The scape goat - somebody to blame.

Lamb

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He himself bore our sins in his body upon the tree.

It's stated right there that our sins were there at the cross and Jesus bore them. It's "our" sins explicitly stated. Josiah is correct in saying Jesus took our sins to the cross because that verse is saying exactly that. Our sins were there with Jesus.
 

MoreCoffee

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He himself bore our sins in his body upon the tree.

The words "bore our sins" appear to be a quote from or an allusion to the passage from Isaiah that I mentioned in my previous post, Isaiah 53:4-12.

It's stated right there that our sins were there at the cross and Jesus bore them. It's "our" sins explicitly stated. Josiah is correct in saying Jesus took our sins to the cross because that verse is saying exactly that. Our sins were there with Jesus.
 

Lamb

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The words "bore our sins" appear to be a quote from or an allusion to the passage from Isaiah that I mentioned in my previous post, Isaiah 53:4-12.

I don't see an exact quote in Isaiah and I don't see how Isaiah and 1 Peter conflict but together show how our sins were at the cross with Jesus and were fully atoned so those who trust in Him will not see punishment but have eternal life. 1 Peter says "bore our sins".

Hebrews 9:28 helps build up the picture of the Gospel.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. KJV
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. NIV
 

Josiah

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He himself bore our sins in his body upon the tree.

It's stated right there that our sins were there at the cross and Jesus bore them. It's "our" sins explicitly stated. Josiah is correct in saying Jesus took our sins to the cross because that verse is saying exactly that. Our sins were there with Jesus.


I think I'm right, too. Wink.


This thread is NOT about "Atonement Theories" (I'd be glad to discuss them - but only where permitted). In general, in brief, I think most of them have some solid, biblical, Christian truth to them but that no one grasps it all. Luther and Calvin were fond of the "Christus Victor" view but didn't embrace it alone and denied none of them.

I agree with Lamm's words here (and in LOTS of places, lol)



Pax Soli Christi



- Josiah



.
 

MoreCoffee

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I don't see an exact quote in Isaiah and I don't see how Isaiah and 1 Peter conflict but together show how our sins were at the cross with Jesus and were fully atoned so those who trust in Him will not see punishment but have eternal life. 1 Peter says "bore our sins".

Hebrews 9:28 helps build up the picture of the Gospel.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. KJV
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. NIV

"Bore our sins" is not "took my sins" - to bear is in the passive voice while to take is in the active voice (hence not the same thing).

The scapegoat bears away the sins of the people having had the sins placed upon it. This imagery more closely reflects the wording used by saint Peter in 1Peter 2:24 than the statement made by [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] (specifically, "He FREELY TOOK all my sins upon Himself"). The scapegoat's role is to bear away the sins of Israel as described in Leviticus
Leviticus 16:5-10 [5] 'From the community of Israelites he will receive two he-goats for a sacrifice for sin and a ram for a burnt offering. [6] After offering the bull as a sacrifice for his own sin and performing the rite of expiation for himself and his family, [7] he will take the two he-goats and place them before Yahweh at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. [8] Aaron will then draw lots over the two goats, one lot to be for Yahweh and the other lot for Azazel. [9] Aaron will then take the goat on which the lot "For Yahweh" has fallen, and offer it as a sacrifice for sin. [10] But the goat on which the lot "For Azazel" has fallen, will be placed alive before Yahweh, for the rite of expiation to be performed with it, and for it then to be sent to Azazel in the desert.

The rite of expiation to be performed with the scapegoat is described in the following passage:

Leviticus 16:20-22 [20] 'Once expiation for the sanctuary, the Tent of Meeting and the altar is complete, he will bring the goat which is still alive. [21] Aaron will then lay both his hands on its head and over it confess all the guilt of the Israelites, all their acts of rebellion and all their sins. Having thus laid them on the goat's head, he will send it out into the desert under the charge of a man waiting ready, [22] and the goat will bear all their guilt away into some desolate place. ...​
The scapegoat bears away the guilt of the Israelites. Maybe this has some connection with saint Peter's words about "bearing our sins" but it seems that it is the Bull (a sacrifice for the sins of the high priest and his family) and the goat set aside for a holocaust (a sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel) more closely resembles the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. However in the passage quoted above no mention is made of anything that "FREELY TOOK all my sins". Saint Peter writes of bearing our sins not of taking our sins. Thus there appears to be neither a link in 1Peter 2:24 to the scapegoat nor a link to taking away our sins nor is there a link to actively taking away our sins in Leviticus 16. In Leviticus 16 there is mention of the scapegoat passively bearing the sins placed upon it. The closest one comes to the wording "He FREELY TOOK all my sins upon Himself" is found in the passage Isaiah 53:4-12. But you say that 1Peter 2:21-24 is not quoting from Isaiah 53:7,12. And that really leaves no scripture that says that the Lord Jesus Christ TOOK our sins upon himself, doesn't it.

