Social activism - people power

tango

... and you shall live ...
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The packing in Australia is neither forced at children nor aimed at reaching them. There is no design to mislead manipulate or otherwise use children for nefarious purposes. The packaging is blatant, direct, even scary and deliberately so. That children - once they learn to read and have developed some reasoning ability - upon seeing them may raise the matter with their smoking parent is part of normal and natural development given the stimulus. I don't quite understand the motive behind your posts characterising it as something manipulative and possibly evil.

I started in response to this post:

The packaging has an effect on children especially the children of smokers. Once their children reach an age sufficient to read and to ask questions the pictures and warnings cause many children to ask their smoking parent about it and sometimes to plead with them not to get sick from smoking. Other factors, such a price, play a significant role for those who do not have children as well as those who do.

As Rens mentioned further up (and I realise she is one data point rather than a detailed study) when she was addicted to smoking she paid the higher price and merely went without food. Anecdotal evidence suggests she is far from an isolated case. So it seems that the system allows people to become addicted to something, then hikes the price and gives all sorts of ever-more graphic warnings of what might happen (presented in a sensationalist manner for maximum impact) and then merely fleeces them for every penny the state can extract. Then for good measure countries like the UK, having taken ever-more in smoking-related taxes, start talking about denying medical treatment to smokers because their problems are self-inflicted.

Since you mentioned the way the packaging has an effect on children I'm surprised at you questioning my focus on the effect on children.
 

psalms 91

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I started in response to this post:



As Rens mentioned further up (and I realise she is one data point rather than a detailed study) when she was addicted to smoking she paid the higher price and merely went without food. Anecdotal evidence suggests she is far from an isolated case. So it seems that the system allows people to become addicted to something, then hikes the price and gives all sorts of ever-more graphic warnings of what might happen (presented in a sensationalist manner for maximum impact) and then merely fleeces them for every penny the state can extract. Then for good measure countries like the UK, having taken ever-more in smoking-related taxes, start talking about denying medical treatment to smokers because their problems are self-inflicted.

Since you mentioned the way the packaging has an effect on children I'm surprised at you questioning my focus on the effect on children.

Pretty hard for me to see the difference between the state hiking prices and a drug dealer that gives free samples and then gouges people for the product
 

Rens

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My sister stopped because her son had a dummy and she wanted him to stop putting that thing in his mouth. Then you stop with cigs! They stopped together.
 

Lamb

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Tobacco companies would not advertise cigarettes if the advertising didn't have a measurable positive outcome for their profits. Even if they need to fund anti-smoking advertising they must still see a positive outcome for their profits in advertising cigarettes.

I'd like it better if the USA Tobacco companies had to pay money to a third party - something like a health promotion fund - that would manage anti-smoking advertising.

In the United States tobacco companies are limited on what they can advertise. They're forced to do anti-tobacco campaign payments as I stated and that does not profit them since they aren't advertising for their brands.
 

MoreCoffee

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In the United States tobacco companies are limited on what they can advertise. They're forced to do anti-tobacco campaign payments as I stated and that does not profit them since they aren't advertising for their brands.

In Australia tobacco companies are not allowed to advertise their product in any of the media - no print, no billboards, no radio, no television, and if the internet site is hosted in Australia then not on the internet either.
 
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Josiah

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Many jurisdictions are in a bit of a quandary concerning the use of tobacco....

On the one hand, it clearly is unhealthy even dangerous, it adds to health care costs (sometimes paid by the government) and to loss productivity. On the other hand, these same jurisdictions are unwilling to simply outlaw it - either because they conclude that's impossible or because they fear the tobacco industry (and votes of smokers) or like the taxes it provides or simply view this as beyond the realms of proper authority and exercise of power (tobacco being under permitted liberty).

That quandary often results in several actions:
1. Taxing the ___ out of it in hopes that increased cost will decrease use (this seems to work - to a limit and gets the government money, always seem as a beautiful, wonderful thing to government)
2. Limit or prohibit promoting (such as ads, naming rights, etc.)
3. Placing warnings on the product and/or in other ways to inform and dissuade.
4. Place age restrictions
5. Place restrictions on when and where it may be purchased.
6. Restrict locations where smoking is permitted.

All these things work - to a certain extent. But it does create a bit of a "mixed message" - legal but discouraged.

Of course, the same quandary exists for alcohol use. And in some jurisdictions, for pot. Even plastic bags!





Smoking Rates

n the USA, 19.7% of adults 18 and over are smokers.
Where it's lowest: Utah (12.2%), California (15.0%) and Minnesota (15.8%)
Where it's highest: Kentucky (30.2%), West Virginia (29.9%) and Mississippi (27.0)

By country, the USA is 34th in the world (roughly the same as Israel and Australia) - far under the Far East and Eastern Europe.





- Josiah



.
 
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Rens

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In Australia tobacco companies are not allowed to advertise their product in any of the media - no print, no billboards, no radio, no television, and if the internet site is hosted in Australia then not on the internet either.

Same here and in some places it's forbidden to sell it. Also forbidden now to smoke at a workplace. That worked the best. A lot of collegues stopped because it's no fun to smoke outside in the winter. In cafe's it's forbidden. When I started to work people would just smoke before their computer in the same room with an ash tray on their desk.
 

