Ever Virgin

[MoreCoffee]

First thing I do when I get to heaven is test their DNA.

I believe that when the faithful finally receive their reward they will not be concerned about the questions raised in this thread because they will then know the truth.

 

[Pedrito]

MoreCoffee, Post # 185, Page 19:

Your posts appear to claim that Mary had sex with Joseph but there's no passage in holy scripture that teaches that. Guess being a confessional Lutheran doesn't prevent one from advocating unsupported claims. What I wonder is why anyone would want to do that.

Actually, there are many statements in Scripture which support the perspective that Mary became a normal wife to Joseph after the birth of Jesus, especially Matthew 1:24,25 [[emphasis added]]: “24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
The underlined phrase is redundant and confusing unless the obvious meaning intended by the author is acknowledged. If Joseph had never ever “known” her, then that particular phrase would have been excluded.

Now, as for the statements:

Guess being a confessional Lutheran doesn't prevent one from advocating unsupported claims. What I wonder is why anyone would want to do that.

What about the churches that hold to the notion that Joseph never “knew” Mary (a notion that has far less Scriptural support than the thought that she did), and turn it into an item of faith (or dogma)?

"What I wonder is why anyone would want to do that."

MoreCoffee, Post #187, Page 19:

Seems to me, dear Rens, that the folk who insist that Blessed Mary was not a virgin are the ones who express prurient curiosity.

Readers. Please note the tricky wording – the tricky twist.

“...the folk who insist that Blessed Mary was not a virgin...” (emphasis mine)

Is it not an attempt to plant an idea into the Reader's mind, that anyone who does not support the idea of Mary being a perpetual virgin, is actually denying that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus?

Tricky indeed.

MoreCoffee’s techniques have been pointed out elsewhere. Be wary of them. And also, ask yourselves: "Why does he feel the need to use them?" That was also explained.

 

[Pedrito]

MoreCoffee, Post 189 on Page 19:

The holy scriptures do not say how to build an internal combustion engine yet it is known how to build one. The reasoning in your post is faulty.

All the technical manuals pertaining to internal combustion engines that I have seen (don’t ask me to list them), contained the information required and necessary for that purpose. I have yet to see one that contained spiritual guidance. (I think we can exclude the 1974 book entitled “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”.)

I guess that means that psalms 91’s assertion:

If the scripture doesnt say it then it cant be known

was correct after all.

Is it not amazing the lengths people will go to, to support cherished, extra-Biblical ideas?

Morecoffee in Post #200 on Page 20:

Nobody needs to know. Faith is not knowing it is believing because God has said it is so and the apostles said it was so as messengers of God that is why the early church fathers from the earliest times bore testimony to the truth that Blessed Mary is ever virgin.

I ask MoreCoffee to show us exactly where "God has said it is so and the apostles said it was so as messengers of God".

I further request that he supply to us the details of the first three mentions of Mary being a perpetual virgin (the church father who did the mentioning, the date (year will do), and the document where mentioned.

 

[Josiah]

I further request that he supply to us the details of the first three mentions of Mary being a perpetual virgin (the church father who did the mentioning, the date (year will do), and the document where mentioned.[/COLOR]

MoreCoffee will ignore that request.....


I'd add to list the first mentions of Mary's sex life after Jesus was born AT ALL.... that changed the earliest tradition (as found in the Bible) of respectful SILENCE on that extremely private, intimate detail of their marriage bed info.... Because the earliest mentions came from people who had NO WAY to know that supremely private, personal tidbit of info.... and no way to recieve permission from Mary and Joseph to make it public. And the earliest were to imply she DID have sex.

Now.... he'll be able to show earlier things about Mary having had no other children but that's irrelevant since no denomination on the planet has or ever has had a De Fide Dogma of "Jesus Had No Sibs" the discussion is not siblings, it's sex. Catholics DO often try to suggest that if a couple has sex - even once - ergo it is a biological NECESSITY that they have a child resulting from that specifically named in the Bible (I think I was maybe 10 - just a wee Catholic boy - when I recognized the absurdity of that point): The issue is not sibs, it's sex.

And then note how our esteemed friend constantly, perpetually, persistently dodges the issue of status - that in his denomination, this is de fide dogma: a matter of highest importance, certainty and necessity. It needs to be defended as true to the level claimed, not just "but it's theoretically POSSIBLE because with God EVERYTHING is possible!" The De Fide Dogma is not "It is a vague, irrelevant theoretical possibility that Mary died a virgin but then it's theoretically possible Joe found those plates near his house in New York, too." Nope.



