Grace perfects nature.

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Grace heals what is broken in people. Grace perfects nature.

Do you believe this?
 

onlyme

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Grace heals what is broken in people. Grace perfects nature.

Do you believe this?
My own view of grace would be in accordance with Ephesians 2, where nature in all its corrupt state is seen, but where grace superabounds over nature. The Thomist blending of grace and nature would not seem to be in harmony with the first half of Ephesians 2, for example.
 

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My own view of grace would be in accordance with Ephesians 2, where nature in all its corrupt state is seen, but where grace superabounds over nature. The Thomist blending of grace and nature would not seem to be in harmony with the first half of Ephesians 2, for example.

Ephesians 2:1-11 [1] And you were once dead in your sins and offenses, [2] in which you walked in times past, according to the age of this world, according to the prince of the power of this sky, the spirit who now works in the sons of distrust. [3] And we too were all conversant in these things, in times past, by the desires of our flesh, acting according to the will of the flesh and according to our own thoughts. And so we were, by nature, sons of wrath, even like the others. [4] Yet still, God, who is rich in mercy, for the sake of his exceedingly great charity with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our sins, has enlivened us together in Christ, by whose grace you have been saved. [6] And he has raised us up together, and he has caused us to sit down together in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, [7] so that he may display, in the ages soon to arrive, the abundant wealth of his grace, by his goodness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. [9] And this is not of works, so that no one may glory. [10] For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has prepared and in which we should walk. [11] Because of this, be mindful that, in times past, you were Gentiles in the flesh, and that you were called uncircumcised by those who are called circumcised in the flesh, something done by man,

That's the first half, so exactly where is creation (nature) and grace (God's free gift) opposed?
 

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Ephesians 2:1-11 [1] And you were once dead in your sins and offenses, [2] in which you walked in times past, according to the age of this world, according to the prince of the power of this sky, the spirit who now works in the sons of distrust. [3] And we too were all conversant in these things, in times past, by the desires of our flesh, acting according to the will of the flesh and according to our own thoughts. And so we were, by nature, sons of wrath, even like the others. [4] Yet still, God, who is rich in mercy, for the sake of his exceedingly great charity with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our sins, has enlivened us together in Christ, by whose grace you have been saved. [6] And he has raised us up together, and he has caused us to sit down together in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, [7] so that he may display, in the ages soon to arrive, the abundant wealth of his grace, by his goodness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. [9] And this is not of works, so that no one may glory. [10] For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has prepared and in which we should walk. [11] Because of this, be mindful that, in times past, you were Gentiles in the flesh, and that you were called uncircumcised by those who are called circumcised in the flesh, something done by man,

That's the first half, so exactly where is creation (nature) and grace (God's free gift) opposed?

In verse 4.

'Yet..."

The intervention of God's grace stands in stark contrast with the state of human nature, walking according to the course of this world, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...children of wrath. What a contrast. 'Even when we were dead in sins..' is when grace intervened, according to Paul's thinking here. It's not so much a picture of a Thomist blending of nature with grace, as it is of grace wondrously superabounding - in contrast to the state of the natural man - to those who turn and believe.
 

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In verse 4.

'Yet..."

The intervention of God's grace stands in stark contrast with the state of human nature, walking according to the course of this world, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...children of wrath. What a contrast. 'Even when we were dead in sins..' is when grace intervened, according to Paul's thinking here. It's not so much a picture of a Thomist blending of nature with grace, as it is of grace wondrously superabounding - in contrast to the state of the natural man - to those who turn and believe.

The contrast in saint Paul's letter is between humanity in the fallen state with a disordered (chaotic and corrupted) nature and grace in which human nature is amended and conformed to the image of Christ. This is grace perfecting nature is it not?
 

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The contrast in saint Paul's letter is between humanity in the fallen state with a disordered (chaotic and corrupted) nature and grace in which human nature is amended and conformed to the image of Christ. This is grace perfecting nature is it not?

In the sense of transition from one to another, this form of words might be used; but, from the perspective of moral and spiritual character, the chasm is vast, and nothing less than new creatures in Christ - which Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5.17 - are what superabounding grace forges in repentant sinners. And I think the moral and spiritual aspects are paramount in terms of deciding the terminology.
 

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In the sense of transition from one to another, this form of words might be used; but, from the perspective of moral and spiritual character, the chasm is vast, and nothing less than new creatures in Christ - which Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5.17 - are what superabounding grace forges in repentant sinners. And I think the moral and spiritual aspects are paramount in terms of deciding the terminology.

A new creation but not new people, the faithful are renewed and this too is nature perfected by grace.

Ephesians 1:9-10 [9] So does he make known to us the mystery of his will, which he has set forth in Christ, in a manner well-pleasing to him, [10] in the dispensation of the fullness of time, so as to renew in Christ everything that exists through him in heaven and on earth.
 

