Bible "contradictions" - do we sin or not?

[tango]

Two verses from the same letter to think about:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

On the face of it this looks like it's saying that if we say we have no sin we are liars, but if we abide in Him we do not sin. This looks like an interesting contradiction. Anyone got any thoughts on this one?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Two verses from the same letter to think about:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

On the face of it this looks like it's saying that if we say we have no sin we are liars, but if we abide in Him we do not sin. This looks like an interesting contradiction. Anyone got any thoughts on this one?

Looks like it may be like the two proverbs that say

• Do not respond to the foolish according to his folly, lest you become like him.
• Respond to the foolish according to his folly, lest he imagine himself to be wise.

Maybe the words have more than one meaning and the meaning is determined by the immediate context. "respond to a fool" appears to view the fool as uninformed but trainable while "don't respond to a fool" appears to view the fool as obstinately determined to remain a fool.

In a similar way the context of saint John's comments might be the clue as to what he was thinking when he wrote those things.

• Don't pretend to sinless perfection because doing so makes God a liar when he says that everybody has sinned (and that is a blasphemy that even a fool ought to avoid).
• Christians don't sin while they are abiding in Christ (how could they? Christ is sinless - he is God and God cannot sin - so if you are abiding in Christ you can't be sinning because that would make Christ a sinner and hence make God a liar).

That's one possible way to read what saint John intends by what he wrote.

 

[Tigger]

Rather than biblical contradictions it does contain paradoxes. One such is Simul justus et peccator=A Christian is simultaneously saint and sinner.

 

[Josiah]

Rather than biblical contradictions it does contain paradoxes. One such is Simul justus et peccator=A Christian is simultaneously saint and sinner.

Exactly.


Good to have you here, Tigger!

 

[psalms 91]

The other is to look at the spiritual side of being in Christ and the flesh which sins

 

[Wilhemena]

I have seen the KJV indicate a present tense which would mean that the person is engaging in ongoing sin and in denial that it is harmful to him and God indeed warns us that sin separates us from him.

 

[tango]

Liking the thoughts here (and just realised it's been a while since I was in here, what with Christmas and all that)

I'm leaning towards the idea that we cannot claim sinlessness but shouldn't be habitually sinning. If we sin willfully and deliberately, knowing something to be sin and not even attempting to avoid it, we should perhaps be taking a good look at what we are doing and why. It sounds like part of the idea of testing ourselves to be sure we are still in the faith.

 

[TheVeryEnd]

The Holy Spirit has taught me that the spirit of man is sinless and always has been since man was created. However, the flesh of man was born of Satan and the world that is perceived by the created senses of man. The flesh of man ( sinner ) perishes during this first generation and the day your flesh perishes, your "sinless" spirit in God is free from the flesh.

 

[Lamb]

Could you provide scripture to back up your claim that man's spirit is sinless and has been since creation?

 

[TheVeryEnd]

Don't you believe that the Holy Spirit can teach us about the spirit of MAN and GOD?

John 12
44: And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
45: And he who sees me sees him who sent me.
46: I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
47: If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48: He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
49: For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.
50: And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me."

Psalm 32
8: I will instruct you and teach you the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you.

 

[Lamb]

I don't see the proof of your claim in the scripture you provided. I believe the Holy Spirit. On our site we just don't trust what others say. We back it up with scriptural proof. Otherwise we view it as opinion.

 

[MoreCoffee]

People sin. That much is directly stated in the holy scriptures. Some examples are in saint Paul's letters.

Rom 3:9-20 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23* For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(Cambridge Bible)* Romans 3:23
all have sinned] Lit. all sinned: the Gr. aorist. Probably the time-reference of the tense is to the original Fall of Man, regarded as involving the individual experience of sinfulness in the case of each person. See however on Rom 1:19.

come short] A present tense. The result of the Fall is that they are now “short of the glory of God.” The word translated “come short” is translated “to be in want” (Luk 15:14); “to suffer need” (Php 4:12); “to be destitute” (Heb 11:37). Here the context suggests that modification of its root-meaning given in E. V.: “to suffer from defect,” “to fail to attain.”—“The glory of God” must here be His moral glory, His holiness and its requirements. In many passages the Word “glory” is used with evident reference to the Divine moral attributes—mercy, faithfulness, love—as well as to Divine power. See Rom 6:4; 2Co 4:4 (“the gospel of the glory of Christ”); Eph 1:12; Eph 1:14; 1Ti 1:11 (“the gospel of the glory of the blessed God”). Fallen man lies hopelessly below the standard of the spiritual law which is the expression of the essential holiness of God.

 

[Josiah]

People sin. That much is directly stated in the holy scriptures. Some examples are in saint Paul's letters.

Rom 3:9-20 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23* For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(Cambridge Bible)* Romans 3:23
all have sinned] Lit. all sinned: the Gr. aorist. Probably the time-reference of the tense is to the original Fall of Man, regarded as involving the individual experience of sinfulness in the case of each person. See however on Rom 1:19.

come short] A present tense. The result of the Fall is that they are now “short of the glory of God.” The word translated “come short” is translated “to be in want” (Luk 15:14); “to suffer need” (Php 4:12); “to be destitute” (Heb 11:37). Here the context suggests that modification of its root-meaning given in E. V.: “to suffer from defect,” “to fail to attain.”—“The glory of God” must here be His moral glory, His holiness and its requirements. In many passages the Word “glory” is used with evident reference to the Divine moral attributes—mercy, faithfulness, love—as well as to Divine power. See Rom 6:4; 2Co 4:4 (“the gospel of the glory of Christ”); Eph 1:12; Eph 1:14; 1Ti 1:11 (“the gospel of the glory of the blessed God”). Fallen man lies hopelessly below the standard of the spiritual law which is the expression of the essential holiness of God.