In summary, the holy scriptures speak of bearing our sins on the tree (cross) but not of Christ freely taking all our sins upon himself. And the link between 1Peter 2:24 and Isaiah 53:7,12 points to the punishment & guilt of sins being born by the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross rather than of the Lord taking sins upon himself.

PS: Hebrews 9:28 (in context) does help flesh out the picture, as you said, but it speaks of bearing the sins of many not of taking them. And once again bearing the sins of many very likely is reflecting the theology of Isaiah 53:4-12 in which it is the punishment and guilt of sins that the Saviour is bearing rather that taking sins upon himself. "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." [Isaiah 53:5 NIV]
 
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Lamb

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Ah, I see what you're trying to argue and it's not worth going there since what is trying to be said is that our sins WERE there at the cross and are atoned for.
 

MoreCoffee

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We could return to the topic of the original post :)

In the old testament there is a scape goat. On it's head all the sins of the people are placed and it is driven out of the camp of Israel. It has become a symbol for somebody to blame. If you've watched the Hunger Games films the same principle is at work. Somebody is chosen and forced to fight the battles that the "nation" is too afraid to fight. They are scapegoated. Is there any element of that present in our religion today?
 

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Bearing sins upon the tree (cross) and the other expressions used in the holy scriptures to describe redemption and the cross of Christ's saving work do not necessarily imply a transfer of sins from sinful men & women to the sinless Lord Jesus Christ while the expression "TOOK all my sins upon Himself" does appear to imply a transfer. Saint Peter expresses the idea of bearing our sins this way:
He himself bore our sins in his body upon the tree, so that we, having died to sin, would live for justice. By his wounds, you have been healed. For you were like wandering sheep. But now you have been turned back toward the Pastor and the Bishop of your souls. [1 Peter 2:24-25]​
Bearing our sins appears to mean a transfer of punishment from sinners to the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross. And this would mean that the Lord Jesus Christ did what Isaiah the prophet teaches in this passage:
Truly, he has taken away our weaknesses, and he himself has carried our sorrows. And we thought of him as if he were a leper, or as if he had been struck by God and humiliated. But he himself was wounded because of our iniquities. He was bruised because of our wickedness. The discipline of our peace was upon him. And by his wounds, we are healed. We have all gone astray like sheep; each one has turned aside to his own way. And the Lord has placed all our iniquity[SUP]*[/SUP] upon him. He was offered up, because it was his own will. And he did not open his mouth. He will be led like a sheep to the slaughter. And he will be mute like a lamb before his shearer. For he will not open his mouth. He was lifted up from anguish and judgement. Who will describe his life? For he has been cut off from the land of the living. Because of the wickedness of my people, I have struck him down. And he will be given a place with the impious for his burial, and with the rich for his death, though he has done no iniquity, nor was deceit in his mouth. But it was the will of the Lord to crush him with infirmity. If he lays down his life because of sin, he will see offspring with long lives, and the will of the Lord will be directed by his hand. Because his soul has laboured, he will see and be satisfied. By his knowledge, my just servant will himself justify many, and he himself will carry their iniquities. Therefore, I will allot to him a great number. And he will divide the spoils of the strong. For he has handed over his life to death, and he was reputed among criminals. And he has taken away the sins of many, and he has prayed for the transgressors. [Isaiah 53:4-12]​
But if "TOOK all my sins upon Himself" is intended to mean what is said in the blue underlined text from Isaiah then I am not sure that it is a good expression. The expression "the Lord has placed all our iniquity upon him" could mean a transfer of sins and it could mean a transfer of punishments so I prefer to leave the question open and let the holy scriptures express the variety of ideas it contains about redemption without nailing it down to one very theologically constrained meaning.

Perhaps brother [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] does not intend to teach the penal substitution theory of the atonement and if he doesn't then I am wrong to read it into his expression. Many people who use the expression used by [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] do intend to teach the penal substitution theory of the atonement by it.

* - the word translated as iniquity is in Hebrew āwōn (ָעוֹן) and it means: iniquity, evil, guilt, punishment. The punishment that goes with deliberate acts as a consequence is indicated by the word in (Isaiah 53:11).

Huh? What other theory is there? The old man died with Him.
 

MoreCoffee

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Huh? What other theory is there? The old man died with Him.

There is the biblical notion that the faithful are united to Christ in his sufferings and death thus the faithful died with Christ on the cross and their sins were expiated by their death in Christ. It is not quite the same thing as the "penal substitutionary theory of the atonement".
 

