A 'no vote' is a vote for the 'other guy'?

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Got embroiled in a conversation the other day that was interesting. There seems to be this idea among Conservative Evangelicals that if one 'sits out' a Presidential race, that is automatically a vote for the 'other guy'. Somehow, voting is a Christian ideal, especially voting Republican. I was a registered Republican before moving to Canada. I'm not able to vote in this election, but if I were, I would be 'sitting out' the Presidential vote. I would only be voting for my congressmen/women, and at the state/local level, and for whatever ballot measures came up. Somehow that raised the hackles of every God-fearing Republican Christian on the planet. I was an idiot, a fool, stupid, supported ISIS, everything! The kicker always seemed to be that 'not voting' for Trump is a 'vote' for Billary.

But here's the thing. If I were a God-fearing Democrat, wouldn't it make sense to say that a 'no vote' for Billary is a 'vote' for Trump? But that never seems to come up. Ftr, I would have voted for Sanders, if he were the nominee.
 

Rens

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
4,754
Age
54
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Pentecostal
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
In Relationship
If I had to choose between those 2 I simply wouldn't vote. We have a real good christian party, but it's so tiny and most of the time I'm too lazy to take the bike and do all that effort after work to vote somewhere anyway.
 
Last edited:

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Got embroiled in a conversation the other day that was interesting. There seems to be this idea among Conservative Evangelicals that if one 'sits out' a Presidential race, that is automatically a vote for the 'other guy'. Somehow, voting is a Christian ideal, especially voting Republican. I was a registered Republican before moving to Canada. I'm not able to vote in this election, but if I were, I would be 'sitting out' the Presidential vote. I would only be voting for my congressmen/women, and at the state/local level, and for whatever ballot measures came up. Somehow that raised the hackles of every God-fearing Republican Christian on the planet. I was an idiot, a fool, stupid, supported ISIS, everything! The kicker always seemed to be that 'not voting' for Trump is a 'vote' for Billary.

But here's the thing. If I were a God-fearing Democrat, wouldn't it make sense to say that a 'no vote' for Billary is a 'vote' for Trump? But that never seems to come up. Ftr, I would have voted for Sanders, if he were the nominee.

Did you give up your citizenship? I have a friend who lives on a sailboat outside the US and she still votes.

Anyway, I agree with your OP!

With the electoral college we really aren't voting for president anyway.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I'm a permanent resident, so I can't vote either way, in Canada or the U.S.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Got embroiled in a conversation the other day that was interesting. There seems to be this idea among Conservative Evangelicals that if one 'sits out' a Presidential race, that is automatically a vote for the 'other guy'. Somehow, voting is a Christian ideal, especially voting Republican. I was a registered Republican before moving to Canada. I'm not able to vote in this election, but if I were, I would be 'sitting out' the Presidential vote. I would only be voting for my congressmen/women, and at the state/local level, and for whatever ballot measures came up. Somehow that raised the hackles of every God-fearing Republican Christian on the planet. I was an idiot, a fool, stupid, supported ISIS, everything! The kicker always seemed to be that 'not voting' for Trump is a 'vote' for Billary.

But here's the thing. If I were a God-fearing Democrat, wouldn't it make sense to say that a 'no vote' for Billary is a 'vote' for Trump? But that never seems to come up. Ftr, I would have voted for Sanders, if he were the nominee.



I'm a conservative Republican (one could call me a "tea party" Republican). And while it KILLS ME to think of Hillary as president of anything (and especially the folks she'd appoint to the Supreme Court).... while I think Hillary should be in prison rather than the White House.... while I think it is ABSURD to have a president who is an "extremely bad security risk" and therefore cannot be told anything secret..... it equally KILLS ME to think of The Donald as president..... an unstable, loose-cannon, egomaniac who admits he can't control what he says and thus is on record for some of the most offensive, stupid comments ever said. IMO, they are BOTH (rather equally) disqualified (albeit for different reasons). The only part of "lesser of two evils" I agree with is that we are dealing with EVILS here.... it's not really an issue of whom I most agree with on issues (that would be Trump, by far), it's not an issue of right and wrong, it's an issue of evil. Disqualification.