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A new creation but not new people, the faithful are renewed and this too is nature perfected by grace.

Ephesians 1:9-10 [9] So does he make known to us the mystery of his will, which he has set forth in Christ, in a manner well-pleasing to him, [10] in the dispensation of the fullness of time, so as to renew in Christ everything that exists through him in heaven and on earth.
I can certainly see the sense of Paradise Lost / Paradise Restored. But I would not use the term renewal to describe what Peter says is, at conversion of the sinner, coming 'out of darkness into His marvellous light' (1 Peter 2.9). More than a renewal of life that was already supposedly there, conversion is a life-giving change from two fundamentally different states, dead in trespasses and sins, in nature's darkness to 'light in the Lord' (Ephesians 5.8). There could not be a greater contrast, whereas the Thomist attempt at blending grace and nature would seem to mask this wondrous transition in grace.
 

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I can certainly see the sense of Paradise Lost / Paradise Restored. But I would not use the term renewal to describe what Peter says is, at conversion of the sinner, coming 'out of darkness into His marvellous light' (1 Peter 2.9). More than a renewal of life that was already supposedly there, conversion is a life-giving change from two fundamentally different states, dead in trespasses and sins, in nature's darkness to 'light in the Lord' (Ephesians 5.8). There could not be a greater contrast, whereas the Thomist attempt at blending grace and nature would seem to mask this wondrous transition in grace.

A new heavens and a new earth as well as people who are new creations in Christ Jesus are nevertheless the same people, earth, and heavens that God created in the beginning. God was not thwarted by sin, he make it the occasion for "so great a salvation" that eye and ear have not encountered here in this life yet that are present in this world through the incarnation.

What state is the risen Christ in now? How do you know he is the Christ who lived and died 2,000 years ago?
 

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A new heavens and a new earth as well as people who are new creations in Christ Jesus are nevertheless the same people, earth, and heavens that God created in the beginning. God was not thwarted by sin, he make it the occasion for "so great a salvation" that eye and ear have not encountered here in this life yet that are present in this world through the incarnation.

What state is the risen Christ in now? How do you know he is the Christ who lived and died 2,000 years ago?
But the Lord Jesus 'did no sin' 'knew no sin', 'in Him is no sin'. His is a different condition of humanity from ours in Adam after the Fall. Adam's was innocent before the Fall, but in Adam now humanity is sinful and fallen. But Christ's humanity, while real, is sinless and only as we embrace Him as our sinless substitute can repentant, fallen humanity aspire thus: 'Come, desire of nations, come, Fix in us Thy humble home'.
 

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But the Lord Jesus 'did no sin' 'knew no sin', 'in Him is no sin'. His is a different condition of humanity from ours in Adam after the Fall. Adam's was innocent before the Fall, but in Adam now humanity is sinful and fallen. But Christ's humanity, while real, is sinless and only as we embrace Him as our sinless substitute can repentant, fallen humanity aspire thus: 'Come, desire of nations, come, Fix in us Thy humble home'.

The Lord knew no sin yet died. How can the immortal sinless God die? How can a man be God?

I do not intend to distract so you need not answer the above questions. I hope we both believe that in the incarnation the Word took flesh and dwelt among us - full of grace and truth. The point is not to be distracted by the Deity of Christ causing one to forget why he came as a man. He came to redeem humanity. To heal, renew, cleans, perfect human beings.
 

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The Lord knew no sin yet died. How can the immortal sinless God die? How can a man be God?

I do not intend to distract so you need not answer the above questions. I hope we both believe that in the incarnation the Word took flesh and dwelt among us - full of grace and truth. The point is not to be distracted by the Deity of Christ causing one to forget why he came as a man. He came to redeem humanity. To heal, renew, cleans, perfect human beings.
I think the answer lies generally in 2 Corinthians 5.21:

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

There really is a difference between the humanity of fallen mankind and the perfect humanity of the believer's sinless substitute.
 

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I think the answer lies generally in 2 Corinthians 5.21:

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

There really is a difference between the humanity of fallen mankind and the perfect humanity of the believer's sinless substitute.

How can the faithful be the body of Christ?
 

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How can the faithful be the body of Christ?
Ephesians 1.22-23: "the church, which is His body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all".
 

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Ephesians 1.22-23: "the church, which is His body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all".

I know the verse, how is it true now?
 

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I know the verse, how is it true now?
I and 2 Thessalonians provide a view on the one hand of the body of Christ raptured to heaven (1 Thess), and then accompanying the Lord in power and glory (2 Thess.). Now the church lives in the prospect of these two aspects of His coming.
 

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Grace heals what is broken in people. Grace perfects nature.

Do you believe this?

God's grace can do anything but it is only according to His will and His timing.
 

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God created it perfect, it no longer is and wont be till it is time
 

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God created it perfect, it no longer is and wont be till it is time

Nature is not an "it" it is a multitude of things as well as a multitude of beings.
 
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