A 'no vote' is a vote for the 'other guy'?

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Go on, vote for Hillary Clinton ... you know you want to

;)
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It's like they say in virtually every election -- NOBODY ever finds a candidate that they agree 100% with. If you can find someone that supports 70-80% of our issues, that's probably as good as you're ever going to find it. To refuse to vote for someone because their thinking is not 100% allgned with our own is pretty foolish.

I can't argue with that. The trouble is what to do if you should find that you disagree with both candidates on a majority of issues, or for some other reason find both candidates sufficiently offensive in ways that overcome the fact you might agree with them on some things.

Using an analogy and comparing agreement with candidates to ingredients in a dish, if there's one or two things in the dish you dislike you may decide to order it anyway and pick out the bits you don't want. I've done this a few times myself. But what if you've got a dish that's just about exactly to your liking except for the fact it comes mixed with fresh dog faeces? You wouldn't just pick out the nasty bits, you'd order something else.

Regarding the "derisive" candidates, it is a matter of perception -- which usually is something created by the leftist mass media. Hillary certainly IS derisive because of her criminal background and the horrific performance she gave as secretary of state and everything else she has done. Even most Dems (most of who will vote for her anyway -- if they show up at the polls) do not like her and there is a pretty good number of them who are switching to Trump.

I actually said divisive rather than derisive. Hillary is the kind of candidate who appeals to the hardcore Dems but, as a rule, not to even moderate Republicans, and it appears there are a fair few Dems who won't vote for her. Likewise Trump seems like a character who appeals to diehard Repubs but not to Dems at all, and it appears there are many Repubs who won't vote Trump.

Her record, itself, disqualifies her from even running for president. But there she is, with the coddling press, getting the nomination after performing in the same manner that makes her so derisive in the first place -- rigging the system so that she automatically got the nomination over Sanders.

You're preaching to the converted here. I have no time for Hillary at all. I just remain to be convinced that Trump would be any better.

As for Trump, he speaks loudly and boldly. And, based mostly on that, the mass media has portrayed him as some sort of monster. But, getting back to the percentage of issues that a candidate might agree with us on, look at the points he is running on....

He is for stopping illegal immigration, which is ruining our economy, increasing our drug problem, paving the way for terrorists to sneak through, etc. He is for supporting our veterans with proper health care through the VA. He is for nominating solid, conservative supreme court justices who will act based on the intentions of our constitution, he is for bringing jobs back to the USA and creating a much stronger economy for the nation. He is in favor of a massive rebuild of our military, which Hillary & Obama have virtually dismantled, etc.

I could go on & on. But I hope you already get my point. There is very little that Trump is running on that would not be highly supported by most sober, patriotic American voters.

On the face of it at least Hillary appears to be saying much the same things. Most candidates will promise to reduce illegal immigration, it's just a question of what they do about it. Since, by definition, illegal immigrants don't go through the formal process it's hard to know who they are, where they are, and how many of them there are. And if someone can slip into the country through a tunnel or with a little help from a coyote it's easy to see how they can bring drugs or worse with them.

Your statement about "most sober, patriotic American voters" doesn't really add anything given that probably 30% of voters would vote for a turnip if it wore Democrat colors and another 30% would vote for a turnip if it wore Republican colors. It does little more than say "right thinking people agree with me" - it's no surprise that you think your stance is correct because as a rule few people hold a viewpoint they consider to be wrong. It's just that millions of Americans who would vote Hillary would disagree, probably using similar terms to suggest that most sober, patriotic American voters would support her progressive agenda.

And anyone, who actually does support those values, and refuses to vote for Trump simply because he is loud and bold -- is directly responsible for helping elect a socialist/communist loving candidate who OPPOSES all of those values.

In reality, the differences between two candidates for POTUS have probably never been more striking and well defined in our nation's history.

As far as I can see a vote for Hillary is a vote for more of the same, where a vote for Trump is like a big step into the unknown. In a way a vote for Trump is not entirely unlike a vote for Brexit - a vote to say we want something else even if we don't yet know what something else looks like or where it will take us.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Using an analogy and comparing agreement with candidates to ingredients in a dish, if there's one or two things in the dish you dislike you may decide to order it anyway and pick out the bits you don't want. I've done this a few times myself. But what if you've got a dish that's just about exactly to your liking except for the fact it comes mixed with fresh dog faeces? You wouldn't just pick out the nasty bits, you'd order something else.