I have TRIED (I really have!) to find SOME reason to vote for Trump.... if ONLY for Supreme Court appointments. But I've found none. The national campaign has only proven he's terribly disqualified and truly dangerous and embarrassing. To vote is to endorse. I can't endorse either of these folks..... only be AMAZED that somehow our "system" has given us these two, proving there is something very, very, very wrong - something we better identify and fix before 2020.


I've left either not voting the top of the ticket (my father's choice, my wife's choice) as I think MANY will do (probably equally Republicans and Democrats perhaps cancelling each other).... or voting for some third party candidate (NONE of which is catching on or getting any attention) ONLY because I don't fear them or feel embarrassed by them and consider them personally qualified (even if I don't agree with them).


Would I be "throwing away" my vote? Well, in the sense of such doesn't have a chance, yes. But it will get registered (I hope) as a protest vote. If all the "others" get 10 or 20 percent of the vote (and I'm not sure they will), THAT will indicate many of us have noted the brokenness that resulted in these two being the primary nominees. It's the closest we have to voting, "None of the above."



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I'm a permanent resident, so I can't vote either way, in Canada or the U.S.

I get to vote in Oz, If I move to Canada I get to vote in Canada, if I move to England (UK may not be a country for long :p) I get to vote in England, and the same with Sweden. But even if I could vote in the USA I would not vote for Donald Trump. Voting for him would be like voting for Damian in the Omen ...
 

MarkFL

La Villa Strangiato
Valued Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
3,221
Age
61
Location
St. Augustine, FL.
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Atheist
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
In Relationship
Not voting is of course not the same as a vote for "the other guy." That would seem to come from a "either you're with us or against us" mindset which I've always abhorred for the simplistic thinking it is.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
I think part of it is also coming from the point of view that if you dont vote then you are not countering the vote for the other guy. It actually makes sense from this perspective
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I get to vote in Oz, If I move to Canada I get to vote in Canada, if I move to England (UK may not be a country for long :p) I get to vote in England, and the same with Sweden. But even if I could vote in the USA I would not vote for Donald Trump. Voting for him would be like voting for Damian in the Omen ...

Not necessarily so. If you move to England you don't get to cast a vote unless you become a UK citizen. If you move to the US you don't get to vote in federal elections unless you become a US citizen. I don't know about Canada but suspect it's much the same there.

Given the Boston Tea Party's rallying call was "no taxation without representation" it's rather ironic that non-citizens living and working in the US are expected to pay taxes but don't get a vote.

I struggle with the idea of voting for Trump but would still do it before voting for Hillary. As I've said before I think Trump is a narcissistic egomaniac who would be a disaster as President, but still think he'd be less of a disaster than Hillary. The appalling lack of judgment relating to the email server issue alone is enough to rule Hillary out of the running as far as any vote I might have is concerned. Trump shows spectacularly poor judgment as well but as far as I can see it's limited to saying stupid stuff rather than risking national security by bending the rules. And then there's the Clinton Foundation that doesn't seem to be out of general chatter for very long these days either.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think part of it is also coming from the point of view that if you dont vote then you are not countering the vote for the other guy. It actually makes sense from this perspective

True, one person who doesn't show up to vote for A means that B needs one fewer vote to gain a majority.

I must admit I still chuckle a little at the idea that a vote for a third party is a vote for someone else. Republicans will say a vote for Gary Johnson (I use him as he seems to be the most prominent third party candidate) is effectively a vote for Hillary and Democrats will say a vote for Gary Johnson is effectively a vote for Trump. But if I wasn't going to vote for Trump or Hillary anyway, it's neither of those things. Someone who would ordinarily vote for Trump but votes Johnson does arguably split the anti-Hillary vote, and likewise someone who would ordinarily vote Hillary but votes Johnson arguably splits the anti-Trump vote, but anyone who had concluded they couldn't support either of the primary two candidates isn't effectively endorsing either of them by voting for a third party.