Josiah

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Ah, I see what you're trying to argue and it's not worth going there since what is trying to be said is that our sins WERE there at the cross and are atoned for.

The affirmation of JESUS as THE Savior is a very difficult point for most Catholics in my experience since they tend to believe that SELF is the Savior.... salvation being made POSSIBLE by Jesus (thus Jesus is not at all the Savior in spite of words chanted but rather the possibility-maker for self is actually the one responsible for the salvation of self) and HELPED by a number of things (the exactly SEVEN sacraments owned and doled out by the individual RC Denomination, the currently endorsed list of "saints" as designated by the individual RC Denomination, the "Treasury of merits" controlled and doled out by the individual RC Denomination, and above all by the Queen of the RC Denomination). So, when a Protestant credits JESUS with salvation, some Catholics rebuff.

I do believe that Jesus took our sins upon Himself and died for them. I think the Bible and historic, orthodox Christianity affirms that. I can appreciate why some Catholics would be disturbed by that or how that simply would be entirely "off the radar" of many. It certainly was for me in my Catholic days.



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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The affirmation of JESUS as THE Savior is a very difficult point for most Catholics in my experience since they tend to believe that SELF is the Savior.... salvation being made POSSIBLE by Jesus (thus Jesus is not at all the Savior in spite of words chanted but rather the possibility-maker for self is actually the one responsible for the salvation of self) and HELPED by a number of things (the exactly SEVEN sacraments owned and doled out by the individual RC Denomination, the currently endorsed list of "saints" as designated by the individual RC Denomination, the "Treasury of merits" controlled and doled out by the individual RC Denomination, and above all by the Queen of the RC Denomination). So, when a Protestant credits JESUS with salvation, some Catholics rebuff.

I do believe that Jesus took our sins upon Himself and died for them. I think the Bible and historic, orthodox Christianity affirms that. I can appreciate why some Catholics would be disturbed by that or how that simply would be entirely "off the radar" of many. It certainly was for me in my Catholic days.

- Josiah

Jesus Christ is the saviour. That is affirmed at every mass. It is affirmed in the creeds. It is affirmed in my prayers. I am not my own saviour. I am united to the Lord Jesus Christ by God's grace. Not by something I did or will do. And not because of something I believe. It is simply because of God's mercy. God's grace alone is the cause and the explanation of the salvation of the faithful.
 

MoreCoffee

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[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

Here is the prayer said at the Eucharist in my local parish mass this Sunday. 27th Sunday in Ordinary Time - Year C

It is truly right to give you thanks, truly just to give you glory, Father, most holy, for you are the one God living and true, existing before all ages and abiding for all eternity, dwelling in unapproachable light; yet you, who alone are good, the source of life, have made all that is, so that you might fill your creatures with blessings and bring joy to many of them by the glory of your light. And so, in your presence are countless hosts of Angels, who serve you day and night and, gazing upon the glory of your face, glorify you without ceasing. With them we, too, confess your name in exultation, giving voice to every creature under heaven as we acclaim:
Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts.
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.​
We give you praise, Father most holy, for you are great, and you have fashioned all your works in wisdom and in love. You formed man in your own image and entrusted the whole world to his care, so that in serving you alone, the Creator, he might have dominion over all creatures.

And when through disobedience he had lost your friendship, you did not abandon him to the domain of death. For you came in mercy to the aid of all, so that those who seek might find you. Time and again you offered them covenants and through the prophets taught them to look forward to salvation.

And you so loved the world, Father most holy, that in the fullness of time you sent your Only Begotten Son to be our Savior. Made incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, he shared our human nature in all things but sin. To the poor he proclaimed the good news of salvation, to prisoners, freedom, and to the sorrowful of heart, joy.

To accomplish your plan, he gave himself up to death, and, rising from the dead, he destroyed death and restored life. And that we might live no longer for ourselves but for him who died and rose again for us, he sent the Holy Spirit from you, Father, as the first fruits for those who believe, so that, bringing to perfection his work in the world, he might sanctify creation to the full.

Therefore, O Lord, we pray: may this same Holy Spirit graciously sanctify these offerings, that they may become the Body + and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ for the celebration of this great mystery, which he himself left us as an eternal covenant.

For when the hour had come for him to be glorified by you, Father most holy, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end: and while they were at supper, he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying,

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT: FOR THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

In a similar way, taking the chalice filled with the fruit of the vine, he gave thanks, and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT; WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.

The mystery of faith:

We proclaim your Death, O Lord, and profess your Resurrection until you come again.

Therefore, O Lord, as we now celebrate the memorial of our redemption, we remember Christ’s death and his descent to the realm of the dead; we proclaim his Resurrection and his Ascension to your right hand; and as we await his coming in glory, we offer you his Body and Blood, the sacrifice acceptable to you which brings salvation to the whole world.

