USA Health care costs

[MoreCoffee]

Good and informative video on healthcare costs showing that cost increases since ACA are at 5% or so and before ACA 8% or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3mYrOnq2Z4

 

[Lamb]

The problem with Obamacare is that the people who did not have insurance before it (because they could not afford it) STILL can't afford it under Obamacare and get charged a penalty for not having it. That doesn't make sense. And yes, my sister gets charged for not being able to afford it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Become more socialist and have genuine universal health care like most of the rich countries in the world do - some poor countries have it too, Cuba for example.

 

[Lamb]

I'm for it but people complain that the quality of healthcare will go down then.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm for it but people complain that the quality of healthcare will go down then.

Canada has it and Canadians live longer that USAns. Australia has it and we live longer than USAns. Same for most of Western Europe. Can't be all bad if we outlive you probably because of it.

 

[psalms 91]

Definitely for it

 

[Josiah]

Canada has it and Canadians live longer that USAns. Australia has it and we live longer than USA. Same for most of Western Europe. Can't be all bad if we outlive you probably because of it.

Really misleading. The USA is not Canada or Sweden. We have a different population, a difficult culture. Yeah - if you just want to compare WHITE Americans health to that of Canandians - we do at least as well. But we have LARGE aspects of our population that are difficult; the USA is not nearly as monolithic as is Canada or Sweden or Australia.....


Obama PROMISED that we'd all get to keep our doctor - it was a lie. Obama promised that health care costs would go down, significantly - they are going up, faster than ever. Obama promised that all would get health care - many have been pushed out by the rising costs.

Sure - we could have the DMV take over our health care system..... And it could be this actually works in some OTHER countries..... but I think the same thing would result as the DMV. Without a doubt, the chaos in the American system needs reform but one thing has been PROVEN: the socialist approach of Hillary (eventually actually implemented by Obama) just makes it worse. At least in the USA.


I'm not a socialist/communist. I don't believe that the rich getting help via taxes paid by the poor (stealing from the poor to give to the rich) isn't philosphically sound and doesn't work. I believe in giving a helping hand to those who NEED it (not billionaires who don't). If a poor citizen NEEDS health care - I'm 100% in favor of the government supplying it. Donald Trump can afford his own doctor, I don't want to pay for his health care (the essence of communism/socialism). I frankly wish this had been implemented from the beginning - offering SCHOLARSHIPS/GRANTS for example for education (k-college) rather than socialist schools which, because they are government run, do poorly and cost way, way, way too much. We should help those who need help, those who can helping those who can't. But this is a philosophical point that much of the world disagrees with, Karl Marx largely winning over many.

But again, it is simply misleading to compare the USA in many ways to other nations: we are not Sweden or New Zealand or Iceland. "Solutions" that may "work" there are irrelevant to here (and vise versa).




- Josiah

 

[tango]

Become more socialist and have genuine universal health care like most of the rich countries in the world do - some poor countries have it too, Cuba for example.

It's still not a panacea. The UK's healthcare system is the kind of thing some in the US look towards as an example but the quality of care you get in the UK can vary from unbelievably good to so bad you'd think you were in a tinpot banana republic. Just from my own experiences of visiting family members in hospital in the UK I've seen some staff so caring you'd have to wonder whether they really are angels in disguise. I've also seen levels of care so shoddy the patient would probably be better off just suffering at home. Like the older lady who was trying to recover from surgery but couldn't sleep because other people on the ward had the TV on loud - needless to say other patients had the automatic right to have the TV on throughout the night, and getting some sleep to recover apparently wasn't a right. Then when she used earplugs in a desperate attempt to get some respite from the noise the doctor thought she was deaf. Then there was the bathroom that was cleaned every day and yet a bar of soap didn't move for a fortnight (it seemed the cleaners wiped around it). At one hospital they used giant rocks to stop people from parking, roadside parking was prohibited for a mile or so in all directions from the hospital, but if you missed an appointment because you couldn't park (and of course if you were well enough to walk the last mile to hospital you most likely wouldn't need to be at the hospital at all) you got a nasty letter with dire warnings about the cost of missed appointments. One family member called to cancel a routine appointment a week or so ahead of time because they couldn't make it, only to then receive a nasty letter criticising them for not attending the appointment they cancelled.

