How do you know what the Christian faith is?

[MoreCoffee]

Yep.. now you have a dilemma... The Shema

The problem is in the doctrine you accept and the blessed truth that you reject. If you reject the Trinity you ought not to be posting in this section of the forum.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua Ben Elohim
The Son of God to the Jewish Mind

Most Jewish people reject the concept of the Son of God despite being familiar with the Old Testament.

This I believe this is because of two main reasons :

• The idea that there is one and only one God (Adonai Eloheinu Adonai ehad) is very strong in the Jewish mind and although being true it seems to have strongly established itself among the people of Israel in times when they were surrounded by pagan nations who worshipped a multitude of gods. The idea of one God was an essential defence against infiltration of pagan Gods into the Jewish minds and culture.

• The second reason is two thousand years of Christianity and Christian culture. To most Jewish people throughout history, those who followed and follow Jesus believe in three Gods, a concept which to a Jewish person could not be more pagan. This was of course exacerbated by Roman Catholicism which actually encouraged the worship of man made images.

Psalm 2 is one of the Psalms that clearly describes somebody who is anointed by God and is also clearly referred to as the Son of God. Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzhaki) says that “…ancient rabbis attributed this Psalm to the Messiah King (Melech Ha-Mashiach) .” Modern interpretation associate it with David but of course David has never been given authority over the whole world let alone being called God’s Son.

In Proverbs 30:4 the writer asks six questions. The first four are structured almost in a rhetorical manner and talk about a mysterious being who has done amazing things : ” Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth?”

It is obvious that that being is God Himself as God is the one who has gone up to heaven and came down to earth. There is no human being who has ever done anything like this. God is also the one who established all the ends of the earth.

The fifth and sixth questions are the most interesting : What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

It is a sort of a challenge : Tell me if you know ! . Of course we know the name of God which was revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14-15 : Jehovah (Yehovah) or the great I Am (literally in the Hebrew : “I’ll be what I’ll be”). But what about the name of His Son ? If the previous being is God this must be the name of God’s Son ! .

To the writer here, this name was still a mystery, but to us it is not anymore. It is Yeshua HaMashiach – Jesus the Messiah.

Another strong reference to God’s Son is in the Hosea 11:1 “..out of Egypt I called my son”. God proclaims His love to Israel and mentions His son (see also Matthew 2:15)

The Son of God in Hebrews 1

God speaks through His Son, the heir of all things and the final revelation. He is His exact representation and so is superior to all things.

 

[Lamb]

Trinitarians readily admit that their definition of God is not explicitly taught anywhere in the scriptures. Not in the gospels, Paul, Moses, Peter, etc. In fact, they admit that the paradigm of three persons yet one God defies reason and refer to it as a profound divine mystery. The idea is that you can have any number of persons but if they are of the same "substance" then you still only have one God. Of course, this convenient principle does not work with humans, who all share the same substance and yet are all numerically added when there are multiple persons. Joe and John are two humans despite being of the same substance. The tricky math of 3 = 1 they consider part of God's incomprehensible nature.

Visionary are you non-trinitarian then?

 

[visionary]

The problem is in the doctrine you accept and the blessed truth that you reject. If you reject the Trinity you ought not to be posting in this section of the forum.

In that lies the error.

 

[visionary]

Visionary are you non-trinitarian then?

I am not either... just don't like only one position shoved down the throat like it is true. We do not know God to make a total declaration of knowledge on this subject. God is not easily defined. Blanket declarations leave much to be desired. The SHEMA is true. The Trinity doctrine has holes in it. I am waiting until the Millenium to understand fully this question.

 

[Lamb]

I am not either... just don't like only one position shoved down the throat like it is true. We do not know God to make a total declaration of knowledge on this subject. God is not easily defined. Blanket declarations leave much to be desired. The SHEMA is true. The Trinity doctrine has holes in it. I am waiting until the Millenium to understand fully this question.

Thank you for responding. I know a lot of Messianic Christians who are trinitarian in beliefs.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The problem is in the doctrine you accept and the blessed truth that you reject. If you reject the Trinity you ought not to be posting in this section of the forum.

That's messed up and equal to saying a nontrinitarian is a non Christian even though none can justify or explain how the doctrine of the trinity is necessary for salvation as opposed to believing and following the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of Jesus the Christ, the light and the way of GOD.

Scripture seems to say that we are to edify one another and accept some differences, I think this is one of those differences for multiple reasons.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's messed up and equal to saying a nontrinitarian is a non Christian even though none can justify or explain how the doctrine of the trinity is necessary for salvation as opposed to believing and following the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of Jesus the Christ, the light and the way of GOD.

