flesh meat that we may in a small measure testify
our practical sympathy for our dear Lord by the mortification of our body,
endeavouring, like St. Paul, "to bear about in our body the mortification
of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our
bodies."(2Cor 4:10)

The Cross is held in the highest reverence by Catholics, because it was
the instrument of our Saviour’s crucifixion. It surmounts our churches and
adorns our sanctuaries. We venerate it as the emblem of our salvation.
"Far be it from me," says the Apostle, "to glory save in the cross of our
Lord Jesus Christ."(Gal 6:14) We do not, of course, attach any intrinsic virtue
to the Cross; this would be sinful and idolatrous. Our veneration is
referred to Him who died upon it.

It is also a very ancient and pious practice for the faithful to make on
their person the sign of the Cross, saying at the same time: "In the name
of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Tertullian, who
lived in the second century of the Christian era, says: "In all our
actions, when we come in or go out, when we dress, when we wash, at our
meals, before retiring to sleep, ... we form on our foreheads the sign of
the cross. These practices are not commanded by a formal law of Scripture;
but tradition teaches them, custom confirms them, faith observes
them."(De Corona, C. iii) By the sign of the cross we make a profession of our faith in
the Trinity and the Incarnation, and perform a most salutary act of
religion.

We believe that on Easter Sunday Jesus Christ manifested His divine power
by raising Himself to life, and that having spent forty days on earth,
after His resurrection, instructing His disciples, He ascended to heaven
from the Mount of Olives.

On the Feast of Pentecost, or Whitsunday, ten days after His Ascension,
our Saviour sent, as He had promised, His Holy Spirit to His disciples,
while they were assembled together in prayer. The Holy Ghost purified
their hearts from sin, and imparted to them a full knowledge of those
doctrines of salvation which they were instructed to preach. On the same
Feast of Pentecost the Apostles commenced their sublime mission, from
which day, accordingly, we date the active life of the Catholic Church.

Our Redeemer gave the most ample authority to the Apostles to teach in His
name; commanding them to "preach the Gospel to every creature,"(Mark 16:15) and
directing all, under the most severe penalties, to hear and obey them: "He
that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me. And
He that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me."(Luke 10:16)

And lest we should be mistaken in distinguishing between the true Church
and false sects, which our Lord predicted would arise, He was pleased to
stamp upon His Church certain shining marks, by which every sincere
inquirer could easily recognise her as His only Spouse. The principal
marks or characteristics of the true Church are, her Unity, Sanctity,
Catholicity, and Apostolicity,(Symb. Constantinop.) to which may be added the Infallibility
of her teaching and the Perpetuity of her existence.​

(source)

 

[Sword7]

Sword7 this may be of interest to you.

THE BLESSED TRINITY, THE INCARNATION, ETC.


The Catholic Church teaches that there is but one God, who is infinite in
knowledge, in power, in goodness, and in every other perfection; who
created all things by His omnipotence, and governs them by His Providence.

In this one God there are three distinct Persons,--the Father, the Son, and
the Holy Ghost, who are perfectly equal to each other.

We believe that Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, is
perfect God and perfect Man. He is God, for He "is over all things, God
blessed forever."(Romans 9:5) "He is God of the substance of the Father, begotten
before time; and He is Man of the substance of His Mother, born in
time."(Athanasian Creed) Out of love for us, and in order to rescue us from the miseries
entailed upon us by the disobedience of our first parents, the Divine Word
descended from heaven, and became Man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, by
the operation of the Holy Ghost. He was born on Christmas day, in a stable
at Bethlehem.

After having led a life of obscurity for about thirty years, chiefly at
Nazareth, He commenced His public career. He associated with Him a number
of men who are named Apostles, whom He instructed in the doctrines of the
religion which He established.

For three years He went about doing good, giving sight to the blind,
hearing to the deaf, healing all kinds of diseases, raising the dead to
life, and preaching throughout Judea the new Gospel of peace.(Matt 11)

On Good Friday He was crucified on Mount Calvary, and thus purchased for
us redemption by His death. Hence Jesus exclusively bears the titles of
Saviour and Redeemer, because "there is no other name under heaven
given to men whereby we must be saved."(Acts 4:12) "He was wounded for our
iniquities; He was bruised for our sins, ... and by His bruises we are
healed."(Isaiah 53:5)

We are commanded by Jesus, suffering and dying for us, to imitate Him by
the crucifixion of our flesh, and by acts of daily mortification. "If
anyone," He says, "will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up
his cross daily and follow Me."(Luke 9:23)