See posts 130, 132, 137, 154, 157, 164, 166. All you've by necessity evaded.



- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The first mention of Blessed Mary as ever virgin is in the proevangelion of James. I quoted it earlier in the thread. It is dated to around 120 AD or earlier.

"And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . And he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl ... And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth ... And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7-9, 15).​

Other early mentions are found in the writings of Origin (around 248 AD), saint Hilary of Poitiers (around 354 AD), saint Athanasius (around 360 AD), saint Epiphanius of Salamis (around 374 AD)

"The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honour of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first fruit of virginity." (Origin; Commentary on Matthew 2:17)

"If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate." (saint Hilary of Poitiers; Commentary on Matthew 1:4)

"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary." (saint Athanasius; Discourses Against the Arians 2:70)

"We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit" (saint Epiphanius of Salamis; The Man Well-Anchored 120)

"And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (saint Epiphanius of Salamis; Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6)​

Of course these are only a sample of the ancient written testimony to the ever virgin Blessed mother of God.

 

[Josiah]

The first mention of Blessed Mary as ever virgin is in the proevangelion of James. I quoted it earlier in the thread. It is dated to around 120 AD or earlier.

"And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . And he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl ... And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth ... And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7-9, 15).​

Nice try, but you prove yourself wrong. Not one word about Mary being a PERPETUAL virgin.... one one word about her vaginal state at the moment of her death (or undeath - depending on what Catholic teacher you docilicly submit to).

Other early mentions are found in the writings of Origin (around 248 AD), saint Hilary of Poitiers (around 354 AD), saint Athanasius (around 360 AD), saint Epiphanius of Salamis (around 374 AD)

Early?

Seems quite separated from the lifespan of Mary, the only one who could tell this supremely private, personal tidbit of marital bed intimacy and give permission to share it. How did she tell Epiphanius this in 374 AD?






See posts 130, 132, 137, 154, 157, 164 and 166



- Josiah




.

 

[PezGirl73]

"And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (saint Epiphanius of Salamis; Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6)
​

Cuz sex is eww gross yuck, amiright??

Having sex with her husband would not have DEFILED Mary.

 

[Josiah]

Cuz sex is eww gross yuck, amiright??

Having sex with her husband would not have DEFILED Mary.

There is that apologetic among some Catholics..... I heard it in my Catholic days. On NO doctrine is Catholic apologetics weaker (and just embarrassingly BAD) than when it comes to this Dogma of the RC Denomination. It often is shocking.... even a bit disturbing. And I think it does the RC much harm.

Notice how our esteemed Catholic brother as so carefully evaded so much....... from others and of also from me (see posts 130, 132, 137, 154, 157, 164, 166, 206).



Amazing. But mostly, SAD.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Cuz sex is eww gross yuck, amiright??

Having sex with her husband would not have DEFILED Mary.

Perhaps it is to you. It was not to saint Epiphanius of Salamis. The Blessed Virgin Mary received her one and only child without having sex.

 

[PezGirl73]

Perhaps it is to you. It was not to saint Epiphanius of Salamis.

Then why would Joseph having sex with her defile her?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then why would Joseph having sex with her defile her?

Saint Joseph protected the Blessed Virgin Mary and her most Holy Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Why does this seem incredible to you? Surely you have read the word undefiled in the holy scriptures?

[Psalms 119:1] Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

[Song of Solomon 5:2] I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.

[Song of Solomon 6:9] My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.

[Hebrews 7:26] For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

[Hebrews 13:4] Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

[James 1:27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

[1 Peter 1:4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

[Wisdom 3:13] Their offspring is cursed. Wherefore blessed is the barren that is undefiled, which hath not known the sinful bed: she shall have fruit in the visitation of souls.

[Wisdom 4:2] When it is present, men take example at it; and when it is gone, they desire it: it weareth a crown, and triumpheth for ever, having gotten the victory, striving for undefiled rewards.

[Wisdom 7:22] For wisdom, which is the worker of all things, taught me: for in her is an understanding spirit holy, one only, manifold, subtil, lively, clear, undefiled, plain, not subject to hurt, loving the thing that is good quick, which cannot be letted, ready to do good,

[Wisdom 8:20] Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.

[Wisdom 14:24] They kept neither lives nor marriages any longer undefiled: but either one slew another traiterously, or grieved him by adultery.

[2 Maccabees 7:40] So this man died undefiled, and put his whole trust in the Lord.

[2 Maccabees 14:36] Therefore now, O holy Lord of all holiness, keep this house ever undefiled, which lately was cleansed, and stop every unrighteous mouth.