That's a very useful and helpful analogy. I probably disagree with Trump 10-20% of the time. I disagree with Clinton maybe 90% of the time. I suspect it is likely Trump will appoint good Supreme Court judges (important to me) and I'm absolutely certain Clinton will appoint horrible ones. But the "ingredients" aside - both have something rotten, poisonous in their "dish" that makes them disqualified, unacceptable, something to push away and avoid. IMO, Trump is a crazy, egomaniac, loose-cannon who admits he can't control his mouth and who has stated (and defended) horrible, offensive, embarrassing things. I think he's entirely unpredictable and I fear him at the nuclear button. IMO, Clinton is a psychological liar, she has been declared to be an "extemely poor security risk" (which alone disqualifies her from this office), one who likely should be in prison, and one who shows profound disrespect for women. Even if I agreed with Trump 100% of the time, I could not vote for him. It's NOT a case of the one I least disagree with..... it's a case of two EVILS.

I WANT to vote for Trump (if only for those court appointments)..... he's given every reason why I can't. Same for Clinton.
 
Last edited:

PezGirl73

Active member
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Messages
43
Age
51
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
You guys have seen the meme with Voldemory and Delores Umbrage, right? That about sums up my thoughts on this election.

The people against Umbrage want me to vote for Voldemort so Umbrage doesn't get control and vice versa.

Clinton and Trump play for the same team, and it's not the team I root for.
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,562
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
Got embroiled in a conversation the other day that was interesting. There seems to be this idea among Conservative Evangelicals that if one 'sits out' a Presidential race, that is automatically a vote for the 'other guy'. Somehow, voting is a Christian ideal, especially voting Republican. I was a registered Republican before moving to Canada. I'm not able to vote in this election, but if I were, I would be 'sitting out' the Presidential vote. I would only be voting for my congressmen/women, and at the state/local level, and for whatever ballot measures came up. Somehow that raised the hackles of every God-fearing Republican Christian on the planet. I was an idiot, a fool, stupid, supported ISIS, everything! The kicker always seemed to be that 'not voting' for Trump is a 'vote' for Billary.

But here's the thing. If I were a God-fearing Democrat, wouldn't it make sense to say that a 'no vote' for Billary is a 'vote' for Trump? But that never seems to come up. Ftr, I would have voted for Sanders, if he were the nominee.

What you are describing is a form of mental coercion designed to play on a person's sensitivity to group or herd think. It reinforces the following ideas:

1) There are only 2 "real" or "viable" candidates. You must choose between them. Anything other is a "wasted vote" or, as you said "a vote for the other guy". This alone is enough to sway the majority of the public.
2) An overstatement (by way over-emphasis) of the power, authority and importance of the President of the USA in a Republic
3) As an extension of number 2 - the general but unstated idea of a political Messiah - who will save the wor..(country) from all it's woes. The fact that he or she may be backed by some institutions directly responsible for some of those woes and that he or she will likely serve those backers after elected no matter what is said frequently doesn't seem to matter to much of the general public.
4) Exercising "freedom" - your civic duty - choose your overlords...ahem...servants who are the wisest and will serve you best.

In the end, you will still pay taxes, you may still be drafted, you may still be the target of foreigners simply because of the leader's decision(s)(years, even decades down the line), and you(your children/grandchildren), not them, will pay dearest for their mistakes.
 

Highlander

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
214
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
On the face of it at least Hillary appears to be saying much the same things. Most candidates will promise to reduce illegal immigration, it's just a question of what they do about it. Since, by definition, illegal immigrants don't go through the formal process it's hard to know who they are, where they are, and how many of them there are. And if someone can slip into the country through a tunnel or with a little help from a coyote it's easy to see how they can bring drugs or worse with them.

Your statement about "most sober, patriotic American voters" doesn't really add anything given that probably 30% of voters would vote for a turnip if it wore Democrat colors and another 30% would vote for a turnip if it wore Republican colors. It does little more than say "right thinking people agree with me" - it's no surprise that you think your stance is correct because as a rule few people hold a viewpoint they consider to be wrong. It's just that millions of Americans who would vote Hillary would disagree, probably using similar terms to suggest that most sober, patriotic American voters would support her progressive agenda.

My stance is that of the traditional American values that the country was founded on. As such, it is not a matter of "right thinking people agree with me." The values are there and either a person supports them or they do not. I do support them. Anyone thinking otherwise is not disagreeing with me as much as they are disagreeing with those values.

Those people are likely to vote for Hillary because they, as does she and Obama, hate the principles that the nation was founded on and want to reverse that founding into a new one in their own image: socialism, complete government control, very limited rights to free speech, a disarmed population, open borders, millions of refugees that have terrorists hiding among them, an abortion in every womb, etc., etc.

As I said, the difference between the philosophies of these two candidates cannot be more striking. Trump is for moral, traditional, constitutional American values. Hillary opposes those values.