Scripture seems to say that we are to edify one another and accept some differences, I think this is one of those differences for multiple reasons.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

There's a sub-forum in CH for speculative theology and world religions. The theology forum is intended for discussion between Christians who accept the Nicene Creed. If one rejects the holy trinity and the incarnation or even if one does not but wishes to discuss non-trinitarian views then world religions and speculative theology is the right place for such discussions. It is not my role to decide who is and who is not in God's grace but it is self evident that a discussion that sets out to teach some view in which the holy Trinity is not accepted is not a Nicene Christian discussion. Nothing mean spirited about it.

The Athanasian Creed explains (more a case of baldly stating) that belief in the Holy Trinity is necessary for salvation.

Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is
necessary that he hold the catholic [apostolic/universal] faith, which
except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will
perish eternally.

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in
Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For
there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy
Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the
Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the
father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father
eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three
eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty,
the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three
almighties but one almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not
three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy
Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are
compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be
both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say,
there be three Gods or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the
Father alone, nod made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the
Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So
there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and Holy
Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before
or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are
coeternal together and coequal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the trinity in Unity and the Unity
in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of
salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully
the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that
we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God
and Man.

He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He
is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God,
perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the
Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His
Manhood.

Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one
however not by conversion of the GodHead in the flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity
of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man
is one Christ.

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the
dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all
men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own
works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they
who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed
faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.​

 

[popsthebuilder]

There's a sub-forum in CH for speculative theology and world religions. The theology forum is intended for discussion between Christians who accept the Nicene Creed. If one rejects the holy trinity and the incarnation or even if one does not but wishes to discuss non-trinitarian views then world religions and speculative theology is the right place for such discussions. It is not my role to decide who is and who is not in God's grace but it is self evident that a discussion that sets out to teach some view in which the holy Trinity is not accepted is not a Nicene Christian discussion. Nothing mean spirited about it.

The Athanasian Creed explains (more a case of baldly stating) that belief in the Holy Trinity is necessary for salvation.

Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is
necessary that he hold the catholic [apostolic/universal] faith, which
except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will
perish eternally.

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in
Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For
there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy
Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the
Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the
father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father
eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three
eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty,
the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three
almighties but one almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not
three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy
Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are
compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be
both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say,
there be three Gods or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the
Father alone, nod made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the
Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So
there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and Holy
Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before
or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are
coeternal together and coequal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the trinity in Unity and the Unity
in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of
salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully
the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that
we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God
and Man.

He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He
is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God,
perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the
Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His
Manhood.

Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one
however not by conversion of the GodHead in the flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity
of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man
is one Christ.

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the
dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all
men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own
works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they
who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed
faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.​

That's all good and great but the trinity view of GOD isn't needed for salvation. I don't care how many traditions of men it is claimed in. If you think I'm not a Christian or not saved because I don't believe the trinity doctrine is needed for salvation then that's your business I guess, but I would ask you to show, scripturally how I am not saved if I don't see the necessity of that particular belief system.

To be clear, though stated previously; I do understand the trinity doctrine to be helpful in describing the aspects of GOD that can be described or perceived by us, I just can't justifiably claim that it is needed for me to be pleasing to GOD by following the way to GOD, the Christ.

Look up the word tradition in the new testament. Read the surrounding verses and grasp the context the word is used in; then tell me the orthodoxy/ tradition of man is still right.

Look at the gross misdirection of man for the last 2000 years, and contemplate who was most influential... Then tell yourself the traditions of man are without error.

Lastly; please don't go on a cut and paste frenzy.... Please

Peace friend


Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's all good and great but the trinity view of GOD isn't needed for salvation. I don't care how many traditions of men it is claimed in. If you think I'm not a Christian or not saved because I don't believe the trinity doctrine is needed for salvation then that's your business I guess, but I would ask you to show, scripturally how I am not saved if I don't see the necessity of that particular belief system.

To be clear, though stated previously; I do understand the trinity doctrine to be helpful in describing the aspects of GOD that can be described or perceived by us, I just can't justifiably claim that it is needed for me to be pleasing to GOD by following the way to GOD, the Christ.

Look up the word tradition in the new testament. Read the surrounding verses and grasp the context the word is used in; then tell me the orthodoxy/ tradition of man is still right.

Look at the gross misdirection of man for the last 2000 years, and contemplate who was most influential... Then tell yourself the traditions of man are without error.