I'm essentially in favour of centrally funded treatment for things that are life threatening but from what I've personally seen in the UK the problems with things being centrally funded is that some regard the service as priceless but sadly all too many regard it as worthless. One night I took my wife to hospital with a suspected broken foot. After waiting for nearly two hours she was asked to go to a room where the doctor could see her. This involved walking to the far end of the hospital, yet no assistance was offered to her. In the end I all but carried her there. As it turned out she hadn't broken her foot but did need a crutch to take the weight off her foot, so they loaned us one with the request to return it when we were done with it. They didn't take any details, no financial deposit, just handed it over. A couple of weeks later she didn't need it any more, so I took it back to the hospital and from the expressions on the staff's faces it was as if I'd taken them a gold bar. I shudder to think how much public money is lost due to people not bothering to return the items once they didn't need them any more.

 

[tango]

Good and informative video on healthcare costs showing that cost increases since ACA are at 5% or so and before ACA 8% or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3mYrOnq2Z4

The trouble with things like this is that, whatever this video or that video might claim, people look at the amount of money they are personally paying because that's what matters to them.

As a baseline, from the web site obamacarefacts.com it appears that the ACA was upheld by the Supreme Court on June 28, 2012. At the time I was looking into the cost of health insurance in the US, and at the time the kind of policy that offered coverage against catastrophic events (with a $5000 deductible) was going to cost in the region of $300-350/month for my wife and I (I forget the exact figure but it was something in the lower 300s). Roll on to 2016 and a comparable policy costs more like $620/month. That's an increase of circa 100% in three years, a far cry from the 5% annually claimed by your text.

Of course it's hard to tell what an "average" person might face but, as I said before, it's irrelevant because what I care about is the bill that I face. If you can show me that Someone Else gets it for half the price but for some reason I can't get it at that price, it's of little interest to me.

In fairness it's also hard to know to what extent prices rose because insurance companies had an excuse to raise them and blame the ACA for it. But suffice to say that "insurance", by definition, is there to cover insurable events, i.e. things that you don't expect to happen. I insure my car in case I crash it or it gets stolen. I insure my house in case I get burgled or it burns down. Health "insurance" that covers routine and predictable events becomes more like an easy payment plan than a form of insurance - it would be akin to taking out a car insurance policy and then expecting my policy to pay out every time I needed an oil change or new tires, or expecting my homeowners insurance to cover the cost of redecorating, and then wondering why the price went so high.

 

[MoreCoffee]

When last I worked in the USA - 2001 AD - the company I worked for paid around 330 USD per month for my health care and that was for one man in good health living in California (the bay area). My experience with USA health care was not very positive. While I was working in the USA I had a kidney stone. While in serious pain I called for an appointment with the plan's preferred General Practitioner in my locale and was told - even after describing the pain and the likely cause being a kidney stone - that I would have to wait until Tuesday (that was 4 days away). No amount of stress on the intensity of the pain and the urgency worked. I passed the stone about 15 hours later. When I attended the GP appointment all they could do is ask for and receive a urine sample and after analysis say "there's some blood in your urine" to which I replied that I was not surprised after passing a kidney stone. They gave me a prescription for antibiotics and that was that. I am glad I had no serious health issues in the USA. Their system is expensive and inefficient.