Look, O Lord, upon the Sacrifice which you yourself have provided for your Church, and grant in your loving kindness to all who partake of this one Bread and one Chalice that, gathered into one body by the Holy Spirit, they may truly become a living sacrifice in Christ to the praise of your glory.

Therefore, Lord, remember now all for whom we make this sacrifice: especially your servant, Francis our Pope,
Timothy our Bishop, and the whole Order of Bishops, all the clergy, those who take part in this offering, those gathered here before you, your entire people, and all who seek you with a sincere heart.

Remember also those who have died in the peace of your Christ and all the dead, whose faith you alone have known. To all of us, your children, grant, O merciful Father, that we may enter into a heavenly inheritance with the blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, and with your Apostles and Saints in your kingdom. There, with the whole of creation, freed from the corruption of sin and death, may we glorify you through Christ our Lord, through whom you bestow on the world all that is good.​
The prayer always attributes all glory to God and salvation to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope this is useful for you, brother [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION].
 
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Josiah

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Jesus Christ is the saviour. That is affirmed at every mass. It is affirmed in the creeds. It is affirmed in my prayers. I am not my own saviour. I am united to the Lord Jesus Christ by God's grace. Not by something I did or will do. And not because of something I believe. It is simply because of God's mercy. God's grace alone is the cause and the explanation of the salvation of the faithful.



Here's what our Catholic teachers taught us.....


+ "Jesus opened the gates to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it." Jesus thus NOT being the Savior but the POSSIBILITY-MAKER, He made salvation POSSIBLE for US to achieve.

+ "God HELPS those who help themselves."

+ "We get HELP to achieve salvation." What "HELP?" Well... the singular, individual RC Denomination. The "Treasury" of merits that the individual RC owns and doles out. The exactly, precisely SEVEN Sacraments that the individual RC Denomination owns and doles out. From the saints that the individual RC Denomination currently and officially declares to be such. From the Queen of the individual RC Denomination (probably what was stressed the most). Occasionally Jesus got mentioned but not much. Yes.... I do recall one teacher (anyway - may have been more) who stated that we can't get to heaven ON OUR OWN, by our OWN innate strength and ability - we need HELP. But even if the RC Denomination was replaced by Jesus, that would make Jesus the HELPER, not the Savior. Now, you craftfully SAY "we are saved by grace alone" but as was stressed to us by our Catholic teachers, "grace is the HELP we get.... grace is the 'gas' God puts in our 'tank' so that WE can get OURSELVES where WE need to be." You are simply affirmating my point: Catholic teachers typically don't teach that Jesus is the SAVIOR but rather a helper.

In my Catholic years, I was NEVER - not once - taught that Jesus is the Savior. Those words were chanted but the teaching immediately denied. What we were taught is that Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE (without His whatever, this would not be a possibility for us) and that Jesus is ONE of the many HELPS we get so that we can save ourselves. OCCASIONALLY, a Catholic will join hands with the Muslims who insist (passionately!) that NO ONE can do this on their own, by their own strength or ability, not at all, ALL the strength coming from Allah, but even for those few Catholics giving ALL the credit for the HELP to God (or more likely, the RC Denomination), that still is proclaiming Christ (or the RCC) as the HELPER, not the Savior. Again, I don't deny that Catholics at time chant the words "Jesus is the SAVIOR" they just then immediately deny what they just said, correcting it to Jesus is the possibility-maker and/or the helper.




Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. Not at all, not a bit. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.


IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. It's about YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter (possibility maker, helper, etc.), just not this one. The Savior is you.

There are only two places you can look: To the Cross or to the mirror. You are either trusting Jesus as the Savior or yourself. If your "answer" hinges on the words "me" or "I" then you are looking in the mirror.

Which is it? Try answering that. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place.




This is not one of the reasons why I left the RC Denomination..... it was a HUGE, HUGE refreshing revelation that I learned after leaving the RC Denomination. Now, having discussed this with MANY Catholics (including a Catholic priest) after my learning the Gospel from Lutherans, I have become convinced that actually the Christian Gospel is NOT officially denied or even abandoned/lost in the RC Denomination..... it's "there" if you dig far enough and carefully enough.... and there are some Catholics who (in spite of their Denomination) believe the Gospel (such being the power of the Holy Spirit). Luther himself noted this and I think he was right. It's just that the RC Denomination has become SO, SO very confused about all this, has so entangled things, so mixed up things, that it has baffled even itself, confused even itself - and thus its docilic members. There is NOTHING about which a church should be more clear than this..... but NOTHING that the RCC is more confused about than this. Sad. Tragic.



Sorry for participating in the diversion.... back to the issue of the thread.



- Josiah




.
 
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