Lastly; please don't go on a cut and paste frenzy.... Please ��

Peace friend


Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

I do not think that anything but God's grace is necessary for salvation but I think that knowing God and knowing him well is a privilege that God graciously extends to all who have the holy scriptures and the church available to help and guide them. Grace is not given only if one has a degree in theology but those who take the time and make the effort to gain such a degree with the intelligence and gifts that God gave to them are given grace in their learning and can teach wisdom to others. I do not want to take a lonely path to self education when better minds than mine and holier people than I have already studied and taught and written on subjects of interest to me. I believe the Nicene Creed because it is the product of the thought and prayers of godly men (and some women too I do not doubt) who worked for the benefit of all the faithful. If some today do not accept it then that is their affair. If such people wish to discuss their views then fine, let them do so in the proper place at the proper time. I would not welcome having mass interrupted by some person who thinks he/she has a right to teach contrary to the teaching of the church and decides that they want to do their teaching during a mass.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I do not think that anything but God's grace is necessary for salvation but I think that knowing God and knowing him well is a privilege that God graciously extends to all who have the holy scriptures and the church available to help and guide them. Grace is not given only if one has a degree in theology but those who take the time and make the effort to gain such a degree with the intelligence and gifts that God gave to them are given grace in their learning and can teach wisdom to others. I do not want to take a lonely path to self education when better minds than mine and holier people than I have already studied and taught and written on subjects of interest to me. I believe the Nicene Creed because it is the product of the thought and prayers of godly men (and some women too I do not doubt) who worked for the benefit of all the faithful. If some today do not accept it then that is their affair. If such people wish to discuss their views then fine, let them do so in the proper place at the proper time. I would not welcome having mass interrupted by some person who thinks he/she has a right to teach contrary to the teaching of the church and decides that they want to do their teaching during a mass.

So now your saying that the trinity isn't needed for salvation?

Also; I don't think God's grace is extended expressly to college graduates. I have no degree in theology, but can plainly read where it says to have no respect for men or their traditions. I'm not a college grad but even I can surmise that when the Christ said the meek will inherit the earth I don't think that was code for college educated folk have first dibs on grace. I may be considered a fool by many, and a heretic by others, by my salvation is between the LORD and myself.

Lastly; this isn't mass, it is a Christian discussion board. I'm a Christian and have things to discuss. Relegating these things to speculative religion automatically disregards them as unimportant, irrelevant, and anti Christian... Not the best way to be taken seriously, or for edification of brothers/ sisters in Christ.

What's sad is that most who read this will baulk at the mere thought of me being a brother in Christ.

I think I'm bout done with this sight.

If I'm not allowed an opinion because it varies from that of the general mass then what profitable conversation can be hoped for?

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

So now your saying that the trinity isn't needed for salvation?

For anyone like you who has the opportunity to know and understand the creeds belief is expected but God alone judges. There's no need for me to repeat the creed and no need for me to restate that God's grace is the one and only essential for the salvation of souls.

Also; I don't think God's grace is extended expressly to college graduates. I have no degree in theology, but can plainly read where it says to have no respect for men or their traditions. I'm not a college grad but even I can surmise that when the Christ said the meek will inherit the earth I don't think that was code for college educated folk have first dibs on grace. I may be considered a fool by many, and a heretic by others, by my salvation is between the LORD and myself.

Lastly; this isn't mass, it is a Christian discussion board. I'm a Christian and have things to discuss. Relegating these things to speculative religion automatically disregards them as unimportant, irrelevant, and anti Christian... Not the best way to be taken seriously, or for edification of brothers/ sisters in Christ.

What's sad is that most who read this will baulk at the mere thought of me being a brother in Christ.

I think I'm bout done with this sight.

If I'm not allowed an opinion because it varies from that of the general mass then what profitable conversation can be hoped for?

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Let me show you what the holy scriptures say about tradition(s).

[Matthew 15:2] "Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

[Matthew 15:3] But responding, he said to them: "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said:

[Matthew 15:6] then he shall not honor his father or his mother." So have you nullified the commandment of God, for the sake of your tradition.

[Mark 7:3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat without repeatedly washing their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders.

[Mark 7:5] And so the Pharisees and the scribes questioned him: "Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but they eat bread with common hands?"

[Mark 7:8] For abandoning the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men, to the washing of pitchers and cups. And you do many other things similar to these."

[Mark 7:9] And he said to them: "You effectively nullify the precept of God, so that you may observe your own tradition.

[Mark 7:13] rescinding the word of God through your tradition, which you have handed down. And you do many other similar things in this way."

[2 Thessalonians 3:6] But we strongly caution you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to draw yourselves away from every brother who is walking in disorder and not according to the tradition that they received from us.
​

Troublesome traditions are specifically called the traditions of the elders and you own traditions and traditions of men all which indicate traditions that were not given by God. Holy tradition is given by God through the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles. That is why it is also called apostolic tradition.