 

[tango]

When last I worked in the USA - 2001 AD - the company I worked for paid around 330 USD per month for my health care and that was for one man in good health living in California (the bay area). My experience with USA health care was not very positive. While I was working in the USA I had a kidney stone. While in serious pain I called for an appointment with the plan's preferred General Practitioner in my locale and was told - even after describing the pain and the likely cause being a kidney stone - that I would have to wait until Tuesday (that was 4 days away). No amount of stress on the intensity of the pain and the urgency worked. I passed the stone about 15 hours later. When I attended the GP appointment all they could do is ask for and receive a urine sample and after analysis say "there's some blood in your urine" to which I replied that I was not surprised after passing a kidney stone. They gave me a prescription for antibiotics and that was that. I am glad I had no serious health issues in the USA. Their system is expensive and inefficient.

I guess it varies from place to place, just like anywhere else.

When we were visiting the US my wife needed to see a doctor, got an appointment later the same day and the total cost for the doctor's visit and the drugs he prescribed was low enough that we didn't even bother to claim it on our travel insurance - the total cost was barely more than the deductible. A few years I took her to the ER as a matter of precaution after an encounter with a dog got a little out of hand and she was seen within about 20 minutes. The bills racked up remarkably fast, although in that case it wasn't so much of an issue as the dog's owner was paying. Had it been an unknown dog I would have claimed that one on our travel insurance.


I think these cases perfectly illustrate the point I'm making about healthcare costs. Your experience of US healthcare is very negative, mine is generally positive (in my experience the main negative is the cost), so surveys that talk about averages and the experience of others is of limited interest.

In the UK I've known a few people who have had major issues (including death) as a result of infections acquired in hospital. A friend's mother went into hospital in a not-very-good state and came out in a box, and it was only fairly recently I discovered she died of an infection she contracted while in the hospital.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I guess it varies from place to place, just like anywhere else.

When we were visiting the US my wife needed to see a doctor, got an appointment later the same day and the total cost for the doctor's visit and the drugs he prescribed was low enough that we didn't even bother to claim it on our travel insurance - the total cost was barely more than the deductible. A few years I took her to the ER as a matter of precaution after an encounter with a dog got a little out of hand and she was seen within about 20 minutes. The bills racked up remarkably fast, although in that case it wasn't so much of an issue as the dog's owner was paying. Had it been an unknown dog I would have claimed that one on our travel insurance.


I think these cases perfectly illustrate the point I'm making about healthcare costs. Your experience of US healthcare is very negative, mine is generally positive (in my experience the main negative is the cost), so surveys that talk about averages and the experience of others is of limited interest.

In the UK I've known a few people who have had major issues (including death) as a result of infections acquired in hospital. A friend's mother went into hospital in a not-very-good state and came out in a box, and it was only fairly recently I discovered she died of an infection she contracted while in the hospital.

I saw on a video that approximately 250,000 people die in USA hospitals from preventable errors in treatment, hygiene, and other easily corrected blunders. Australia has a lower figure (per capita) but errors happen in every hospital system and some hospitals perform better than others. Australia has had several enquiries into procedures and the like to help reduce the unnecessary deaths but I imagine they still happen albeit at a slightly lower frequency.

http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139

 

[tango]

I saw on a video that approximately 250,000 people die in USA hospitals from preventable errors in treatment, hygiene, and other easily corrected blunders. Australia has a lower figure (per capita) but errors happen in every hospital system and some hospitals perform better than others. Australia has had several enquiries into procedures and the like to help reduce the unnecessary deaths but I imagine they still happen albeit at a slightly lower frequency.

Of course a large part of the problem is that people are human. Then you've got the factor that centralised management, by its very nature, can do little more than look at statistics and averages while each individual going through the system, by their very nature, can only see very local data.

It's much like the issue with the safety or otherwise of vaccinations. It's pointless to claim that anything is 100% safe and is absolutely guaranteed to have no side effects, ever. Yet at the same time if something does cause severe problems for 1 person in 1,000,000 and you happen to be that one person then as far as you are concerned (and quite reasonably so) the vaccine ruined your life. That doesn't mean the vaccine is unsafe, just that it has extreme side effects in a very small percentage of the population.