Hence we abstain from the use of flesh meat on Friday--the day consecrated
to our Saviour’s sufferings--not because the eating of flesh meat is sinful
in itself, but as an act of salutary mortification. Loving children would
be prompted by filial tenderness to commemorate the anniversary of their
father's death rather by prayer and fasting than by feasting. Even so we
abstain on Fridays from flesh meat that we may in a small measure testify
our practical sympathy for our dear Lord by the mortification of our body,
endeavouring, like St. Paul, "to bear about in our body the mortification
of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our
bodies."(2Cor 4:10)

The Cross is held in the highest reverence by Catholics, because it was
the instrument of our Saviour’s crucifixion. It surmounts our churches and
adorns our sanctuaries. We venerate it as the emblem of our salvation.
"Far be it from me," says the Apostle, "to glory save in the cross of our
Lord Jesus Christ."(Gal 6:14) We do not, of course, attach any intrinsic virtue
to the Cross; this would be sinful and idolatrous. Our veneration is
referred to Him who died upon it.

It is also a very ancient and pious practice for the faithful to make on
their person the sign of the Cross, saying at the same time: "In the name
of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Tertullian, who
lived in the second century of the Christian era, says: "In all our
actions, when we come in or go out, when we dress, when we wash, at our
meals, before retiring to sleep, ... we form on our foreheads the sign of
the cross. These practices are not commanded by a formal law of Scripture;
but tradition teaches them, custom confirms them, faith observes
them."(De Corona, C. iii) By the sign of the cross we make a profession of our faith in
the Trinity and the Incarnation, and perform a most salutary act of
religion.

We believe that on Easter Sunday Jesus Christ manifested His divine power
by raising Himself to life, and that having spent forty days on earth,
after His resurrection, instructing His disciples, He ascended to heaven
from the Mount of Olives.

On the Feast of Pentecost, or Whitsunday, ten days after His Ascension,
our Saviour sent, as He had promised, His Holy Spirit to His disciples,
while they were assembled together in prayer. The Holy Ghost purified
their hearts from sin, and imparted to them a full knowledge of those
doctrines of salvation which they were instructed to preach. On the same
Feast of Pentecost the Apostles commenced their sublime mission, from
which day, accordingly, we date the active life of the Catholic Church.

Our Redeemer gave the most ample authority to the Apostles to teach in His
name; commanding them to "preach the Gospel to every creature,"(Mark 16:15) and
directing all, under the most severe penalties, to hear and obey them: "He
that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me. And
He that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me."(Luke 10:16)

And lest we should be mistaken in distinguishing between the true Church
and false sects, which our Lord predicted would arise, He was pleased to
stamp upon His Church certain shining marks, by which every sincere
inquirer could easily recognise her as His only Spouse. The principal
marks or characteristics of the true Church are, her Unity, Sanctity,
Catholicity, and Apostolicity,(Symb. Constantinop.) to which may be added the Infallibility
of her teaching and the Perpetuity of her existence.​

(source)

What you choose to believe and what IS , are not always the same thing .you state the holy Spirit taught things to the disciples but none of those disciples went on to preach many of the beliefs your church presents . so they did not originate from the holy Spirit but much later on from man . for this reason i do not adhere to their (being your denomination's ) teachings .I have little interest in traditions of men when they are presented as if they hold sway over the word of God .

 

[MoreCoffee]

What you choose to believe and what IS , are not always the same thing .you state the holy Spirit taught things to the disciples but none of those disciples went on to preach many of the beliefs your church presents .

Is your post implying that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not the truth?

so they did not originate from the holy Spirit but much later on from man . for this reason i do not adhere to their teachings .I have little interest in traditions of men when they are presented as if they hold sway over the word of God .

 

[Sword7]

Is your post implying that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not the truth?

i said what i said .not what you wish to make it appear

 

[MoreCoffee]

i said what i said .not what you wish to make it appear

Okay, I am relieved that you do not deny the Blessed Trinity, that is what you mean by your post, right?

 

[Lamb]

What you choose to believe and what IS , are not always the same thing .you state the holy Spirit taught things to the disciples but none of those disciples went on to preach many of the beliefs your church presents . so they did not originate from the holy Spirit but much later on from man . for this reason i do not adhere to their (being your denomination's ) teachings .I have little interest in traditions of men when they are presented as if they hold sway over the word of God .

None of the disciples went on to preach many of the beliefs the Catholic church presents? I'm curious about this since I do know that there are a lot of beliefs of the Catholic Church that Jesus taught and it's written in the bible.

 

[Sword7]

It's a misdirection. In my post above it I presented a range of questions which were not adressed .
Then in the rather long recitation( from the Roman Catholics teaching ) in which it states they believe he rose himself from the dead. Scripture does not say so but rather it words it that the father did and the holy spirit also .(the same holy spirit that rose Christ from the dead.)
So if a discussion is to be had, the questions need to be approached with open minded honesty .not a predetermined mindset.
If we approach it any other way we just have an argument and discussion is over.
(So presenting a long winded preset denominational script is a bad start .)