I do not agree that discussions in world religions and speculative theology are ipso facto trivial and unimportant.

 

[Pedrito]

How important it is.

How important correct translation is, in the presentation to us of God’s Holy Inspired Scripture.

Translation of not just a word into one of its possible meanings, but into the meaning that is appropriate in the context.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MoreCoffee, in Post # 72 on Page 8, provided a number of scriptures pertaining to the “traditions” of the Jews, and then one reference referring to the “tradition” of the apostles.

He then used the similarity of words as translated, to give credence to the idea that the post-Biblical traditions (that slowly developed over hundreds of years, and thousands of years), were somehow traditions received from the apostles.

That is not a concept that survives proper scrutiny.

Quite obviously, any and all “traditions” handed down by the apostles would have been known and practiced in their entirety from the very start.

Therefore it follows naturally, that any and all “traditions” that developed after the death of the apostles, are obviously doctrines and practices of men. It is interesting to see how Paul defines such identifiable aberrations: Galatians 1:8,9:

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

As the preceding verses show us, the apostles were combatting such aberrations even while they were still alive. Galatians 1:6,7:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

That is why the epistles were written. To combat error. To encapsulate the truth for their readers. And for us. Just as well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But what about 2 Thessalonians 3:6?:

But we strongly caution you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to draw yourselves away from every brother who is walking in disorder and not according to the tradition that they received from us.

What do we do with that?

Well the Greek word translated “traditions” in that verse in some versions, is also translated as “teachings” in others. Why? Because that Greek word carries both meanings. In the Jewish context, it referred to doctrines and practices developed by the Jews (Israel) throughout their post-exile history. In Paul’s context it referred to the fresh apostolic teaching about the risen Saviour, the efficaciousness of His death and resurrection, and how it all fitted into God’s overall purposes. The two are totally different.

Therefore, any extra-Biblical “traditions” are definitely not apostolic. How did Paul define them?
1 Timothy 4:1:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tradition is in Greek spelled παράδοσις which is the word present in:

Mat 15:2 Διὰ τί οἱ μαθηταί σου παραβαίνουσιν τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν πρεσβυτέρων; οὐ γὰρ νίπτονται τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῶν ὅταν ἄρτον ἐσθίωσιν.
Mat 15:3 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Διὰ τί καὶ ὑμεῖς παραβαίνετε τὴν ἐντολὴν τοῦ θεοῦ διὰ τὴν παράδοσιν ὑμῶν;
Mat 15:6 οὐ μὴ τιμήσει τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ· καὶ ἠκυρώσατε τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ διὰ τὴν παράδοσιν ὑμῶν.
Mar 7:3 οἱ γὰρ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ πάντες οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐὰν μὴ πυγμῇ νίψωνται τὰς χεῖρας οὐκ ἐσθίουσιν, κρατοῦντες τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν πρεσβυτέρων,
Mar 7:5 καὶ ἐπερωτῶσιν αὐτὸν οἱ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ οἱ γραμματεῖς, Διὰ τί οὐ περιπατοῦσιν οἱ μαθηταί σου κατὰ τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν πρεσβυτέρων, ἀλλὰ κοιναῖς χερσὶν ἐσθίουσιν τὸν ἄρτον;
Mar 7:8 ἀφέντες τὴν ἐντολὴν τοῦ θεοῦ κρατεῖτε τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν ἀνθρώπων.
Mar 7:9 Καὶ ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς, Καλῶς ἀθετεῖτε τὴν ἐντολὴν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα τὴν παράδοσιν ὑμῶν στήσητε.
Mar 7:13 ἀκυροῦντες τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ παραδόσει ὑμῶν ᾗ παρεδώκατε· καὶ παρόμοια τοιαῦτα πολλὰ ποιεῖτε.​