Well stated. And good use of Sola Scriptura.

:high5:

 

[TheVeryEnd]

None of God's servants who testified to the knowledge called Christ starting 2,000 years ago had to carry any scriptures with them and neither did the chosen believers who were put in the path of the Gospel that they were chosen to listen to. God's chosen believers heard the Gospel and believed those words were coming from their Father who art in Heaven and totally invisible to man. It's all based on trust and belief.

If you don't trust me as one of God's servants who preach the Gospel for Him, then it's not me who has the problem of hearing his Word. Any liar can use the scriptures to back up their claims as all false prophets do who build false gods ( church buildings ) with their human hands to preach lies to their congregations in. All false prophets need to use a Bible because none of them were ever used to testify to the knowledge called Christ. In fact, false prophets have never heard the voice of God or obeyed any of His commandments.

1 John 2:
4: He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Matthew 7
21: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22: On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23: And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

An evildoer is one who preaches from the Bible in vain without ever hearing God's voice speaking into his mind. Without hearing the voice, it's impossible to obey His commandments.

 

[Rens]

None of God's servants who testified to the knowledge called Christ starting 2,000 years ago had to carry any scriptures with them and neither did the chosen believers who were put in the path of the Gospel that they were chosen to listen to. God's chosen believers heard the Gospel and believed those words were coming from their Father who art in Heaven and totally invisible to man. It's all based on trust and belief.

If you don't trust me as one of God's servants who preach the Gospel for Him, then it's not me who has the problem of hearing his Word. Any liar can use the scriptures to back up their claims as all false prophets do who build false gods ( church buildings ) with their human hands to preach lies to their congregations in. All false prophets need to use a Bible because none of them were ever used to testify to the knowledge called Christ. In fact, false prophets have never heard the voice of God or obeyed any of His commandments.

1 John 2:
4: He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Matthew 7
21: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22: On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23: And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

An evildoer is one who preaches from the Bible in vain without ever hearing God's voice speaking into his mind. Without hearing the voice, it's impossible to obey His commandments.

Hey!!! How are you doing? You used to post in christian forums Spirit filled/ charismatic. I recognize you from one post!

 

[Josiah]

Hey!!! How are you doing? You used to post in christian forums Spirit filled/ charismatic. I recognize you from one post!

The "God and ME" and "the Holy Speaks just speaks to ME" and "I know cuz I just know" thing is largely why I left the RCC. I have found that even more radical forms of it exists outside Catholicism, too.

 

[TheVeryEnd]

I've been preaching the Gospel online since June 16th, 2008, the very first day God had me start writing words He put on the tip of my tongue for the first three writings. Now I can speak those words like nothing but it took awhile to learn how to speak them instead of writing 14 hours a day for 2 1/2 years. Speaking those words with power and conviction takes quite awhile to learn.

 

[MoreCoffee]

People sin. That much is directly stated in the holy scriptures. Some examples are in saint Paul's letters.

Rom 3:9-20 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23* For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(Cambridge Bible)* Romans 3:23
all have sinned] Lit. all sinned: the Gr. aorist. Probably the time-reference of the tense is to the original Fall of Man, regarded as involving the individual experience of sinfulness in the case of each person. See however on Rom 1:19.

come short] A present tense. The result of the Fall is that they are now “short of the glory of God.” The word translated “come short” is translated “to be in want” (Luk 15:14); “to suffer need” (Php 4:12); “to be destitute” (Heb 11:37). Here the context suggests that modification of its root-meaning given in E. V.: “to suffer from defect,” “to fail to attain.”—“The glory of God” must here be His moral glory, His holiness and its requirements. In many passages the Word “glory” is used with evident reference to the Divine moral attributes—mercy, faithfulness, love—as well as to Divine power. See Rom 6:4; 2Co 4:4 (“the gospel of the glory of Christ”); Eph 1:12; Eph 1:14; 1Ti 1:11 (“the gospel of the glory of the blessed God”). Fallen man lies hopelessly below the standard of the spiritual law which is the expression of the essential holiness of God.

Well stated. And good use of Sola Scriptura.

:high5:

Sorry Josiah, you've misread my post. It is an example of the use of holy scripture without any implication that the holy scriptures are the "alone" source of inerrant and authoritative revelation about God.

 

[Josiah]

Sorry Josiah, you've misread my post. It is an example of the use of holy scripture

... normatively. Which is, of course, the definition of the praxis of Sola Scripture. As I noted, you did a GREAT job of Sola Scriptura in your post! And I couldn't help but affirm and congratulate you for your use of it! Good for you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... normatively. Which is, of course, the definition of the praxis of Sola Scripture. As I noted, you did a GREAT job of Sola Scriptura in your post! And I couldn't help but affirm and congratulate you for your use of it! Good for you.

Josiah, you've misread my latest post. The earlier post was an example of the use of holy scripture without any implication that the holy scriptures are the "alone" source of inerrant and authoritative revelation about God. The latter post is a call to be attentive to what is written.