Is anybody always right?

MoreCoffee

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Some people say that nobody is always right - Christ excepted of course - so individuals ought to make up their own minds about what the holy scriptures really teach. But if nobody is always right why would self-reliance work? And if one relies on the Holy Spirit to guide one into all truth then how does one account for differences that arise between individuals who think this way?
 

Rens

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Yes I'm always right.

2016-10-01-13-08-45--1975607399.jpeg
 

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If someone is always right just take it with a grain of salt and laugh it off. I always think they're autistic or something or completely brainwashed by a one true denomination.
 

Lamb

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There is a meme going around where there is a number on the ground. On one side you see the person saying it's a 6 and on the other you see the person saying it's a 9. Sometimes right and wrong is how you're looking at something. But not always.

I wish I were always right about things but I know I'm not. It's a way to stay humbled.
 

psalms 91

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Noone is always right as much as we would like to think so
 

tango

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I'm always right. I'm never wrong. Well, I thought I was once but it turned out I was mistaken.
 

MoreCoffee

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I see, can somebody comment on if nobody is always right why would self-reliance work? And if one relies on the Holy Spirit to guide one into all truth then how does one account for differences that arise between individuals who think this way?
 

psalms 91

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The Holy Spirit does not err so it is the person who errs, either in hearing their own thoughts rather than the spirit. Part of hearing Him lies in being ablew to empty yourself out and have no thoughts or preconceived notions about scripture, a very hard state to achieve without much practice doing it
 

MoreCoffee

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The Holy Spirit does not err so it is the person who errs, either in hearing their own thoughts rather than the spirit. Part of hearing Him lies in being ablew to empty yourself out and have no thoughts or preconceived notions about scripture, a very hard state to achieve without much practice doing it

I see, does what you wrote mean that an individual who thinks he/she is led by the Spirit yet makes mistakes is more reliable than a body of people who think that they (as a group) are led by the Spirit yet make mistakes? The holy scriptures contain these words (addressed to a group of disciples) "But when the Spirit of truth has arrived, he will teach the whole truth to you [you is plural here]. For he will not be speaking from himself. Instead, whatever he will hear, he will speak. And he will announce to you [you is plural here too] the things that are to come." [John 16:13]
 

psalms 91

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Look I know that you are devoted to church as an institution and as salvation but believe me when I say that salvation is individual, you cna sit in church all your life and never be saved, unless it is personal and individual it is not salvation. Yes, many thousands cna be saved all at once but it is still an individual decision for each of them. I bwelieve in the importance of church and gatjering together as I belong to two of them but I do not see it as my salvation or as taking the place of stidy and reading on mypart otherwise I am just accepting what man says as truth and if I do that without checking it out for myself then it is at my own peril
 

MoreCoffee

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Look I know that you are devoted to church as an institution and as salvation but believe me when I say that salvation is individual

I do not believe your claim. The holy scriptures do not teach it. Salvation is by grace and the grace of God extends to the body of Christ. Union with Christ is absolutely essential thus individuals not associated with Christ in his body either do not exist or are not Christians because Christians are by definition in the body of Christ which is a community of people united to Christ and to one another in faith.

, you cna sit in church

I have no idea how sitting in church is even possible unless you equate church with a building that contains seating but that is not what the church is. The church is the body of Christ. It is people united to Christ (and to one another) in faith.

all your life and never be saved, unless it is personal and individual it is not salvation. Yes, many thousands cna be saved all at once but it is still an individual decision for each of them. I bwelieve in the importance of church and gatjering together as I belong to two of them but I do not see it as my salvation or as taking the place of stidy and reading on mypart otherwise I am just accepting what man says as truth and if I do that without checking it out for myself then it is at my own peril
 

Josiah

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Some people say that nobody is always right - Christ excepted of course - so individuals ought to make up their own minds about what the holy scriptures really teach. But if nobody is always right why would self-reliance work? And if one relies on the Holy Spirit to guide one into all truth then how does one account for differences that arise between individuals who think this way?


I reject your extreme, very modern individualism and egoism.... and the implied exemption of oneself from accountability.

I reject your call to self-reliance and believe instead on Christ-reliance. I reject your claim that the Holy Spirit only leads SELF (if self so claims for self alone) and that SELF is the sole one who infallibly, always follows.