Either each voter understands these differences or they do not. But, in either case, the differences ARE very real -- and the future of the USA hangs in the balance.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
My stance is that of the traditional American values that the country was founded on. As such, it is not a matter of "right thinking people agree with me." The values are there and either a person supports them or they do not. I do support them. Anyone thinking otherwise is not disagreeing with me as much as they are disagreeing with those values.

Those people are likely to vote for Hillary because they, as does she and Obama, hate the principles that the nation was founded on and want to reverse that founding into a new one in their own image: socialism, complete government control, very limited rights to free speech, a disarmed population, open borders, millions of refugees that have terrorists hiding among them, an abortion in every womb, etc., etc.

As I said, the difference between the philosophies of these two candidates cannot be more striking. Trump is for moral, traditional, constitutional American values. Hillary opposes those values.

Either each voter understands these differences or they do not. But, in either case, the differences ARE very real -- and the future of the USA hangs in the balance.

OK, I won't argue with the concept of traditional American values that founded the nation. I'd just comment that people can disagree with them, or seek some variation, without hating the original.

The problem with two candidates who are so very divisive and so very polarising is that people on both sides are more likely to struggle with them. One might broadly agree with Trump but find his rhetoric about rounding up illegal immigrants objectionable, not least because the brutal reality is that rounding up a guesstimated 10,000,000 people or more, who may be dispersed all across the country and who are unlikely to make too many waves to highlight their presence, is impractical at best and therefore hesitate before voting for him. Likewise one may struggle with Hillary's platform even if they do believe that more gun control is required, and therefore hesitate before voting against her. (And of course the flip sides are also true, maybe someone broadly disagrees with Trump but wants someone who at least wants to do something about illegal immigration, or broadly agrees with Hillary but struggles with her views on abortion)

Using an analogy of a football field it often seems that the mainstream parties move closer to the endzones, to the point that maybe Trump represents yards 0-25 and Hillary represents 75-100, which does present something of a quandary for someone who identifies somewhere within 10 yards or so of the 50 yard line. If you identify around 55-60 the chances are you'll agree with Hillary more than Trump but maybe want a more moderate stance, likewise for someone around 40-45 will prefer Trump but want the rhetoric toned down to some degree.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Here is the thing, the principles this country was founded on should not be changed, that is part of the reasoon our country is going downhill
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Here is the thing, the principles this country was founded on should not be changed, that is part of the reasoon our country is going downhill

Even that doesn't have to be true. The principles the country was founded on should be referenced to make sure things aren't drifting and there should be all sorts of checks and balances in place to make sure that things like the Constitution aren't messed without very substantial bipartisan support. On the other hand it's always possible that historic values cease to represent modern needs, in which case there's no reason they shouldn't be reconsidered.

Doesn't the Constitution provide a means to create new amendments? If so you've got the freedom to change the principles right there, no?
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Of course and sometimes that can be good but for the most part it isnt.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
My stance is that of the traditional American values that the country was founded on. As such, it is not a matter of "right thinking people agree with me." The values are there and either a person supports them or they do not. I do support them. Anyone thinking otherwise is not disagreeing with me as much as they are disagreeing with those values.

The 'traditional American values' the country was founded on were values of freedom from tyranny of the Crown (no offense to my friends of the Realm of England). What's commonly looked at as separation of Church and State was actually separation of State and Church. Worship as you please, or don't worship at all. Another freedom of a Democratic union (or, Republic, if you like) is the freedom to vote our conscience. All of us. The clowns that have been put forward are not fit to run the great country that is America. And I have the freedom to state that without the threat of harm hanging over my head for calling them clowns. That's another great value that America was founded on. If I don't want to vote for a clown, I don't have to. Another great freedom.

And we can respectfully disagree. Another great value that this country was founded on. In other places we'd be censored or put in prison for this conversation (or worse...)

As I said, the difference between the philosophies of these two candidates cannot be more striking. Trump is for moral, traditional, constitutional American values.

Show me.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
.
 
Last edited:

Highlander

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
214
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
OK, I won't argue with the concept of traditional American values that founded the nation. I'd just comment that people can disagree with them, or seek some variation, without hating the original.