[2 Maccabees 15:34] So every man praised toward the heaven the glorious Lord, saying, Blessed be he that hath kept his own place undefiled.​

The verses shown above are examples taken from the KJV. The use of the word "undefiled" does not imply that lawful marital relations are wicked. Even a lawfully married woman was accounted "unclean" at various times and also following the birth of a child.

[Leviticus 12:2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

[Leviticus 15:18] The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

[Leviticus 15:19] And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

[Leviticus 15:25] And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean.

[Leviticus 15:33] And of her that is sick of her flowers, and of him that hath an issue, of the man, and of the woman, and of him that lieth with her that is unclean.

[Mark 7:25] For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:​

The above verses are also from the KJV.

In the holy scriptures virginity is a state of purity. It may be physical and moral in nature. The ancient churches proclaim Blessed Mary as ever virgin primarily to emphasise her purity in life and morals the idea of chaste life within her marriage to saint Joseph is secondary even though it is important. If prurient curiosity drives some to assume otherwise then let them explain their prurience. For the faithful this matter was settled in the early centuries of the Church's history.

 

[Lamb]

Then why would Joseph having sex with her defile her?

Not that I agree with it but from what I have heard in the way of arguments was that Joseph did not dare to enter where God had dwelt and it's based on this verse: “This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it” (Ezek 44:2).

 

[Rens]

Then why would Joseph having sex with her defile her?

Not washing your clothes defiled them too.
Exodus 19:

*Then the*Lord*said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes.*11*And let them be ready for the third day. For on the third day the*Lord*will come down upon Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.*12*You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Take heed to yourselves*that*you do*not*go up to the mountain or touch its base. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.*13*Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot*with an arrow;*whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.”

14*So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and sanctified the people, and they washed their clothes.15*And he said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not come near*your wives.”

 

[Josiah]

Not that I agree with it but from what I have heard in the way of arguments was that Joseph did not dare to enter where God had dwelt and it's based on this verse: “This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it” (Ezek 44:2).

Yup, heard that one, too. Of course, if you READ the verse, it's talking about a GATE, not a female body part. And nowhere does Scripture say that Mary's ANYTHING was ever "shut." And of course, the idea that God cannot "enter" where sin has been, then by that you'd have to denounce the Incarnation. Or sinful where only holy has been, you'd have to deny the Fall. It's just a silly apologetic - trying to imply that marital intimacy is gross and somehow defiles the woman (but not the man).

And of course, we're still waiting for our Catholic friend to support as true that LUKE states Mary was a perpetual virgin.... and even that some unknown person of some REJECTED book states so.... indeed, in both cases, he himself proved his claim false. Where is the defense of the as TRUE (not just parroted - eventually)? To the level claimed (de fide Dogma - a matter of highest importance, certainty and necessity possible)? All we're getting are evasions, diversions.... Yes, we all know that EVENTUALLY, all who said it agreed with those who also said it.... okay, we know that. And yes, those who said it was true said that what they said is true.... we know that. But what do you have to show this normally very, very, very private, personal, detail of marital intimacies is TRUE - as a matter of highest certainty, importance and necessity? How do you trace this back to Mary - the one one who could have known this tidbid of bedroom info and the only one who could give permission to make this very public? What is the basis of entirely overturning the respectful SILENCE of the Bible and of the first centuries of Tradition? Why does it matter - SO MUCH - how often couples have sex (if at all)? Why is that a matter of highest importance possible?

See posts 130, 132, 137, 154, 157, 164, 167, 206.

 

[Josiah]

Saint Joseph protected the Blessed Virgin Mary and her most Holy Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Why does this seem incredible to you? Surely you have read the word undefiled in the holy scriptures?

[Psalms 119:1] Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

[Song of Solomon 5:2] I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.

[Song of Solomon 6:9] My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.

[Hebrews 7:26] For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

[Hebrews 13:4] Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

[James 1:27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

[1 Peter 1:4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

[Wisdom 3:13] Their offspring is cursed. Wherefore blessed is the barren that is undefiled, which hath not known the sinful bed: she shall have fruit in the visitation of souls.

[Wisdom 4:2] When it is present, men take example at it; and when it is gone, they desire it: it weareth a crown, and triumpheth for ever, having gotten the victory, striving for undefiled rewards.

[Wisdom 7:22] For wisdom, which is the worker of all things, taught me: for in her is an understanding spirit holy, one only, manifold, subtil, lively, clear, undefiled, plain, not subject to hurt, loving the thing that is good quick, which cannot be letted, ready to do good,

[Wisdom 8:20] Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.

[Wisdom 14:24] They kept neither lives nor marriages any longer undefiled: but either one slew another traiterously, or grieved him by adultery.