I suspect a lot of the partisan political bickering relates to the political leanings of the people sharing their observations, paired with the fact that it's often hard to verify individual observations (especially when lawyers get involved and "no comment" is the standard response). Put in simple terms, as far as US politics goes I'd describe myself as a moderate Republican (I'd describe myself as more libertarian but given the choice of the two main parties I'd lean right). So it stands to reason that my leaning is, generally speaking, anti-Obama. So my observation that things have gotten worse since Obamacare was enacted could be accepted as a data point among other data points, or it could be written off as little more than a political opponent exaggerating a problem to discredit a system. In other words, Republican opposes Democrat president, nothing to see here, move along. Likewise the person who leans towards the Democrats to whatever degree who reports good things as a result of Obamacare could easily be written off as little more than a fanboy, even if in their specific situation their lot genuinely was improved by the legislation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think that the USA could do far better.

 

[psalms 91]

Yet people come from Canada to the US for treatment in some cases, if so bad wonder why. Oh wait, it is because of the long waits for certain things

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yet people come from Canada to the US for treatment in some cases, if so bad wonder why. Oh wait, it is because of the long waits for certain things

Some people come to the USA because there are highly paid surgeons who work in USA in hospitals that have expensive equipment that few in the USA can access (because of the high costs) and hence people from other nations can. In Australia we get USA people coming to our hospitals for treatments where we are in advance of the USA and we have people from China, Japan, New Zealand, Canada and many other nations who come to receive treatments that are done especially well here.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A news source here in Australia did a fact check on the third candidate's debate. On health care costs Donald Trump stated
“Next week [the healthcare premiums] are going to go up 100%”
The fact check revealed:

Trump and Clinton both accept the reality that healthcare premiums have increased since the Affordable Care Act was enacted, but Trump appears to be exaggerating wildly. On average, premiums have risen by about 5.8% a year since Barack Obama took office, compared with 13.2% in the nine years before Obama, Politifact found earlier this year. Trump, however, is cherry-picking data from various states and providers where rates have had higher jumps. The most common healthcare plans will increase 9% on average, according to an analysis by the Kaiser Family Foundation.​

Click the links for the sources used.

 

[psalms 91]

In other words Trump being the usual liar

 

[Rens]

Here you can choose how much you pay. I pay 90 a month because I'm never sick, but you can also choose to pay extra for extra Insurance, then it's 135 or something, did that when I was pregnant, you can change it every year.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...alth-care-rankings-with-UK-in-14th-place.html

 

[Josiah]

A news source here in Australia did a fact check on the third candidate's debate. On health care costs Donald Trump stated
“Next week [the healthcare premiums] are going to go up 100%”
The fact check revealed:

Trump and Clinton both accept the reality that healthcare premiums have increased since the Affordable Care Act was enacted, but Trump appears to be exaggerating wildly. On average, premiums have risen by about 5.8% a year since Barack Obama took office, compared with 13.2% in the nine years before Obama, Politifact found earlier this year. Trump, however, is cherry-picking data from various states and providers where rates have had higher jumps. The most common healthcare plans will increase 9% on average, according to an analysis by the Kaiser Family Foundation.​

Click the links for the sources used.

Why in the world Australians care what changes are or are not made to heal care in the UNITED STATED OF AMERICA? Do they want to move here? Come here for all their health care? I can't image why they would care. They can't vote in our elections and I suspect most of them do not recieve their health care in the USA (it would be a long trip to get your teeth cleaned).

Yes. Every promise made by Obama about this have been lies. I think everyone recognizes that. It's not working. I think everyone recognizes that. Of course, all this really wasn't Obamas' idea - it was Hillary's idea back in the first term of her husband's administration but she's hiding from that. Surely, it needs to be replaced. But again, I can't for the life of me image why this is the business of Australians. Maybe Canadians since a l0t of them come south for health care but I sincerely doubt a lot of Australians do that.



- Josiah



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