Saint Paul on worship.

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 12:1-2 [1] I urge you, then, brothers, remembering the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God; that is the kind of worship for you, as sensible people. [2] Do not model your behaviour on the contemporary world, but let the renewing of your minds transform you, so that you may discern for yourselves what is the will of God -- what is good and acceptable and mature.

Worship is, among other things, religious work.

 

[Josiah]

Worship is... among other things.... all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Worship is... among other things.... all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him.

Nope.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Worship is for remembrance of what is right in the sight of GOD, and for thanks to GOD.



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[Lamb]

Worship is... among other things.... all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him.

This is true. The verse is showing us the connection of what Jesus says the two most important commandments are about loving God and neighbor. We worship God...but this verse also tells us that by living by God's Holy Law we are showing worship, but doing what is right in helping our neighbor, we are showing love to God and worship Him. Scripture is all connected and this verse in Romans helps to pull it together.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is true. The verse is showing us the connection of what Jesus says the two most important commandments are about loving God and neighbor. We worship God...but this verse also tells us that by living by God's Holy Law we are showing worship, but doing what is right in helping our neighbor, we are showing love to God and worship Him. Scripture is all connected and this verse in Romans helps to pull it together.

Saint Paul says I urge you, then, brothers, remembering the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God; that is the kind of worship for you, as sensible people. He does not say "ll we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him" is worship.

 

[Josiah]

Saint Paul says I urge you, then, brothers, remembering the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God; that is the kind of worship for you, as sensible people. He does not say "ll we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him" is worship.

Paul is mentioning ONE aspect of worship - of RESPONDING to God's mercy, God's gift of salvation: our life. But I disagree with you that that's ALL "worship" means - our life, this it is wrong for your denomination to refer to the Mass as "worship". I disagree with your condemnation of your own denomination; I instead agree with your denomination on this - worship is MORE than our life in response to God's mercy, favor and gifts ... it includes our words, our heart, our thoughts, our attitude, more than JUST our morality and love.

I thus disagree with you and your condemnation of your own denomination here.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

Stick to your own denomination. It's the one you know.

 

[Josiah]

Worship is... among other things.... all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him.


.

Saint Paul says I urge you, then, brothers, remembering the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God


.

Paul is mentioning ONE aspect of worship - of RESPONDING to God's mercy, God's gift of salvation: our life. But I disagree with you that that's ALL "worship" means - our life, this it is wrong for your denomination to refer to the Mass as "worship". I disagree with your condemnation of your own denomination; I instead agree with your denomination on this - worship is MORE than our life in response to God's mercy, favor and gifts ... it includes our words, our heart, our thoughts, our attitude, more than JUST our morality and love.



.

Stick to your own denomination. It's the one you know.

So, your position that the RC Denomination does NOT regard the Mass as "worship?" That's news to me..... it did when I was a Catholic.

Now, READ what I posted and others did to you. You referenced a verse that identifies "worship" as a RESPONSE to God's mercy.... and then mentions our life. It does NOT contradict your own denomination in ALSO noting that what we say/profess/proclaim can also be worship. And the verse you references underlines MY point: it's a response to GOD - His mercy, favor, gifts.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

