The singular, unique, one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

MoreCoffee

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Oh it's on the video but not Cali, but in Hemet. I mixed it up.


And what of the Valley’s infamous church infighting? “Now we are a wall of living stones,” Beekett declares proudly. “Instead of competing, we are swapping pulpits. You have Baptists in Pentecostal pulpits and vice versa. You have Lutherans with Episcopalians. The Christian community has become a fabric instead of loose yarn.”

Houston adds that valley churches are also brought together by quarterly concerts of prayer and citywide prayer revivals where speaking assignments are rotated among area pastors.

Hmm no mention of Catholics though.



https://www.google.nl/amp/s/renewal...t-century-revivals-transforming-revivals/amp/

Many Protestant pastors dislike Catholicism so it is no surprise that evangelical pastors' associations do not give much consideration to the Catholic Church pastors and elders in their area.
 

psalms 91

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Many Protestant pastors dislike Catholicism so it is no surprise that evangelical pastors' associations do not give much consideration to the Catholic Church pastors and elders in their area.
And your church would swap pulpits? I douby it
 

MoreCoffee

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And your church would swap pulpits? I douby it

No. Not swap pulpits since we do not have pulpits. But Catholic churches have been known to invite Protestant and Orthodox pastors to speak in Church.
 

psalms 91

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No. Not swap pulpits since we do not have pulpits. But Catholic churches have been known to invite Protestant and Orthodox pastors to speak in Church.
That is encouraging but given the ban on communion and your view of being the only true church I am surprised
 

MoreCoffee

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That is encouraging but given the ban on communion and your view of being the only true church I am surprised

I imagine you're surprised because you know so few facts about the Catholic Church.
 

MoreCoffee

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The Catechism of the Catholic Church Compendium teaches these things about being the people of God.

The Church: people of God,
body of Christ, temple of the Spirit
153. Why is the Church the ‘people of God’?
The Church is the ‘people of God’ because it pleased God to sanctify and save men not in isolation but by making them into one people gathered together by the unity of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.​
154. What are the characteristics of the people of God?
One becomes a member of this people through faith in Christ and Baptism. This people has for its origin God the Father; for its head Jesus Christ; for its hallmark the dignity and freedom of the sons of God; for its law the new commandment of love; for its mission to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world; and for its destiny the Kingdom of God, already begun on earth.​
155. In what way does the people of God share in the three functions of Christ as Priest, Prophet and King?
The people of God participate in Christ's priestly office insofar as the baptized are consecrated by the Holy Spirit to offer spiritual sacrifices. They share in Christ’s prophetic office when with a supernatural sense of faith they adhere unfailingly to that faith and deepen their understanding and witness to it. The people of God share in his kingly office by means of service, imitating Jesus Christ who as King of the universe made himself the servant of all, especially the poor and the suffering.​
156. In what way is the Church the body of Christ?
The risen Christ unites his faithful people to himself in an intimate way by means of the Holy Spirit. In this way, those who believe in Christ, in as much as they are close to him especially in the Eucharist, are united among themselves in charity. They form one body, the Church, whose unity is experienced in the diversity of its members and its functions.​
157. Who is the Head of this body?
Christ “is the Head of the body, the Church” (Colossians 1:18). The Church lives from him, in him and for him. Christ and the Church make up the “whole Christ” (Saint Augustine); “Head and members form, as it were, one and the same mystical person” (Saint Thomas Aquinas).​
158. Why is the Church called the “Bride of Christ”?
She is called the “Bride of Christ” because the Lord himself called himself her “Spouse” (Mark 2:19). The Lord has loved the Church and has joined her to himself in an everlasting covenant. He has given himself up for her in order to purify her with his blood and “sanctify her” (Ephesians 5:26), making her the fruitful mother of all the children of God. While the term “body” expresses the unity of the “head” with the members, the term “bride” emphasizes the distinction of the two in their personal relationship.​
159. Why is the Church called the temple of the Holy Spirit?
She is so called because the Holy Spirit resides in the body which is the Church, in her Head and in her members. He also builds up the Church in charity by the Word of God, the sacraments, the virtues, and charisms.
“What the soul is to the human body, the Holy Spirit is to the members of Christ, that is, the body of Christ, which is the Church.” (Saint Augustine)​
160. What are charisms?
Charisms are special gifts of the Holy Spirit which are bestowed on individuals for the good of others, the needs of the world, and in particular for the building up of the Church. The discernment of charisms is the responsibility of the Magisterium.
 

