Count them and see

[MoreCoffee]

In the old testament God is not often called Father. Count the times and see for yourself. Is he ever called "our father God" in the old testament?

What happened? Christians call him Father. In doing so Christians are telling us that something has happened between YHWH/Elohim of the old testament and what Christians do under the new testament. What happened?

 

[psalms 91]

We are part of the family by adoption therefore He is father and Jesus is our brother

 

[Lamb]

The New Testament shows Him as the Father who gives us His Son. This is why it's acceptable to call Him Father.

 

[Pedrito]

The Holy Bible does indeed reveal a transition in the full comprehension of God as Father.

However, it is a transition with respect to intimacy, rather than a lack of revelation, a lack of realisation, or a lack of understanding.

Nor is the difference actually between Old and New Testaments as such, but rather a difference between before and after the atoning death of Jesus, and its presaging in the "Lord's Prayer" and other words of Jesus to His disciples.

We readily see "Old Testament" conditions and understanding clearly documented for us as still existing, in the Gospels. And we see Jesus using "Old Testament" terminology when He spoke to people.

Both the Old and the New Testaments show with clarity that the Jews historically recognised God as Father.

Some quotes follow in the next post or two. The Reader can classify each one as Old Testament or New Testament.

Continued...

 

[Pedrito]

...Continued

Both Old and New Testaments show with clarity that the Jews recognised God as Father.

Some quotes are given below. Are they from the Old Testament or New Testament?

Isaiah 64:8 “But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.”
Jeremiah 31:9 “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”
Isaiah 1:2 “Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.”
Isaiah 63:16 “Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.”
Malachi 2:10 “Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?”
Exodus 4:22 “And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:”
Deuteronomy 1:31 “And in the wilderness, where thou hast seen how that the LORD thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went, until ye came into this place.”
Deuteronomy 32:6 “Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?”
Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.”

Continued...

 

[Pedrito]

...Continued

Both Old and New Testaments show with clarity that the Jews recognised God as Father.

Which are the following quotes from? (A subset of possible quotes, to conserve space.)

Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
Matthew 6:8 “Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.”
Matthew 6:9 “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”
Matthew 6:15 “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 7:11 “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?”
Matthew 10:29 “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.”
Matthew 18:14 “Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.”
Matthew 23:9 “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
Mark 11:26 “But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Luke 6:36 “Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.”
Luke 12:32 “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.”
John 8:41 “Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.”
John 8:42 “Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”
John 20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

Did Jesus anywhere declare that the historical meaning the Jews were placing on the terms He was using (your Father, our Father, etc.), needed modification? Indeed not. Just the opposite.

Continued…

 

[Pedrito]

...Continued

Did the concept of God=Father=God change in the apostolic Gospel?

Romans 1:7 “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
1Corinthians 1:3 “Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
2Corinthians 1:2 “Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 1:3 “Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ”
Galatians 1:4 “Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:”
Ephesians 1:2 “Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Philipians 1:2 “Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Philipians 4:20 “Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
Colossians 1:2 “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
1Thessalonians 1:1 “Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
1Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;”
1Thessalonians 3:11 “Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.”
1Thessalonians 3:13 “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”

(Note: the KJV translation is sometimes awkward. Check in others.)

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Besides, to whom did Jesus teach the disciples to pray as Father? Was it not the very same God/Father that the Jews and their faithful forebears had worshipped all along?

Continued...

 

[visionary]

It really cemented it when Yeshua prayed "Our Father which art in Heaven..."

 

[MoreCoffee]

It really cemented it when Yeshua prayed "Our Father which art in Heaven..."

God is our Father because we are Christ's body, and the Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son.

 

[psalms 91]

Acrtually I thought it was because of adoption making Jesus our big brother and God our father

 

[pinacled]

In the old testament God is not often called Father. Count the times and see for yourself. Is he ever called "our father God" in the old testament?

What happened? Christians call him Father. In doing so Christians are telling us that something has happened between YHWH/Elohim of the old testament and what Christians do under the new testament. What happened?

They are telling us that we now have a mediator. That the Day has been opened to us.
When our Lord read from one of the treasurers.
Ysha'yah: Isaiah
Original Word: יְשַׁעְיָה
Part of Speech: Proper Name Masculine
Transliteration: Ysha'yah
Phonetic Spelling: (yesh-ah-yaw')
Short Definition: Isaiah
Brown-Driver-Briggs
יְשַׁעְיָ֫הוּ proper name, masculine
(salvation of Yah; compare אֱלִישָׁע above; ישעאל on scarab ClGannJAs 1883, Fev.-Mars, 135, No. 8) —
reminded me of
Nechemyah: "Yah comforts," three Israelites
Original Word: נְחֶמְיָה
Part of Speech: Proper Name Masculine
Transliteration: Nechemyah
Phonetic Spelling: (nekh-em-yaw')
Short Definition: Nehemiah
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from nacham and Yah
Definition
"Yah comforts," three Isr.

 

[Pedrito]

...Continued

To whom did Jesus teach the disciples to pray as Father? Was it not the very same God/Father that the Jews and their faithful forebears had worshipped all along?