The Worshiping Assembly at Mass

The celebration of Mass is a corporate act, an act of the whole assembly gathered for worship. All the particular ministries serve this corporate function (GIRM, no. 27). In the Mass, the Church is joined to the action of Christ, the high point both of the action by which God sanctifies the world in Christ and of the worship that the human race offers to the Father, adoring him through Christ, the Son of God, in the Holy Spirit (no. 16). We are joined to this divine action through baptism, which incorporates us into the risen Christ. This action, which lies at the center of the whole Christian life (no. 16) is not initiated by us but by God acting in and through the Church as the body of the risen Christ. It becomes our action only to the extent that we give ourselves to this mystery of redemptive worship. The liturgy is designed to bring about in all those who make up the worshiping assembly a participation of the faithful both in body and mind, a participation burning with faithful, hope, and charity (no. 18). To the extent that we are able to participate in this way, the work of redemption becomes personally effective for each of us. By such participation, the General Instruction says, we make the actions and prayers of the liturgy our own; we enter more fully into our personal communion with Christ's redeeming act and perfect worship (see no. 54, 55, etc.). In the celebration of Mass the faithful are a holy people, a chosen people, a royal priesthood: they give thanks to God and offer the Victim not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him and learn to offer themselves. They should endeavor to make this clear by their deep sense of reverence for God and their charity toward brothers and sisters who share with them in the celebration (no. 95). They should become one body, whether by hearing the word of God, or joining in prayers and liturgical song, or above all by offering the sacrifice together and sharing together in the Lord's table (no. 96). Because the whole liturgy is a corporate act of the gathered assembly (GIRM no. 34; Catechism of the Catholic Church no. 1144), there are certain parts of the Mass that are to be done by the whole assembly, the congregation of the faithful and all the ministers, in order to express the corporate nature of this act. Through these actions, the entire congregation of the faithful joins itself to Christ in acknowledging the great things that God has done and in offering the sacrifice (no. 78). These acts include:

• Listening with reverence to the readings of God's word (GIRM no. 29);
• Engaging in the dialogue of prayer through acclamations, greetings, and responses to spoken and sung prayers (no. 34-37) in a tone suitable to the text (no. 38);
• Joining in an action through common postures and gestures (no. 42);
• Participating in communal silence (no. 45);
• Because of their baptismal dignity, letting themselves be included in the offering symbolized by incensation (no. 75);
• Participating in the greeting of peace as a sign of ecclesial communion and love for each other (no. 82);
• Participating in specific spoken prayers and other texts, namely:
• the formula of general confession during the penitential rite (no. 51);
• the profession of faith (no. 67-68);
• the general intercessions (no. 69);
• the Lord's Prayer (no. 81);
• the prayer of humility before sacramental communion (no. 84);
• Participating in the offering during the Eucharistic Prayer, which is spoken or chanted by the priest, but in which all should join as the Church to offer the "spotless Victim to the Father in the Holy Spirit" and "offer themselves and so day by day to surrender themselves, through Christ the Mediator, to an ever more complete union with God and with each other, so that at last God may be all in all" (no. 79f);
• Participating in liturgical song, because singing is a way of expressing both the corporate nature of the act of worship and the intense union to be achieved between God and the Church in Christ through the Holy Spirit. It is a union so intense and total that it is described as a union between lovers whose nature is best expressed vocally in song (no. 39). Singing is also an act which unifies and focuses the individual (no. 39), thus encouraging that "participation in body and spirit that is conscious, active, full, and motivated by faith, hope, and charity" (no. 18). These songs and acclamations are normally to be sung, in whole or in part, by all the participants:
• opening liturgical song (no. 48);
• Kyrie (no. 52);
• Gloria (no. 53);
• Responsorial psalm (no. 61);
• Gospel acclamation (no. 62);
• Song at the preparation of gifts (no. 74);
• Sanctus, memorial acclamation, and Amen (no. 79, 151);
• The Lord's Prayer (no. 81);
• Lamb of God (no. 83);
• the optional psalm, canticle of praise, or hymn after communion (no. 88).
• For those who are properly disposed (no. 80), full, active, and conscious participation is expressed in partaking in the Holy Communion of the Lord, receiving in the one bread consecrated at this Mass the Lord's body and blood, in the same way that the apostles received them from Christ's own hands (no. 72.3).

(source)

GIRM=General Instruction of the Roman Missal (see here)

 

[Josiah]

Worship is... among other things.... all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him.


.

Saint Paul says I urge you, then, brothers, remembering the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God


.

Paul is mentioning ONE aspect of worship - of RESPONDING to God's mercy, God's gift of salvation: our life. But I disagree with you that that's ALL "worship" means - our life, this it is wrong for your denomination to refer to the Mass as "worship". I disagree with your condemnation of your own denomination; I instead agree with your denomination on this - worship is MORE than our life in response to God's mercy, favor and gifts ... it includes our words, our heart, our thoughts, our attitude, more than JUST our morality and love.