psalms 91

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I imagine you're surprised because you know so few facts about the Catholic Church.
More because of the exclusionary nature of the church for anyone outside of it
 

MoreCoffee

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More because of the exclusionary nature of the church for anyone outside of it

Your reply is an example of know few facts. You could try reading Gaudem et spes. (in English) (see here)
 

psalms 91

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MC correct me if I am wrong. Did you not saffirm that you have a closed communion to only those who belong to your church and do you not say that the Catholic church is the only true church and that everyone else that is outside ofm it wrong? Do you not make statements using the word Catholic saying all but really meaning the church? Just in this thread I believe that has happened
 

MoreCoffee

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MC correct me if I am wrong. Did you not saffirm that you have a closed communion to only those who belong to your church and do you not say that the Catholic church is the only true church and that everyone else that is outside ofm it wrong? Do you not make statements using the word Catholic saying all but really meaning the church? Just in this thread I believe that has happened

I have no idea what you mean by "closed communion" but for clarity's sake Catholics invite all who truly believe in the real presence to partake of communion but since nearly no Protestant believes as Catholics do about the real presence no invitation can legitimately be extended to them. If you, for example, attended mass it would be right and proper for you to refrain from partaking as saint Paul advises when he writes And so, whoever eats this bread, or drinks from the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be liable of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and, in this way, let him eat from that bread, and drink from that cup. For whoever eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks a sentence against himself, not discerning it to be the body of the Lord. As a result, many are weak and sick among you, and many have fallen asleep. But if we ourselves were discerning, then certainly we would not be judged. Yet when we are judged, we are being corrected by the Lord, so that we might not be condemned along with this world. And so, my brothers, when you assemble together to eat, be attentive to one another.
1 Corinthians 11:27-33
 

Josiah

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.


[BILL - read this reply to MoreCoffee]



I have no idea what you mean by "closed communion" but for clarity's sake Catholics invite all who truly believe in the real presence to partake of communion


Wrong. As a Lutheran, I fully embrace Real Presence but I am NOT at all welcomed to the Eucharist of the individual Roman Catholic Church. I may come forward for a blessing but not for the Eucharist. I don't disagree with that policy, but it is NOT true that the RC Denomination welcomes Protestants equally with Catholics to the Sacrament (even if they do accept Real Presence as Lutherans and some Anglicans and Methodist do). What you state here is simply not true.



since nearly no Protestant believes as Catholics do about the real presence


Again, this is a gross misstatement. MANY Protestants (including the 70 + million Lutherans) DO fully embrace Real Presence. True - NONE but modern Roman Catholics since the Council of Trent in the 16th Century accept the pagan pre-science falsehood of Transubstantiation as De Fide Dogma, but that's not Real Presence. And even if I as a member of the LCMS who has officially TERMINATED my membership in the RCC ... even if I did accept as DE FIDE DOGMA the false pagan idea of Transubstantiation, I still would not be welcomed to the Eucharist of the individual ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH because I'm not Catholic, I do not docilicly swallow whole all that the individual, singular RC Denomination currently officially teaches because it itself alone currently does.... THAT'S what means the RCC will refuse me the Eucharist. Again, I'm not arguing against that polity (Bill is!) I'm just calling you out on what all Catholics (and ex-Catholics) KNOW is a gross falsehood - you aren't telling it like it is, my friend. And Bill should not be fooled by your misstatement here.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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Josiah, you appear satisfied with the heresies you proclaim so who am I to attempt to reform them. As for your statements regarding the Catholic Church's teaching they are not true. You may profit from reading Gaudium et Spes - available here.
 