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's a misdirection. In my post above it I presented a range of questions which were not adressed .
Then in the rather long recitation( from the Roman Catholics teaching ) in which it states they believe he rose himself from the dead. Scripture does not say so

Scripture does say that Christ raised himself from the dead. Jesus himself said it.

The Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own free will, and as I have power to lay it down, so I have power to take it up again; and this is the command I have received from my Father. (Joh 10:17-18)
​

And in another place Jesus says

Jesus answered, 'Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' The Jews replied, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this Temple: are you going to raise it up again in three days?' But he was speaking of the Temple that was his body, and when Jesus rose from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and what he had said. (Joh 2:19-22)​

but rather it words it that the father did and the holy spirit also .(the same holy spirit that rose Christ from the dead.)
So if a discussion is to be had, the questions need to be approached with open minded honesty .not a predetermined mindset.
If we approach it any other way we just have an argument and discussion is over.
(So presenting a long winded preset denominational script is a bad start .)

The Father and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead and so did Jesus. These three are one. What one does all do. One redeems and all redeem. One saves and all save. These truths are the heart of Christian faith.

 

[Sword7]

Yes that's what it says .
It adresses part of your recital . not the questions Asked for the purpose of discussion .

 

[MoreCoffee]

We are agreed then that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, right?

 

[psalms 91]

answer the questions andmaybe he will tell you

 

[Sword7]

We are agreed then that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, right?

We agree only that it is what man has coined as a phrase.
We agree he was 100 percent man and is now returned to the father .
But was he at all times in his flesh 100%God ... ? Refer back to the questions posed and we can discuss it.any one else wish to discuss it without feeling the need to shove a preset denominational conclusion in the way?

 

[MoreCoffee]

We agree only that it is what man has coined as a phrase.
We agree he was 100 percent man and is now returned to the father .
But was he at all times in his flesh 100%God ... ? Refer back to the questions posed and we can discuss it.any one else wish to discuss it without feeling the need to shove a preset denominational conclusion in the way?

In that case we are not agreed because it is not any man who says that Jesus is God but one man who is in heaven and who came from heaven said it [SUP]Romans 9:5[/SUP] and the faithful know his voice [SUP]John 10:4[/SUP] and know he speaks true [SUP]John 18:37[/SUP]. But some who pretend to be scrupulous to obey the holy scriptures twist them and wrest their meaning with their own private interpretations [SUP]2Peter 1:20-21[/SUP] and seek thereby to corrupt the saints of God [SUP]Matthew 24:24[/SUP]. They - like the devil of old - say "has God said?" [SUP]Gen 3:1[/SUP] and then when they are informed accurately of what God said they reply "Surely that is not so" [SUP]Gen 3:4-5[/SUP] thus do they seek to ensnare the faithful with cunningly conceived fables and lies [SUP]2Peter 1:16[/SUP] all the while smoothly and soothingly assuring their duped followers that they speak only what God speaks. The holy scriptures warn the faithful that the devil comes dressed in beautiful garb as if he were a servant of the light [SUP]2Cor 11:14[/SUP] and so seeks to deceive - if it were possible - the elect of God [SUP]Matthew 24:24[/SUP].

 

[Lamb]

We agree only that it is what man has coined as a phrase.
We agree he was 100 percent man and is now returned to the father .
But was he at all times in his flesh 100%God ... ? Refer back to the questions posed and we can discuss it.any one else wish to discuss it without feeling the need to shove a preset denominational conclusion in the way?

If you deny that Jesus was at some point NOT God then you do not agree with the truth of the trinity and should not be posting in the Christian Theology or Christian Debate forums here on the site. Our statement of faith is the Nicene creed.

 

[Sword7]

If you deny that Jesus was at some point NOT God then you do not agree with the truth of the trinity and should not be posting in the Christian Theology or Christian Debate forums here on the site. Our statement of faith is the Nicene creed.

i'm here discussing a topic not denying anything .why does it feel there is a concerted effort to silence questioning ? i certainly haven't denied such a thing. i began by pointing out that it is written in him dwells the fullness of the god head bodily . so of course i do not deny it .
what i have asked - was that always the case for all his time upon the earth since he is the word and the word BECAME FLESH . He did not become God . but God's word became flesh .And that the fulness of the Godhead dwelt IN him bodily . not was the flesh, but inhabited the flesh . that is directly what the scripture states .
so these fair questions are open to discussion .
can GOD be tempted by the devil to do evil ? absolutely NO.
so who did the devil tempt ? the MAN christ Jesus
we see that adam was tempted , people forget that at the time he was tempted he was 'without sin" the MAN adam was fully without sin and fully in communion with the father .
and just so the word of god became a MAN just like Adam
a sinless man . for this is the only states in which he could be the substitute for our sin . and in this state he had to be fully man and perhaps was nothing more then man .after all God formed adam from the dust and he was fully man . God formed his word in the womb of a virgin and he was fully man . its just interesting to think about . i have no desire to say he was not God manifest to us in the flesh .. any more then the burning bush was not god manifest to moses in the burning bush . the manifestation of spirit and the spirit that is making itself manifest need not be one and the same .is God a burning bush ? no is he an all consuming fire (holiness) ? yes