I'd be inclined to urge anyone seriously considering not voting at all because they can't support either Trump or Hillary in good conscience to choose a third party candidate that best matches their viewpoints and vote for them. Perhaps if the third parties gain enough support, even if only from disaffected voters who would otherwise not show up at all, perhaps the stranglehold of the two main parties can be broken. It would be really nice if a country with over 300 million people to choose from could put up candidates more inspiring than Trump and Hillary.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Not voting is of course not the same as a vote for "the other guy." That would seem to come from a "either you're with us or against us" mindset which I've always abhorred for the simplistic thinking it is.

Very much. One lady responded with something along the lines that I "needed a history course". (?) I responded that I learned in 'history course' that my voting rights included the right not to, according to my conscience.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Not necessarily so. If you move to England you don't get to cast a vote unless you become a UK citizen. If you move to the US you don't get to vote in federal elections unless you become a US citizen. I don't know about Canada but suspect it's much the same there.

Given the Boston Tea Party's rallying call was "no taxation without representation" it's rather ironic that non-citizens living and working in the US are expected to pay taxes but don't get a vote.

I struggle with the idea of voting for Trump but would still do it before voting for Hillary. As I've said before I think Trump is a narcissistic egomaniac who would be a disaster as President, but still think he'd be less of a disaster than Hillary. The appalling lack of judgment relating to the email server issue alone is enough to rule Hillary out of the running as far as any vote I might have is concerned. Trump shows spectacularly poor judgment as well but as far as I can see it's limited to saying stupid stuff rather than risking national security by bending the rules. And then there's the Clinton Foundation that doesn't seem to be out of general chatter for very long these days either.

I am a UK Citizen, a Canadian citizen, a Swedish citizen, and an Australian citizen.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I am a UK Citizen, a Canadian citizen, a Swedish citizen, and an Australian citizen.

In which case scratch what I just said :)

How did you end up with so many citizenships?
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I am a UK Citizen, a Canadian citizen, a Swedish citizen, and an Australian citizen.

I feel a sequel in the works - 'Citizen Coffee' :D
 

Highlander

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
214
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Got embroiled in a conversation the other day that was interesting. There seems to be this idea among Conservative Evangelicals that if one 'sits out' a Presidential race, that is automatically a vote for the 'other guy'. Somehow, voting is a Christian ideal, especially voting Republican. I was a registered Republican before moving to Canada. I'm not able to vote in this election, but if I were, I would be 'sitting out' the Presidential vote. I would only be voting for my congressmen/women, and at the state/local level, and for whatever ballot measures came up. Somehow that raised the hackles of every God-fearing Republican Christian on the planet. I was an idiot, a fool, stupid, supported ISIS, everything! The kicker always seemed to be that 'not voting' for Trump is a 'vote' for Billary.

But here's the thing. If I were a God-fearing Democrat, wouldn't it make sense to say that a 'no vote' for Billary is a 'vote' for Trump? But that never seems to come up. Ftr, I would have voted for Sanders, if he were the nominee.

Howdy,

If you would have voted for Sanders, that certainly makes you a Democrat. In any event, if a supporter of one party refuses to vote for that party's candidate, it is addition by subtraction for that candidate's opponent. No matter how the math is done, removing a vote from one candidate is very effectively a vote FOR the opponent.

If you are a Republican -- and fail to vote for Trump -- you ARE, in effect, allowing Hillary to go one vote up on Trump by your very absence from the voting booth. As such, a voter in that situation is automatically supporting Hillary's socialist agenda. That may not be their intention, but it is the physical effect that matters as far as reality is concerned.

About 5 million Repub voters did this in 2012 by refusing to vote for the inept Romney. This absence of votes, in effect, added 5 million votes to Obama's side.

In the upcoming election, Repubs who have temper tantrums by refusing to vote for Trump, are not only helping elect Hillary, but will also be responsible for what she will do to the Supreme Court. Imagine having 7 or 8 Ruth Bader Ginsbergs stacked on the court. Socialism/communism would permeate the USA for the rest of this century -- and perhaps forever -- and the founding principles of the USA will have been bastardized into opposing principles, including extreme limits on free speech, losing our right to bear arms, etc.

Other negative effects would also happen, such as having hundreds of additional, extreme leftist federal judges. And illegal aliens would be granted citizenship simply because the Dems are aware that most of them will vote for Democrat candidates. Adding 12 million Democrat votes, by illegal aliens, to the presidential election, would make it virtually impossible for a Republican candidate to ever win the presidency again.