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The text below is taken from UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO the DECREE ON ECUMENISM (source)

CHAPTER III
CHURCHES AND ECCLESIAL COMMUNITIES SEPARATED FROM THE ROMAN APOSTOLIC SEE
13. We now turn our attention to the two chief types of division as they affect the seamless robe of Christ.
The first divisions occurred in the East, when the dogmatic formulae of the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon were challenged, and later when ecclesiastical communion between the Eastern Patriarchates and the Roman See was dissolved.
Other divisions arose more than four centuries later in the West, stemming from the events which are usually referred to as "The Reformation." As a result, many Communions, national or confessional, were separated from the Roman See. Among those in which Catholic traditions and institutions in part continue to exist, the Anglican Communion occupies a special place.
These various divisions differ greatly from one another not only by reason of their origin, place and time, but especially in the nature and seriousness of questions bearing on faith and the structure of the Church. Therefore, without minimizing the differences between the various Christian bodies, and without overlooking the bonds between them which exist in spite of divisions, this holy Council decides to propose the following considerations for prudent ecumenical action.
...

II. Separated Churches and Ecclesial Communities in the West
19. In the great upheaval which began in the West toward the end of the Middle Ages, and in later times too, Churches and ecclesial Communities came to be separated from the Apostolic See of Rome. Yet they have retained a particularly close affinity with the Catholic Church as a result of the long centuries in which all Christendom lived together in ecclesiastical communion.
However, since these Churches and ecclesial Communities, on account of their different origins, and different teachings in matters of doctrine on the spiritual life, vary considerably not only with us, but also among themselves, the task of describing them at all adequately is extremely difficult; and we have no intention of making such an attempt here.
Although the ecumenical movement and the desire for peace with the Catholic Church have not yet taken hold everywhere, it is our hope that ecumenical feeling and mutual esteem may gradually increase among all men.
It must however be admitted that in these Churches and ecclesial Communities there exist important differences from the Catholic Church, not only of a historical, sociological, psychological and cultural character, but especially in the interpretation of revealed truth. To make easier the ecumenical dialogue in spite of these differences, we wish to set down some considerations which can, and indeed should, serve as a basis and encouragement for such dialogue.

20. Our thoughts turn first to those Christians who make open confession of Jesus Christ as God and Lord and as the sole Mediator between God and men, to the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We are aware indeed that there exist considerable divergences from the doctrine of the Catholic Church concerning Christ Himself, the Word of God made flesh, the work of redemption, and consequently, concerning the mystery and ministry of the Church, and the role of Mary in the plan of salvation. But we rejoice to see that our separated brethren look to Christ as the source and center of Church unity. Their longing for union with Christ inspires them to seek an ever closer unity, and also to bear witness to their faith among the peoples of the earth.

21. A love and reverence of Sacred Scripture which might be described as devotion, leads our brethren to a constant meditative study of the sacred text. For the Gospel "is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and then to the Greek".[SUP](39)[/SUP]
While invoking the Holy Spirit, they seek in these very Scriptures God as it were speaking to them in Christ, Whom the prophets foretold, Who is the Word of God made flesh for us. They contemplate in the Scriptures the life of Christ and what the Divine Master taught and did for our salvation, especially the mysteries of His death and resurrection.
But while the Christians who are separated from us hold the divine authority of the Sacred Books, they differ from ours - some in one way, some in another - regarding the relationship between Scripture and the Church. For, according to Catholic belief, the authentic teaching authority of the Church has a special place in the interpretation and preaching of the written word of God.
But Sacred Scriptures provide for the work of dialogue an instrument of the highest value in the mighty hand of God for the attainment of that unity which the Saviour holds out to all.