Which is the same word in 2Thessalonians 3:6
2Th 3:6 Παραγγέλλομεν δὲ ὑμῖν, ἀδελφοί, ἐν ὀνόματι τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, στέλλεσθαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ παντὸς ἀδελφοῦ ἀτάκτως περιπατοῦντος καὶ μὴ κατὰ τὴν παράδοσιν ἣν παρελάβοσαν παρ' ἡμῶν.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tradition (παραδόσεις) is also the Greek word used in
1Co 11:2 Ἐπαινῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς ὅτι πάντα μου μέμνησθε καὶ καθὼς παρέδωκα ὑμῖν τὰς παραδόσεις κατέχετε.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In Greek "Teaching" is spelled διδασκαλίας as it is in
Col 2:22 ἅ ἐστιν πάντα εἰς φθορὰν τῇ ἀποχρήσει, κατὰ τὰ ἐντάλματα καὶ διδασκαλίας τῶν ἀνθρώπων;
1Ti 1:10 πόρνοις, ἀρσενοκοίταις, ἀνδραποδισταῖς, ψεύσταις, ἐπιόρκοις, καὶ εἴ τι ἕτερον τῇ ὑγιαινούσῃ διδασκαλίᾳ ἀντίκειται,
1Ti 5:17 Οἱ καλῶς προεστῶτες πρεσβύτεροι διπλῆς τιμῆς ἀξιούσθωσαν, μάλιστα οἱ κοπιῶντες ἐν λόγῳ καὶ διδασκαλίᾳ
and many other passages.

 

[visionary]

For anyone like you who has the opportunity to know and understand the creeds belief is expected but God alone judges. There's no need for me to repeat the creed and no need for me to restate that God's grace is the one and only essential for the salvation of souls.



Let me show you what the holy scriptures say about tradition(s).

[Matthew 15:2] "Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

[Matthew 15:3] But responding, he said to them: "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said:

[Matthew 15:6] then he shall not honor his father or his mother." So have you nullified the commandment of God, for the sake of your tradition.

[Mark 7:3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat without repeatedly washing their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders.

[Mark 7:5] And so the Pharisees and the scribes questioned him: "Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but they eat bread with common hands?"

[Mark 7:8] For abandoning the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men, to the washing of pitchers and cups. And you do many other things similar to these."

[Mark 7:9] And he said to them: "You effectively nullify the precept of God, so that you may observe your own tradition.

[Mark 7:13] rescinding the word of God through your tradition, which you have handed down. And you do many other similar things in this way."

[2 Thessalonians 3:6] But we strongly caution you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to draw yourselves away from every brother who is walking in disorder and not according to the tradition that they received from us.
​

Troublesome traditions are specifically called the traditions of the elders and you own traditions and traditions of men all which indicate traditions that were not given by God. Holy tradition is given by God through the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles. That is why it is also called apostolic tradition.

I do not agree that discussions in world religions and speculative theology are ipso facto trivial and unimportant.

Those are Jewish traditions, not apostolic traditions.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #71 on Page 8, popsthebuilder said [emphasis added]:

... I'm a Christian and have things to discuss. Relegating these things to speculative religion automatically disregards them as unimportant, irrelevant, and anti Christian... Not the best way to be taken seriously, or for edification of brothers/ sisters in Christ.

What's sad is that most who read this will baulk at the mere thought of me being a brother in Christ.

I think I'm bout done with this sight.

If I'm not allowed an opinion because it varies from that of the general mass then what profitable conversation can be hoped for?

I would request of popsthebuilder, counsel him even, not to act precipitously should the same feeling overtake him again.

I’m sure he knows already that it is a normal human trait to resist having one’s mind changed, irrespective of the amount and quality of relevant evidence that is presented – evidence that should convince people to do so.

That is why Baptists remain Baptists, Anglicans remain Anglicans, Roman Catholics remain Roman Catholics, and Lutherans remain Lutherans, for instance.

It is a characteristic of Fallen Man to adopt a stance for whatever reason, then defend that stance to the death as it were, using whatever weapons come to hand, whether logical or illogical, honest or dishonest, as the situation requires. Courtroom lawyers are an extreme, but by no means isolated, example of this general rule.

That being the case, what should be the aim of people like popsthebuilder, seeing that convincing others is not a practical proposition?

I suggest that the only sensible objective for them is to bear witness to the truth as they see it, and leave the staunch denominationalists without excuse if they happen to reject a truth of God, or maybe two, or three, or more, when those truths are presented.

I further suggest that popsthebuilder et al be open to adjusting their views in the light of Scripture when viewed in its proper context. I submit that it is only by doing so that we can understand God’s real message to us, especially as directly expressed by Jesus, by the Gospel writers, and by the writers of the “epistles”. (It is understood that there is some overlap in those categories.)

I don’t think it inappropriate to encourage popsthebuilder to continue to bear witness to the truth as he sees it, and also to be sensitive to the true context of each section of God’s Holy Revelation as he reads it, be it in his own personal study, or as presented by others in this forum.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Those are Jewish traditions, not apostolic traditions.

The bad ones were Jewish and the good ones were apostolic.

 

[psalms 91]

Wow just wow and we wonder why the Catholic church persecuted the Ajewish? Apparently some of those feelings still exist