.

Stick to your own denomination.


.

So, your position that the RC Denomination does NOT regard the Mass as "worship?" That's news to me..... it did when I was a Catholic.

Now, READ what I posted and others did to you. You referenced a verse that identifies "worship" as a RESPONSE to God's mercy.... and then mentions our life. It does NOT contradict your own denomination in ALSO noting that what we say/profess/proclaim can also be worship. And the verse you references underlines MY point: it's a response to GOD - His mercy, favor, gifts.


.

MoreCoffee,

Thanks for proving yourself wrong and confirming my point.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION], I started this thread intending to have a discussion about what saint Paul says about worship. You are hijacking it with posts expressing your dislike for Catholicism. Please stick to the thread's topic or stop posting.

 

[Lamb]

Saint Paul says I urge you, then, brothers, remembering the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God; that is the kind of worship for you, as sensible people. He does not say "ll we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him" is worship.

Is there miscommunication of what I wrote because I think you have misinterpreted my statements?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is there miscommunication of what I wrote because I think you have misinterpreted my statements?

I am thinking that saying "all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him" is worship merely obscures the idea expressed by saint Paul when he wrote I urge you, then, brothers, remembering the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God; that is the kind of worship for you, as sensible people. It obscures it by widening the concepts discussed by saint Paul until virtually anything and everything becomes "worship" if it is done by a Christian as a Christian. Sleep, eating, daydreaming, walking, talking, everything is being equated to worship and that is not what saint Paul is teaching.

 

[Lamb]

I think you read beyond what I wrote to be honest with you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think you read beyond what I wrote to be honest with you.

you quoted [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION], My reply is to his stated view

 

[Josiah]

I am thinking that saying "all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him" is worship merely obscures the idea expressed by saint Paul when he wrote I urge you, then, brothers, remembering the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God; that is the kind of worship for you, as sensible people.

It obscures it by widening the concepts discussed by saint Paul until virtually anything and everything becomes "worship" if it is done by a Christian as a Christian. Sleep, eating, daydreaming, walking, talking, everything is being equated to worship and that is not what saint Paul is teaching.

Wrong.

Paul writes that worship is something BROTHERS do (fellow Christians - the justified, the saved, believers) and that it is in RESPONSE to ("remembrance") the MERCY of God. That's what I stated that you renounced with a single word (one of your rare short posts): "Nope."

Paul focused on our lifestyle - and I agree that is a PART of worship and I agree that's the only part this singular, individual, exclusive, isolated verse mentions - I just disagreed with you that it's the ONLY aspect of worship. You've been disagreeing with me (and all others) ever since about that.

Now.... rather than substantiating your "nope" - you are imposing upon us silly things NO ONE remotely said. No post here to you says, "sleeping is worship." My post did NOT say "everything" is worship, it said all that is IN RESPONSE TO God's mercy, love, favor and gifts. Sleeping is usually in response to biological factors as I'm sure you know. Few people intentionally daydream AS THEIR RESPONSE TO God's mercy, love, favor and gifts - and of course NO ONE HERE REMOTELY posted that. You know that. We all know that. You made it up. In lieu of supporting your rejection of our pov in this thread.


- Josiah

 

[Rens]

It should be.

And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where do the holy scriptures ever teach that " all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him" is worship?

God is specific about how he will be worshipped. One cannot just appear and say "I am worshipping God" while one is engaging in, say, liturgical dance.

 

[Rens]

Where do the holy scriptures ever teach that " all we think, say and do in RESPONSE to God as a child of God, saved by Him" is worship?

God is specific about how he will be worshipped. One cannot just appear and say "I am worshipping God" while one is engaging in, say, liturgical dance.

It teaches that it should be, depending on what translation you use, in Romans 12:1. NKJV says service, NIV says worship. I would see dance as worship anyway. Good thread! I always have the idea worship is just what you do in a worship service and that praise isn't even worship.