22. Whenever the Sacrament of Baptism is duly administered as Our Lord instituted it, and is received with the right dispositions, a person is truly incorporated into the crucified and glorified Christ, and reborn to a sharing of the divine life, as the Apostle says: "You were buried together with Him in Baptism, and in Him also rose again - through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead".[SUP](40)[/SUP]
Baptism therefore establishes a sacramental bond of unity which links all who have been reborn by it. But of itself Baptism is only a beginning, an inauguration wholly directed toward the fullness of life in Christ. Baptism, therefore, envisages a complete profession of faith, complete incorporation in the system of salvation such as Christ willed it to be, and finally complete ingrafting in eucharistic communion.
Though the ecclesial Communities which are separated from us lack the fullness of unity with us flowing from Baptism, and though we believe they have not retained the proper reality of the eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Orders, nevertheless when they commemorate His death and resurrection in the Lord's Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and look forward to His coming in glory. Therefore the teaching concerning the Lord's Supper, the other sacraments, worship, the ministry of the Church, must be the subject of the dialogue.

23. The daily Christian life of these brethren is nourished by their faith in Christ and strengthened by the grace of Baptism and by hearing the word of God. This shows itself in their private prayer, their meditation on the Bible, in their Christian family life, and in the worship of a community gathered together to praise God. Moreover, their form of worship sometimes displays notable features of the liturgy which they shared with us of old.
Their faith in Christ bears fruit in praise and thanksgiving for the blessings received from the hands of God. Among them, too, is a strong sense of justice and a true charity toward their neighbor. This active faith has been responsible for many organizations for the relief of spiritual and material distress, the furtherance of the education of youth, the improvement of the social conditions of life, and the promotion of peace throughout the world.
While it is true that many Christians understand the moral teaching of the Gospel differently from Catholics, and do not accept the same solutions to the more difficult problems of modern society, nevertheless they share our desire to stand by the words of Christ as the source of Christian virtue, and to obey the command of the Apostle: "And whatever you do, in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through Him".[SUP](41)[/SUP] For that reason an ecumenical dialogue might start with discussion of the application of the Gospel to moral conduct.

24. Now that we have briefly set out the conditions for ecumenical action and the principles by which it is to be directed, we look with confidence to the future. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time.
It is the urgent wish of this Holy Council that the measures undertaken by the sons of the Catholic Church should develop in conjunction with those of our separated brethren so that no obstacle be put in the ways of divine Providence and no preconceived judgments impair the future inspirations of the Holy Spirit. The Council moreover professes its awareness that human powers and capacities cannot achieve this holy objective - the reconciling of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ. It is because of this that the Council rests all its hope on the prayer of Christ for the Church, on our Father's love for us, and on the power of the Holy Spirit." And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us".[SUP](42)[/SUP]
Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.​
39. Rom. 1, 16.
40. Col. 2, 12; cf. Rom. 6, 4
41. Col. 3, 17.
42. Rom. 5, 5.
 

Josiah

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Josiah, you appear satisfied with the heresies you proclaim so who am I to attempt to reform them.


You may state a position I've stated as dogma - and refute it with Scripture.

But I don't think you'll even try.


You stated that all who accept Real Presence are welcome to the Eucharist in the RC Denomination. I called you on it (because you know you stated a falsehood). THAT's the point of our current discussion.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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You may state a position I've stated as dogma - and refute it with Scripture.

But I don't think you'll even try.

Of course not. I don't subscribe to sola scriptura. I won't be playing on your playing field according to your rules. Theology's sources are deeper and wider than the texts in the holy bible especially a holy bible eviscerated to 66 books. You want no serious discussion just parroting the mantras of your own theological prejudices.
 

Josiah

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Of course not. I don't subscribe to sola scriptura. I won't be playing on your playing field according to your rules. Theology's sources are deeper and wider than the texts in the holy bible especially a holy bible eviscerated to 66 books. You want no serious discussion just parroting the mantras of your own theological prejudices.

I think it's you that just copy/pastes the nonsense you often find from some RC Denomination source - with NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to indicate a single word of it is true, NOTHING to support even one word of it.



MoreCoffee said:
Catholics invite all who truly believe in the real presence to partake of communion

.... and when you don't copy/paste the totally unsupported stuff you find, you at times misstate it. You said the above.... and you are very, very wrong (but won't admit it).


I'm being uncharacteristicly unkind...... sorry.... but I tire of the utter nonsense of some points in Catholicism and of the Catholic propensity to exempt ANYTHING they think is Catholic from any accountability or any sense of truthfulness. This "docility" this "just PARROT it, copy/paste it - cuz it doesn't matter if it's true".... I tired it of it. And the egomania, the power-quest, the individualism and institutional OBSESSIONS of that denomination.
 