[2 Maccabees 7:40] So this man died undefiled, and put his whole trust in the Lord.

[2 Maccabees 14:36] Therefore now, O holy Lord of all holiness, keep this house ever undefiled, which lately was cleansed, and stop every unrighteous mouth.

[2 Maccabees 15:34] So every man praised toward the heaven the glorious Lord, saying, Blessed be he that hath kept his own place undefiled.​

The verses shown above are examples taken from the KJV. The use of the word "undefiled" does not imply that lawful marital relations are wicked. Even a lawfully married woman was accounted "unclean" at various times and also following the birth of a child.

[Leviticus 12:2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

[Leviticus 15:18] The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

[Leviticus 15:19] And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

[Leviticus 15:25] And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean.

[Leviticus 15:33] And of her that is sick of her flowers, and of him that hath an issue, of the man, and of the woman, and of him that lieth with her that is unclean.

[Mark 7:25] For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:​

The above verses are also from the KJV.

In the holy scriptures virginity is a state of purity. It may be physical and moral in nature. The ancient churches proclaim Blessed Mary as ever virgin primarily to emphasise her purity in life and morals the idea of chaste life within her marriage to saint Joseph is secondary even though it is important. If prurient curiosity drives some to assume otherwise then let them explain their prurience. For the faithful this matter was settled in the early centuries of the Church's history.

Not ONE of those says ANYTHING about Mary being a PERPETUAL virgin ..... (most of them were written before Mary died)

Not ONE of those says ANYTHING about how the loving mutual sharing of marital intimacies "DEFILES" the wife but not the husband..... not ONE THING about how evil God is for commanding such intimate sharing before the Fall and thus God is responsibile for Eve being DEFILED before the Fall.

Just diversions..... evasions.....



See posts 130, 132, 137, 154, 157, 164, 167, 206.



- Josiah




.

 

[Rens]

Defiled was only when you married another and then returned to the first. Maybe it had to do with purification.

Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present*Him*to the Lord

 

[psalms 91]

There was a puirification time that had to be fulfilled

 

[Pedrito]

I thank MoreCoffee for reposting (posted Post 205 on Page 21) the information he had presented in a former post. I came to this post late, and had not had time to review all 200-odd posts.

I’m not sure if the references to Mary’s perpetual virginity given by MoreCoffee constitute a complete set for the time period (I only requested the first three), but all bar the proevangelion of James are actually quite late in post-apostolic terms. (Around 248 AD, around 354 AD, around 360 AD and around 374 AD.) A lot can happen in 100 years. 100 years ago, what were cars like? What were planes like? TV? Mobile phones? Electronic games? The internet? Were traffic lights common? What about ball point pens? Sticky tape? Post It Notes? The list goes on.

All the dates mentioned are more than 100 years after the apostles.

But what about the proevangelion of James, dated by MoreCoffee to around 120 AD or earlier? Well, Origen (Origin) is apparently the first “church father” to mention it, and he apparently deemed it dubious.

It would seem that, like most post-apostolic theological development, the supposed perpetual virginity of Mary has the hallmarks of being a devising of Man.

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION], Origin is not a Church Father. He is an early Church writer.

 

[Pedrito]

I suspect that Lämmchen, despite my statements to the contrary, might consider that I might have been singling her out in some threads for particular attention.

Maybe this will balance the scales.

In Post #211 on Page 22, MoreCoffee supplied a number of quotes in response to a Question from PezGirl73 in Post # 210 on Page 21:

Then why would Joseph having sex with her defile her?

Let’s have a closer look.

[Psalms 119:1] Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
[Song of Solomon 5:2] I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.
[Song of Solomon 6:9] My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.
[Hebrews 7:26] For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
[Hebrews 13:4] Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
[James 1:27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
[1 Peter 1:4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

And some apocryphal quotes I won’t list.

He then said:

The verses shown above are examples taken from the KJV. The use of the word "undefiled" does not imply that lawful marital relations are wicked. Even a lawfully married woman was accounted "unclean" at various times and also following the birth of a child.

He then supplied some quotes from Leviticus to prove his point, and a strange one from Mark.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, it would seem that MoreCoffee has shot himself in the foot.

He clearly established that the marriage bed is not a source of defilement.

And since he used the terms “undefiled”, “unclean” and “not wicked” synonymously, he moreover established that a woman having her normal period is defiled, even if a virgin.

So I guess the Roman Catholic Church, and other perpetual-virgin churches, must also teach that Mary never ever had a period.


I don’t remember seeing that mentioned anywhere.