If there is any doubt about that, consider the people in Israel whose names were designed to display an affinity for God and an acknowledgement of His Fatherhood – names starting with “abi” – names given to acknowledge God as being the father of the named child. Such naming even predated the formation of Israel as a nation proper associated with the Promised Land.

For example:
Abinadab - my father is noble, or, my father is willing.
Abiram - my father is exalted, or, the exalted one is my father.
Abigail - my father is joy.
Abimael - my father is El [God].
Abihu - he is my father.
Abidan - my father is judge.
Abiezer - my father is help.
Abinoam - my father is delight.
Abiah (Abijah) - Yahweh is my father.

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So we see that God’s being recognised, understood and acknowledged to be the Father, God=Father=God, within Israel – without even a hint of a thought otherwise – is unquestionably established by divine revelation.

And we see Jesus using the established, commonly understood terminology regarding the Fatherhood of God, during His ministry – using that terminology without any hint that He was using it in a different way.

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Isn't God's Holy Revelation to us, amazingly wonderful in its consistency?

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #9 on Page 1, MoreCoffee stated:

God is our Father because we are Christ's body, and the Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son.

Pedrito has to ask, does that even make sense?

“God is our Father because we are Christ's body”

“God is our Father” – most definitely – God is our Father – that is totally in line with Scripture.

But: “because we are Christ's body”? Doesn’t being Christ’s body mean we have the same relationship with God that Jesus (the head of the body) does?

“and the Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son.”

Actually, the Holy Bible consistently calls Jesus “the Son of God”. The creedal term “God the Son” is a post-apostolic appellation (a post-apostolic title or designation).

And “God is our Father because we are Christ's body” makes sense only if the Scriptural definition of Jesus as being “Son of God” is the true one. Note: MoreCoffee did not state “’God the Father’ is our Father”.

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And now for a bit of fun.

As recorded in Acts 17:22-31 (and mentioned by MoreCoffee in Post #26), Paul addresses (by invitation) people steeped in Greek philosophy. He homes in on the Unknown God to whom an altar had been erected, and uses that as an opening to proclaim the True God.

In verse 28 and 29, Paul states [emphasis added]:
“28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.”

Offspring = "children or young of a particular parent or progenitor".

So God was Father of pagans as well, in Paul's day.

“God is our Father because we are Christ's body, and the Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son.” ????

Not really.

(We even know the poet and the poem Paul was particularly quoting from. And Paul in no way implied that what he was quoting from there was included in the understood set of Scripture that Jesus and Paul (for instance) referred to. And Paul knew that Timothy knew exactly what the definitive contents of that Scripture were.)

 

[MoreCoffee]

God is our Father because we are Christ's body, and the Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son.

Pedrito, the statement above means this: God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians are united to Christ as limbs and organs are united to the body. Since the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God it follows with inexorable logic that his organs and limbs are part of his being defined as the Son of God hence the limbs and organs are part of the Son of God. There is also the explicit statement in the canonical holy scriptures that Christians are adopted as Sons of God. If Jesus pointed to his finger and said "I am the Son of God so is this the Son of God?" the only accurate reply is "yes it is because it is you."

 

[Pedrito]

This is so cool!

In Post #9 on Page 1, MoreCoffee originally stated:

God is our Father because we are Christ's body, and the Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son.

In Post #13 on Page 2, Pedrito pointed out that God could only be the Father of Christ's body if Christ was "the Son of God" (as He is said to be in Holy Scripture), and not "God the Son" (a definition that came into being in post-apostolic times).

In Post #14 on Page 2, MoreCoffee actually agreed with Pedrito [emphasis added]:

Pedrito, the statement above means this: God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians are united to Christ as limbs and organs are united to the body. Since the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God it follows with inexorable logic that his organs and limbs are part of his being defined as the Son of God hence the limbs and organs are part of the Son of God. There is also the explicit statement in the canonical holy scriptures that Christians are adopted as Sons of God. If Jesus pointed to his finger and said "I am the Son of God so is this the Son of God?" the only accurate reply is "yes it is because it is you."

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But here is the twist.

MoreCoffee used those statements to bolster his statement that Jesus was "God the Son".

Read MoreCoffee's post again. Here are some portions that can in no way be claimed to be out of context.

“Pedrito, the statement above means this: God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ...the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God...the Son of God... the Son of God... Christians are adopted as Sons of God..."I am the Son of God so is this the Son of God?"...”

So multiple statements describing Jesus as “the Son of God” as does Holy Scripture, are employed to demonstrate that “the Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son”

It is readily observable, but rarely acknowledged, that churches condition their adherents into believing that the terms “the Son of God” and “God the Son” are synonymous. That is done so that the terms can be used interchangeably as they have to be if Scriptural support is sought for certain doctrine developed in post-apostolic times.

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While Pedrito often disagrees with MoreCoffee, Pedrito thinks it only fair to acknowledge MoreCoffee’s statements that Pedrito thinks are correct.

Pedrito acknowledges the correctness and Scripturality of MoreCoffee’s “God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ” and “the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God”

Who was the Father of whom? Who was the Son of whom? (According to Scripture, that is.)