Last edited:

MoreCoffee

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I think it's you that just copy/pastes the nonsense you often find from some RC Denomination source - with NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to indicate a single word of it is true, NOTHING to support even one word of it.

Anybody who wants to know what the Catholic Church teaches will read what the Catholic Church presents as its teaching. If you don't want to read it then don't. I am not going to shed a tear over that. But you won't be discussing Catholic Church teaching if you go to some other source or some anti-Catholic propaganda sheet.
 

Josiah

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Anybody who wants to know what the Catholic Church teaches will read what the Catholic Church presents as its teaching. If you don't want to read it then don't. I am not going to shed a tear over that. But you won't be discussing Catholic Church teaching if you go to some other source or some anti-Catholic propaganda sheet.


You are just EVADING every single word posted to you.

And just PARROTING whatever the RCC itself says - with ZERO interest or concern in whether one word of it is true (which is why you offer NOTHING to show ANY of it is true). You are just confirming what I've posted.


MoreCoffee said:
Catholics invite all who truly believe in the real presence to partake of communion


.... and when you don't copy/paste the totally unsupported stuff you find, you at times misstate it. You said the above.... and you are very, very wrong (but won't admit it). You will not (because you cannot) docilicly parrot the RC Denomination saying what you do because it doesn't.


I'm being uncharacteristicly unkind...... sorry.... but I tire of the utter nonsense of some points in Catholicism and of the Catholic propensity to exempt ANYTHING they think is Catholic from any accountability or any sense of truthfulness. This "docility" this "just PARROT it, copy/paste it - cuz it doesn't matter if it's true".... I tired it of it. And the egomania, the power-quest, the individualism and institutional OBSESSIONS of that denomination.



.
 

MoreCoffee

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Josiah, do you believe what the Catholic Church teaches about the real presence? No? Then you are not invited to partake in a Catholic Church. It's simple. No special pleading will fix it. You may believing something that you call the real presence but you do not believe Catholic teaching on the matter so you cannot rightly (or worthily) partake in a Catholic Church.
 

Josiah

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Josiah, do you believe what the Catholic Church teaches about the real presence? No? Then you are not invited to partake in a Catholic Church. It's simple.


Because you stated FALSEHOOD. Yes, I accept Real Presence - many do. NO, I am NOT welcome to receive the Sacrament in a parish owned and operated by the individual RC Denomination. It's simple. You stated a falsehood.


t you do not believe Catholic teaching on the matter so you cannot rightly (or worthily) partake in a Catholic Church.


Right. Believing in Real Presence has nothing to do with ANYTHING in the individual RC Denomination, obviously many Protestants believe in Real Presense at least as much as the individual RC Denomination does - thus your falsehood, attempting to mislead Bill. It does NOT welcome ALL who believe in Real Presence to the Eucharist. That's a lie. As I stated, I do not accept as DE FIDE DOGMA the false, pagan, theory of Transubstantiation that the RCC made dogma a few years after Luther's death .... and true, I do not accept as DE FIDE DOGMA the plethora of new, UNIQUE dogmas of the individual RC Denomination (such as the INFALLIBILITY of the RCC's own Bishop in Rome - 1870) and THAT'S why I'm refused Communion..... NOT because I accept Real Presence at least as firmly as the current RC Denomination does, but because I don't swallow whole with absolute docility WHATEVER the individual, unique RC Denomination alone now says BECAUSE it itself alone now does: THAT'S why I'm refused the Eucharist, not because I accept Real Presence. You stated a gross falsehood to Bill. And rather than admitting it, you ran. TRYING to say the problem is some "anti Catholic" feeling in me instead of a clear misstatement in you.


You like to just PARROT whatever you think the RC Denomination says.... regardless of whether there's one word of truth in any of it. This confirms all stated about Catholicism. But at times, you MISSTATE what the RC denomination says - hum, maybe you are NOT the docility submitter you need to be.... or just misstate things.
 
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