If this is the kind of United States of America that these hardheaded Repubs want to help usher in, they they will get their wish if Hillary is allowed to infest the White House.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
A vote FOR Trump or Clinton is a vote FOR them, an endorsement, an affirmation. I can't do that. For either.

It may be that somehow, the Republican Party has nominated a man that many Republicans CANNOT endorse - perhaps many multiples of the number who could not vote for Romney - and perhaps Trump will use that as an excuse for why he - the Sainted One - was stolen the election. But I think the problem lies elsewhere. It is stunning to me - and disturbing - that we had 17 Republicans running, most of whom were highly qualified, uber-conservatives, experienced folks whom every Republican COULD have supported. Some were "tea party" favorites (such as Rubio and Cruz, both promoted and elected by the "tea party" movement within the Republican party). Perhaps because it soon became Trump vs. the World..... and Trump "tapped" negative anger against The World, he came out on top - I don't know. But we ended up with a disqualified man. One I think MANY Republicans in good conscience cannot endorse. I realize Hannity can't understand that, but .... And of course Trump - who may loose in the biggest landslide since '32 and may cause the Republicans to loose both houses with him - will blame some anti-Trump conspiracy and Obama rigging the election for all this: and the "anti-the-world" folks will feel vindicated. What a mess. What a sorrow.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Howdy,

If you would have voted for Sanders, that certainly makes you a Democrat. In any event, if a supporter of one party refuses to vote for that party's candidate, it is addition by subtraction for that candidate's opponent. No matter how the math is done, removing a vote from one candidate is very effectively a vote FOR the opponent.

A vote for Sanders would have made me a registered Republican who voted his conscience. It wouldn't stop me from voting the party line in Congressional and state/local elections, because (where I used to live) those candidates were worth their salt. Here's a question, though - how many actually bother voting for state leaders, state supreme court and district court judges, county clerks, county board, etc? How many actually read ballot measures? The last time I was able to vote, it was in Michigan. There were two measures that ha a LOT to do with what's happening there. One had to do with blocking a privately funded border crossing, when a US/Canada sponsored bridge is already in the works (You know, stopping that guy from building another bridge next to the Ambassador so he can't make any more billions?). That was on the ballot. Another had to do with giving the Governor the power to appoint an emergency financial manager for the city of Detroit. ALL of that happened because people voted. I wonder how many didn't bother. And I wonder how many are un-bothered by that.

If you are a Republican -- and fail to vote for Trump -- you ARE, in effect, allowing Hillary to go one vote up on Trump by your very absence from the voting booth. As such, a voter in that situation is automatically supporting Hillary's socialist agenda. That may not be their intention, but it is the physical effect that matters as far as reality is concerned.

I doubt that Hillary really has a socialist agenda, or any agenda at all. And, besides, those pant-suits?? :scared: Neither does Trump. Both equally unqualified. At least Sanders declared himself where he stands on issues. You knew going in what you were getting. And to know that his own party played partisan politics with him is just sickening.

About 5 million Repub voters did this in 2012 by refusing to vote for the inept Romney. This absence of votes, in effect, added 5 million votes to Obama's side.

Romney was actually not inept. His campaign strategies sucked. I voted for him with pleasure because he was actually what the party needed - a good, sensible moderate. Was that a throw-away vote? Some may think so.

In the upcoming election, Repubs who have temper tantrums by refusing to vote for Trump, are not only helping elect Hillary, but will also be responsible for what she will do to the Supreme Court. Imagine having 7 or 8 Ruth Bader Ginsbergs stacked on the court. Socialism/communism would permeate the USA for the rest of this century -- and perhaps forever -- and the founding principles of the USA will have been bastardized into opposing principles, including extreme limits on free speech, losing our right to bear arms, etc.

Wow... Just wow. Not sure what to say.

Other negative effects would also happen, such as having hundreds of additional, extreme leftist federal judges. And illegal aliens would be granted citizenship simply because the Dems are aware that most of them will vote for Democrat candidates. Adding 12 million Democrat votes, by illegal aliens, to the presidential election, would make it virtually impossible for a Republican candidate to ever win the presidency again.