MoreCoffee

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Same here and in some places it's forbidden to sell it. Also forbidden now to smoke at a workplace. That worked the best. A lot of collegues stopped because it's no fun to smoke outside in the winter. In cafe's it's forbidden. When I started to work people would just smoke before their computer in the same room with an ash tray on their desk.

It is also forbidden in Australia to smoke indoors and in many public spaces out of doors too.
 

Rens

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It is also forbidden in Australia to smoke indoors and in many public spaces out of doors too.

Outdoors? Here only at the train station. There are a few spots where you may smoke. People nag about it now that they have to ban them from terraces, but they're like: hey you kicked us out of the cafe, now you stay inside and we go sit in the sun.
 

MoreCoffee

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Outdoors? Here only at the train station. There are a few spots where you may smoke. People nag about it now that they have to ban them from terraces, but they're like: hey you kicked us out of the cafe, now you stay inside and we go sit in the sun.

Government offices usually have a ban on smoking near entry/exit doors and on the property owned by the office-building.
 
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tango

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Many jurisdictions are in a bit of a quandary concerning the use of tobacco....

On the one hand, it clearly is unhealthy even dangerous, it adds to health care costs (sometimes paid by the government) and to loss productivity. On the other hand, these same jurisdictions are unwilling to simply outlaw it - either because they conclude that's impossible or because they fear the tobacco industry (and votes of smokers) or like the taxes it provides or simply view this as beyond the realms of proper authority and exercise of power (tobacco being under permitted liberty).

That quandary often results in several actions:
1. Taxing the ___ out of it in hopes that increased cost will decrease use (this seems to work - to a limit and gets the government money, always seem as a beautiful, wonderful thing to government)
2. Limit or prohibit promoting (such as ads, naming rights, etc.)
3. Placing warnings on the product and/or in other ways to inform and dissuade.
4. Place age restrictions
5. Place restrictions on when and where it may be purchased.
6. Restrict locations where smoking is permitted.

All these things work - to a certain extent. But it does create a bit of a "mixed message" - legal but discouraged.

Of course, the same quandary exists for alcohol use. And in some jurisdictions, for pot. Even plastic bags!

This raises all sorts of problems with the fundamental interactions between the people and the government.

There's the fundamental question of what gives the government the right to increase the price of a product by a huge margin just because it feels like targeting taxation. With socialised healthcare there is an argument to be made that, since the government has to pay the price of treating smoking-related illnesses it's only fair that the smokers should pay towards them through the price of tobacco, but if anything that turns into more of an argument against socialised healthcare at all given the exact same reasoning gives the government justification to clamp down on everything from smoking tobacco to rock climbing to mountain biking to scuba diving and indeed anything else that carries some form of danger.

Limiting the promotion of a product is all well and good but, as you say, it creates the rather bizarre situation where the government says that a product is legal to use and consume but not legal to advertise. It turns legislation from something that makes sense into something that makes no sense. While some would say tobacco should be banned, that in turn feeds into the question of why a substance that grows naturally should be outlawed (a very similar argument comes into play where marijuana is concerned - it's called "weed" for a reason).

There's a related issue in countries where nearby countries have very different tax regimes that's very similar to the concept behind the Laffer curve. As I've mentioned before, in the UK tobacco taxes are very high and it's pretty well known that people buy cigarettes from bootleggers. Typically a bootlegger will drive their van to France, load up on duty-paid cigarettes, then bring them back into the UK. The declaration they are for personal use means no further taxes are due, and the bootlegger can then sell them at a tidy profit. It's illegal but unless the taxman can prove the bootlegger was selling the tobacco a prosecution can't take place because the tobacco is legal to import, legal to own, legal to consume and (I believe) legal to share socially in the sense that if I've got 25,000 cigarettes that came from France and you come to visit me it's legal for you to smoke my cigarettes while you're visiting. So an increase in the taxes keeps anti-smoking pressure groups happy but achieves little other than driving more people into the hands of the bootleggers. And of course while some bootleggers are little more than the entrepreneurial types who see the chances to make an easy profit, it's inconceivable that there aren't some bootleggers out there who are into a lot more shady activity alongside selling foreign cigarettes. So on that regard every increase in tobacco taxes applied by the UK government means the UK taxman gets less money while foreign governments and criminal enterprises get more.


A large part of the problem comes down to the situation in which I choose to take an entirely voluntary risk while someone else gets stuck with the bill to put me back together again if it all goes wrong, and on that basis the someone else can reasonably expect to either control the risks I take or charge me in some way to cover the increased risk. The primary government concern is the cost of treating smoking-related illnesses, which in turn throws the whole question back to the issue of why the government pays to put me back together again if a risk I took voluntarily turns and bites me.
 

tango

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Outdoors? Here only at the train station. There are a few spots where you may smoke. People nag about it now that they have to ban them from terraces, but they're like: hey you kicked us out of the cafe, now you stay inside and we go sit in the sun.

In the UK any "substantially enclosed public space" has an automatic smoking ban. Which leads to some really stupid situations, like the time a pub decided to erect a smoking shelter so its customers who wanted to smoke could take shelter from the elements while smoking outside. However sadly the smoking shelter was a "substantially enclosed public space" and therefore subject to the smoking ban.

Needless to say the government jobsworths didn't see the silliness in banning smoking in a designated smoking shelter.
 

MoreCoffee

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In Australia people can smoke on private property with some exceptions - restaurants, pubs, café and so forth have a general smoking ban.
 
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