The problem with two candidates who are so very divisive and so very polarising is that people on both sides are more likely to struggle with them. One might broadly agree with Trump but find his rhetoric about rounding up illegal immigrants objectionable, not least because the brutal reality is that rounding up a guesstimated 10,000,000 people or more, who may be dispersed all across the country and who are unlikely to make too many waves to highlight their presence, is impractical at best and therefore hesitate before voting for him. Likewise one may struggle with Hillary's platform even if they do believe that more gun control is required, and therefore hesitate before voting against her. (And of course the flip sides are also true, maybe someone broadly disagrees with Trump but wants someone who at least wants to do something about illegal immigration, or broadly agrees with Hillary but struggles with her views on abortion)

Using an analogy of a football field it often seems that the mainstream parties move closer to the endzones, to the point that maybe Trump represents yards 0-25 and Hillary represents 75-100, which does present something of a quandary for someone who identifies somewhere within 10 yards or so of the 50 yard line. If you identify around 55-60 the chances are you'll agree with Hillary more than Trump but maybe want a more moderate stance, likewise for someone around 40-45 will prefer Trump but want the rhetoric toned down to some degree.


It's really no more complicated than a simple choice: Does a person want to continue the fundamental reshaping of America into just another nation among the 100+ nations across the world and convert it into a socialist nightmare -- or does a person want to return America to her former glory by restoring the founding principles that made her the greatest nation mankind has ever known?

It really is as simple as that. After years of talking about it, we are actually now at the brink. This is a turning point in America's history because, if Hillary becomes president the transformation of the USA -- into something it was not founded as -- will likely be irreversible because the federal judges she appoints, and the supreme court justices she nominates, will dominate the nation's direction for the rest of this century.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
It's really no more complicated than a simple choice: Does a person want to continue the fundamental reshaping of America into just another nation among the 100+ nations across the world and convert it into a socialist nightmare -- or does a person want to return America to her former glory by restoring the founding principles that made her the greatest nation mankind has ever known?

It really is as simple as that. After years of talking about it, we are actually now at the brink. This is a turning point in America's history because, if Hillary becomes president the transformation of the USA -- into something it was not founded as -- will likely be irreversible because the federal judges she appoints, and the supreme court justices she nominates, will dominate the nation's direction for the rest of this century.
I agree but I see Trump as the bigger more immediate danger to us
 

MarkFL

La Villa Strangiato
Valued Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
3,221
Age
61
Location
St. Augustine, FL.
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Atheist
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
In Relationship
I agree but I see Trump as the bigger more immediate danger to us

The democrats put up what is likely the most easily beaten candidate ever, and somehow the republicans rose to the challenge managed to put up someone even worse. Go figure. :sadwavey:
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The democrats put up what is likely the most easily beaten candidate ever, and somehow the republicans rose to the challenge managed to put up someone even worse. Go figure. :sadwavey:

Being conservative and all they had to go with a crazy candidate :p
 

Rens

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
4,754
Age
54
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Pentecostal
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
In Relationship
Lol he reminds me of our weird Geert who wants all immigrants out. He even has the same haircut.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kldzNG7krD0
Act normal man!
Lol he said that to the prime minister, who said: act tasty normal yourself!
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It's really no more complicated than a simple choice: Does a person want to continue the fundamental reshaping of America into just another nation among the 100+ nations across the world and convert it into a socialist nightmare -- or does a person want to return America to her former glory by restoring the founding principles that made her the greatest nation mankind has ever known?

In many ways even this is speculation, based on the assumption that the founding principles from 240 years ago will make the country great in today's times.

Sadly the idea that "socialism is bad" is as flawed as a universal assertion as the idea that "guns are bad". If socialism were a universal good places like Venezuela would be paradise. If socialism were a universal bad places like Norway would be awful places to live.

It really is as simple as that. After years of talking about it, we are actually now at the brink. This is a turning point in America's history because, if Hillary becomes president the transformation of the USA -- into something it was not founded as -- will likely be irreversible because the federal judges she appoints, and the supreme court justices she nominates, will dominate the nation's direction for the rest of this century.

For the rest of this century? There are 84 years left in this century. Unless she finds an elixir of youth that lets her find people to appoint as justices to the Supreme Court that not only have the experience to have any credibility but can also live for another 84 years I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Hillary in the White House, I just don't like overstated rhetoric given as a reason not to vote for her. I think there are enough reasons not to vote for her without making them up.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think there are enough reasons not to vote for her without making them up.

I was thinking 'pantsuits', but, hmmm...

hillary-clinton-vs-captain-kangaroo.jpg
 

Highlander

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
214
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I agree but I see Trump as the bigger more immediate danger to us


Interesting that you would consider a man dangerous when he will build our military, secure our borders, protect our 2nd amendment, remove violent illegal aliens, etc. And equally interesting that you would support his opponent, who is anti 2nd amendment, helped create ISIS, wants completely open borders, wants to explode the number of unvetted foreigners coming into our country.

I guess we have different concepts of what is protective and what is dangerous.
 
Top Bottom