IMO, you have swallowed whole the RCC mindset and it is not biblical (or reasonable). You perhaps are confusing egoism, power-mongering and insecurity with self alone being always right.



My half cent.



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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I reject your extreme, very modern individualism and egoism.... and the implied exemption of oneself from accountability.

I reject your call to self-reliance and believe instead on Christ-reliance. I reject your claim that the Holy Spirit only leads SELF (if self so claims for self alone) and that SELF is the sole one who infallibly, always follows.

IMO, you have swallowed whole the RCC mindset and it is not biblical (or reasonable). You perhaps are confusing egoism, power-mongering and insecurity with self alone being always right.



My half cent.
- Josiah

I wonder if you may have misread my post. it does not advocate individualism in matters of biblical interpretation and guidance from the Holy Spirit.
 

Josiah

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I wonder if you may have misread my post. it does not advocate individualism in matters of biblical interpretation and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I think it does, IMO you are just echoing/parroting the modern mindset of the individual RC Denomination. And I reject the very extreme individualism and egoism and exclusion of self by self from accountability that you echo and suggest; I reject your call to SELF-reliance and your suggestion that the Holy Spirit only leads SELF if self insists upon such for self exclusively (as the individual RC Denomination does for itself exclusively). I think you have swallowed whole the entire mindset of your individual denomination and are confusing the extreme egoism, individualism, power-grabbing and insecurity of your denomination with whether self is always right.



- Josiah
 

tango

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Some people say that nobody is always right - Christ excepted of course - so individuals ought to make up their own minds about what the holy scriptures really teach. But if nobody is always right why would self-reliance work? And if one relies on the Holy Spirit to guide one into all truth then how does one account for differences that arise between individuals who think this way?

A more serious reply than my previous one (now I'm on a proper keyboard rather than a touchscreen).

I think your opening premise is flawed, and so from there the rest falls apart rapidly. The idea that nobody is perfect and therefore we should make up our own minds represents both a balance and a warning. A balance in the sense that we should read and understand for ourselves rather than merely parroting last Sunday's sermon or the latest "must-read Christian book" or whatever. The warning in the sense that we too are imperfect so we should continue to "test all things, hold fast what is true", which is where meeting for Christian fellowship is important.

In regard to the latter I fear that to a large extent the churches of today are little more than talking shops. The format is much the same more or less anywhere - sit in seats in rows facing the front, listen to the notices, the leader says a few prayers, then someone delivers a sermon, all interspersed with singing a few songs, then go out back for coffee and talk about the events of the week. Anything relating to a more personal struggle, trying to thrash out just what a particular Bible passage means, is shunted to a smaller meeting. In fairness, not much would get done on a Sunday if it were little more than an open mic session where anyone could expound on their thoughts regarding any particular verse but the tendency for Sunday morning services to become rather impersonal is perhaps a warning that we should be aware of how easy it might be for people with needs to slip through the cracks and become somewhat anonymous within the congregation.

Relying on the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth may result in differences in a number of ways.

First of all, as psalms91 mentioned, it's very easy to filter the leading of the Holy Spirit through the lenses of what I want to do with my life. And what I naturally want for myself is a bit of security, a bit of comfort, maybe a bit of cash behind me to tide me over any unexpected bumps in the financial path, and so on. The chances are, left to my own devices, I'm not going to choose a path that's rocky, that provides no comfort and no security and in which I'm living more or less hand to mouth with donations coming in moments before they are needed. So on that basis if the Holy Spirit is leading me towards a lifestyle like that, just as I got used to driving my nice new car and wearing the fancy new watch I just bought, my nature is going to be to resist it. Much more comfortable, much better (in an earthly sense) to stick with the comfort and console myself that people like Joseph of Arimathea were wealthy, so maybe I just misheard what the Spirit wants for me.

Secondly, some people are still prone to put certain leaders on a pedestal and figure that the Holy Spirit speaks through them and therefore they are above reproach. Some of the so-called prophets within the New Apostolic Reformation are bad where this is concerned because they fiddle with Scripture, misapply Scripture, and then act as if the matter is settled and the word being presented is true. Some time back on The Elijah List a "prophetic word" was presented along with reasoning that was little more than the "prophet" said it was true, the web site owner said it was true, "by the mouths of two or three shall the matter be established" (Deu 19:15) and therefore this was a word that you could "take to the bank". Sadly the reasoning collapses as soon as two people agree that the "prophecy" was garbage, because using Scriptural reasoning in the style of The Elijah List it was possible to prove that the "prophecy" was simultaneously truth and trash.