sometimes we sit around at home and discuss such things and we are awed by the greatness and complexities of the wonders of the most high god and it results in much praise and thanksgiving .
such discussions lead to glorifying him if we let them .its not about trying to say dogmatically it is this OR it is that . As if we can comprehend the Most high !

 

[Josiah]

TWO Natures of Christ.... As affirmed by the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1 ff [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
[9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - I had."


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: CHRIST is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us"


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




There is LOTS here that is "mystery." LOTS here that our finite, fallen, sinful, human brains cannot understand. LOTS here we cannot wrap our puny brains around. It's okay to ask questions ... the problem IMO is when self appoints self to authoritatively, dogmatically "answer" the questions of self - then insist that God in heaven above and all on Earth below must agree with self, when self insists that the "answer" self comes up with is the one the Holy Spirit is mandated to submit to and thus what the Holy Spirit certainly MEANS and what the Holy Spirit should have inspired to be written in Scripture if the Holy Spirit were just as smart as self things self is. IMO, part of the problem in modern, western Christianity (Catholic and too much of Protestant) is our abandonment of mystery, the loss of humility, the unwillingness to shut up. John Wesley: "We must be bold where Scripture is bold and silent where Scripture is silent." Or in the words of my Greek Orthodox friend: All sound doctrine requires we know how to shut up (authoritatively, dogmaticly anyway).

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My half cent.


Pax Christi


- Josiah



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[Lamb]

i'm here discussing a topic not denying anything .why does it feel there is a concerted effort to silence questioning ? i certainly haven't denied such a thing. i began by pointing out that it is written in him dwells the fullness of the god head bodily . so of course i do not deny it .
what i have asked - was that always the case for all his time upon the earth since he is the word and the word BECAME FLESH . He did not become God . but God's word became flesh .And that the fulness of the Godhead dwelt IN him bodily . not was the flesh, but inhabited the flesh . that is directly what the scripture states .
so these fair questions are open to discussion .
can GOD be tempted by the devil to do evil ? absolutely NO.
so who did the devil tempt ? the MAN christ Jesus
we see that adam was tempted , people forget that at the time he was tempted he was 'without sin" the MAN adam was fully without sin and fully in communion with the father .
and just so the word of god became a MAN just like Adam
a sinless man . for this is the only states in which he could be the substitute for our sin . and in this state he had to be fully man and perhaps was nothing more then man .after all God formed adam from the dust and he was fully man . God formed his word in the womb of a virgin and he was fully man . its just interesting to think about . i have no desire to say he was not God manifest to us in the flesh .. any more then the burning bush was not god manifest to moses in the burning bush . the manifestation of spirit and the spirit that is making itself manifest need not be one and the same .is God a burning bush ? no is he an all consuming fire (holiness) ? yes

sometimes we sit around at home and discuss such things and we are awed by the greatness and complexities of the wonders of the most high god and it results in much praise and thanksgiving .
such discussions lead to glorifying him if we let them .its not about trying to say dogmatically it is this OR it is that . As if we can comprehend the Most high !

Questions are fine except when someone is purposely trying to turn someone away from the trinity. I don't know who you are and you are new here so I don't know your beliefs. As Administrator it's my job to let you know our site rules to avoid problems.

 

[Sword7]

Questions are fine except when someone is purposely trying to turn someone away from the trinity. I don't know who you are and you are new here so I don't know your beliefs. As Administrator it's my job to let you know our site rules to avoid problems.

what the bible states i believe. this does not mean i have to automatically adhere to every man made "phrase" coined by men . nor do i have to adhere to some denominational script as if it an authority higher than the scriptures .When people use a set of statements written out by some denomination as authority to force that comprehension on others they act in a form of idolatry .placing the word of the man in authority over the word of god .
it is almost sad that they have closed their minds to learning by having their minds locked onto a denominational stance . we are not to walk according to the carnal understanding nor according to denominational stance . but by the holy Spirit who is the inspiring Author of the written word and none comprehend it but he and only he can bring understanding of it to the regenerated heart . and the greatest measure of how much that understanding has come into a person's life is measured only by their fruit .

Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only ,deceiving your own selves .