Hate to break it to most people, but the days of "It's a great day in america" wheat field, feel good, flag waving, Reagan politics are done. There will never be another Ronald Reagan. And as shameful as that is, it's the truth. But we can do better than Trump. And we should. Don't mark the box. Just. Don't. Do it.

Cheers! :)
 
Last edited:

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Howdy,

If you would have voted for Sanders, that certainly makes you a Democrat. In any event, if a supporter of one party refuses to vote for that party's candidate, it is addition by subtraction for that candidate's opponent. No matter how the math is done, removing a vote from one candidate is very effectively a vote FOR the opponent.

If you are a Republican -- and fail to vote for Trump -- you ARE, in effect, allowing Hillary to go one vote up on Trump by your very absence from the voting booth. As such, a voter in that situation is automatically supporting Hillary's socialist agenda. That may not be their intention, but it is the physical effect that matters as far as reality is concerned.

I won't argue that every Republican who refuses to vote for Trump makes it easier to elect Hillary, simply by creating a situation where she requires one fewer vote to gain an overall majority (I know it's not quite that simple with the Electoral College and all that, but if you live in a state that might go either way it could matter if it's that close). That said it's a pretty lame situation if either party believes they can put forward as undesirable a candidate as they choose and their registered voters are somehow obliged to vote for someone they just can't back with a clear conscience.

It's sad that both major parties have put forward candidates who are so very divisive. I rather get the impression there are many voters on both sides who struggle with the candidate their team has thrust upon them, and probably many voters on both sides who will vote for their side's candidate for no reason other than to keep The Other Guy out.
 

Highlander

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
214
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I won't argue that every Republican who refuses to vote for Trump makes it easier to elect Hillary, simply by creating a situation where she requires one fewer vote to gain an overall majority (I know it's not quite that simple with the Electoral College and all that, but if you live in a state that might go either way it could matter if it's that close). That said it's a pretty lame situation if either party believes they can put forward as undesirable a candidate as they choose and their registered voters are somehow obliged to vote for someone they just can't back with a clear conscience.

It's sad that both major parties have put forward candidates who are so very divisive. I rather get the impression there are many voters on both sides who struggle with the candidate their team has thrust upon them, and probably many voters on both sides who will vote for their side's candidate for no reason other than to keep The Other Guy out.


It's like they say in virtually every election -- NOBODY ever finds a candidate that they agree 100% with. If you can find someone that supports 70-80% of our issues, that's probably as good as you're ever going to find it. To refuse to vote for someone because their thinking is not 100% allgned with our own is pretty foolish.

Regarding the "derisive" candidates, it is a matter of perception -- which usually is something created by the leftist mass media. Hillary certainly IS derisive because of her criminal background and the horrific performance she gave as secretary of state and everything else she has done. Even most Dems (most of who will vote for her anyway -- if they show up at the polls) do not like her and there is a pretty good number of them who are switching to Trump.

Her record, itself, disqualifies her from even running for president. But there she is, with the coddling press, getting the nomination after performing in the same manner that makes her so derisive in the first place -- rigging the system so that she automatically got the nomination over Sanders.

As for Trump, he speaks loudly and boldly. And, based mostly on that, the mass media has portrayed him as some sort of monster. But, getting back to the percentage of issues that a candidate might agree with us on, look at the points he is running on....

He is for stopping illegal immigration, which is ruining our economy, increasing our drug problem, paving the way for terrorists to sneak through, etc. He is for supporting our veterans with proper health care through the VA. He is for nominating solid, conservative supreme court justices who will act based on the intentions of our constitution, he is for bringing jobs back to the USA and creating a much stronger economy for the nation. He is in favor of a massive rebuild of our military, which Hillary & Obama have virtually dismantled, etc.

I could go on & on. But I hope you already get my point. There is very little that Trump is running on that would not be highly supported by most sober, patriotic American voters.

And anyone, who actually does support those values, and refuses to vote for Trump simply because he is loud and bold -- is directly responsible for helping elect a socialist/communist loving candidate who OPPOSES all of those values.

In reality, the differences between two candidates for POTUS have probably never been more striking and well defined in our nation's history.
 
Top Bottom