Thirdly, it seems ever-more popular to insist on a single objective truth. In most cases this is appropriate but as soon as our personal walk with Christ is concerned it isn't necessarily so. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is an eternal commandment that applies equally to all of us but "Go to Bangalore and preach to the street children there" might be a calling given to one of us but not another. If my calling is to minister to the street children of Bangalore then doing anything else is sinful but your calling may not be to go to Bangalore and therefore for you to stay firmly where you are may not be sinful. So a discussion over whether or not it's a sin to not go to Bangalore is meaningless because the answer is yes for some and no for others (here "go into the world and preach the gospel" is fairly open-ended, as "the world" could mean Bangalore, Bangkok or Boston). The same would apply to anyone who had a specific calling to a particular form of ministry - if God is calling me to be a minister in my home town but I decide that I need to "go into the world" so fly off to some exotic location to preach I'm failing to answer God's call just as much as the person who was called to Bangalore but decided to stay in the air conditioned comfort of his regular church.
 

MoreCoffee

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[MENTION=62]tango[/MENTION] - everybody does make up their own mind about what they will believe/accept. That is not in dispute. But I think it is bad to advocate the idea that everybody ought to interpret the holy scriptures for themselves and decide what it means for themselves without taking into account what the community of faith says about its meaning and application. I say it is bad because the holy scriptures have several attributes that make self-reliance of that kind untenable. Specifically, the holy scriptures:
  • are too large for one person to grasp sufficiently for consistent accurate interpretation
  • contain too many literary genres for one person to grasp without help from others
  • are written in too many languages for one person to know without help from others
  • are too intricately interrelated for one person to grasp - even with the help of others
And even with the help of others the holy scriptures still need a community interpretation because they were written by a community for the purpose of living together as a community of faith serving God. The church (the body of Christ) is needed for proper well-rounded accurate understanding of the teaching of Christ contained in the holy scriptures. Even though no individual is always right the faithful can as a community make good and beneficial use of the holy scriptures because as a community they can correct the mistakes that individuals make. That is partly why we were given the church (body of Christ) by God.
 

tango

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[MENTION=62]tango[/MENTION] - everybody does make up their own mind about what they will believe/accept. That is not in dispute. But I think it is bad to advocate the idea that everybody ought to interpret the holy scriptures for themselves and decide what it means for themselves without taking into account what the community of faith says about its meaning and application. I say it is bad because the holy scriptures have several attributes that make self-reliance of that kind untenable. Specifically, the holy scriptures:
  • are too large for one person to grasp sufficiently for consistent accurate interpretation
  • contain too many literary genres for one person to grasp without help from others
  • are written in too many languages for one person to know without help from others
  • are too intricately interrelated for one person to grasp - even with the help of others
And even with the help of others the holy scriptures still need a community interpretation because they were written by a community for the purpose of living together as a community of faith serving God. The church (the body of Christ) is needed for proper well-rounded accurate understanding of the teaching of Christ contained in the holy scriptures. Even though no individual is always right the faithful can as a community make good and beneficial use of the holy scriptures because as a community they can correct the mistakes that individuals make. That is partly why we were given the church (body of Christ) by God.

Sure, that's why I mentioned the balance and the warning and the importance of Christian fellowship of the type that gives people space to discuss this sort of thing.
 

MoreCoffee

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Sure, that's why I mentioned the balance and the warning and the importance of Christian fellowship of the type that gives people space to discuss this sort of thing.

What motivated my concern is that I meet people often who say they read their bibles at home and do not think any church is teaching "the whole counsel of God". With that they then justify not attending any church and explain that they are not religious but spiritual and christian.
 

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What motivated my concern is that I meet people often who say they read their bibles at home and do not think any church is teaching "the whole counsel of God". With that they then justify not attending any church and explain that they are not religious but spiritual and christian.

Yes that's dangerous. A finger alone without a body can die off.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.


Also I've seen dangerous sects with only one man who lead it who had this special revelation God only told him personally.
 
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