Islam

[tango]

Then keep it thta way and lets talk Islam, the facts without any slant. They kill Christians, they want to convert everyone or ensalve or kill them, they are an enemy of the cross. I will not be PC where this is concerned as they come against Christianity

With respect Bill, saying "Muslims kill Christians" makes no more sense than saying "Christians abuse children". You can find enough priests over the years who have abused children to demonstrate a pattern and yet it's clearly absurd to suggest all Christians, or even a majority of Christians, abuse children.

In the same way it's silly to act as if Muslims are an amorphous mass who think alike. I've lived and worked among Muslims and not once have any of them attempted to harm me. My Muslim neighbors invited me into their home when it was cold and I'd locked myself out of my house.

I don't believe their beliefs are theologically sound but it's silly to pretend that anyone who follows Islam must be a violent killer.

 

[tango]

I'd like to comment further but frankly after two minutes of the video I found the style sufficiently irritating that I gave up. This modern notion that everything has to be presented as a video to watch gets really tedious, a transcript of the useful aspects of it would be just fine.

 

[Romanos]

But the Quran is too the inspired word of God in my opinion.

Peace

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Can a Christian look to the Quran for answers as well?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Can a Christian look to the Quran for answers as well?

I find that we are instructed to fear nothing but GOD, yet it is fear that keeps most from finding the answer to the question you have posed.

I consider myself a Christian, indeed, I am a Christian. But I refuse to have my perception skewed by the words of others. In other words, I learn for myself.

And what is absolutely irrefutable to me is that regardless of religion or sect, the Quran is profitable for the direction of man by the will of GOD. It does not refute the anointed of GOD, the resurrection, or the second coming of Jesus the Christ, states the same historicity as the Bible, and expounds the very same morals, motives, and reasons as the Bible.

To me it reads similar to the Old Testament and is focused on the law of God, or the direction of man under God.

It does have verses that can and have been misinterpreted, but so does the Bible, as is evident by the many different sects of Christianity.

Again, I base what I know of Islam (submission to God) on the core text(Quran), just like I base what I know is true about Christianity on the reading and comprehension of the Bible.

I know this is a touchy subject to most here, and in no way condone the atrocities done to mankind by those in great error. I do contend however, that said error is stemmed from pride, greed, and fear, and not from the unbiased reading of the Quran or Bible.

Does the Bible tell us to not inquire of the truth? Or does it tell us to seek out what is true and right and to also proclaim it and live by it?

I could be mistaken, but I believe anyone would have trouble finding any verse in either book that teaches us directly, to avoid other core religious writings.

Sorry, may have gotten a little wordy as it is a subject I am passionate about.

I humbly and sincerely hope that any who are genuinely curious will at least consider that these books are for the same purpose, and that they will not let fear guide them. I'm sure some may worry that reading the Quran will make you not Christian somehow. So I'll keep this part short; I was atheist, then I wasn't. I read the Old Testament then the Quran then prior to finishing the Quran I began reading the New Testament. My point is that I set here at this time insisting that I am Christian, and though I fear our GOD due to my own hypocrisy, I do not fear that the Quran has weakened my faith or deterred me from the narrow path shown by the Christ.

Lastly; a great misconception about Islam seems to be that they regard Jesus as a mere prophet. This simply is not the case. He is repeatedly referred to as the perfect messenger of God among other things, which is pretty close to the anointed of God or Christ.

With humility, peace

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[MoreCoffee]

It is possible that providentially God worked through Mohammed to subdue the polytheism of the descendants of Ishmael and they took their newfound monotheism and went conquering the lands surrounding. That's a possibility. More likely is that Islam arose as a combination of Arian heresy and the claims of a man to be a prophet. Mohammed did not arise in a vacuum. His own history suggests he had considerable information about Rabbinic Judaism and Arab cultures that absorbed Arian and Ebionite heresies.

 

[Stravinsk]

I watched the first video. You mentioned that it can clear up misconceptions.

Which misconceptions did you think it cleared up?

Secondly, why do you think that this is important - unless you think that the Quran has value to you personally or to the people as a whole?

Islam, to me - is a revealed religion, much like other religions in certain respects and can contain elements of truth. Most religions do have this aspect - or they would be universally rejected as nonsense. The problems come in with blind faith and lack of discernment for the precepts that are questionable that are also included in their so called holy texts - for which the obvious truthful elements are used to bolster as a whole.

Ie:

"The Quran is true because it says this good thing"

much like

"The Bible is true because it says this good thing"

A thought from the Qur'an

2:161-163 Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting, - on them is God's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind; 162 They will abide therein: Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will respite be their (lot). 163 And your God is One God: There is no God but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

This, to me, is a good example of religious nonsense. I do not know the context of the quote above - but - taken by itself it is nonsense. "Having Faith" makes 0 sense because "Faith" is a mental attitude that is not meant to stand alone - it applies to *something*. One can have "blind faith" in a religious book - that is faith - and the object is the religious book. One can have experienced Faith in how electricity works - negative or positive - it is still faith in the working of electricity based on a degree of experience. One can have Faith that the sun will rise tomorrow because life experience shows it rises every single day.

Taking it out of context and treating it like a virtue - when it has no object to which it is applied is nonsense.

 

[Lamb]

Islam does not believe that Jesus was crucified. That in itself proves it is not on the same grounds as Christianity. They have no Savior. They don't have the true forgiveness of sins because they reject the Gospel message.

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Stravinsk, I do not spend much time with the Quran. I tried reading it but it was too boring.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Islam does not believe that Jesus was crucified. That in itself proves it is not on the same grounds as Christianity. They have no Savior. They don't have the true forgiveness of sins because they reject the Gospel message.

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)

That quote is a testament to the nature of Christ. Indeed the Christ is eternal and wasn't killed, though the literal body of vessel that was the physical manifestation of the Christ was crucified.

It isn't saying that there was/ is no Christ, it was saying that the Christ is eternal and spiritual, cannot be killed, and those who think they could veer the will of God in any way are but fools.

My opinion, though based on both books and others, and other things.

Humbly,

Peace

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[Lamb]

That quote is a testament to the nature of Christ. Indeed the Christ is eternal and wasn't killed, though the literal body of vessel that was the physical manifestation of the Christ was crucified.

It isn't saying that there was/ is no Christ, it was saying that the Christ is eternal and spiritual, cannot be killed, and those who think they could veer the will of God in any way are but fools.

My opinion, though based on both books and others, and other things.

Humbly,

Peace

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They don't believe that the true Savior died for the forgiveness of their sins. They don't have the one true God since No ONE can come to God except through Jesus the SAVIOR. If they DENY Jesus they Deny the one true God.

 

[popsthebuilder]

They don't believe that the true Savior died for the forgiveness of their sins. They don't have the one true God since No ONE can come to God except through Jesus the SAVIOR. If they DENY Jesus they Deny the one true God.

Good thing they don't deny Jesus then.

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[Stravinsk]

Islam does not believe that Jesus was crucified. That in itself proves it is not on the same grounds as Christianity. They have no Savior. They don't have the true forgiveness of sins because they reject the Gospel message.

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)

That quote is a testament to the nature of Christ. Indeed the Christ is eternal and wasn't killed, though the literal body of vessel that was the physical manifestation of the Christ was crucified.

It isn't saying that there was/ is no Christ, it was saying that the Christ is eternal and spiritual, cannot be killed, and those who think they could veer the will of God in any way are but fools.

My opinion, though based on both books and others, and other things.

Humbly,

Peace

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Taken at face value without the hefty (and reaching, imo) apologetic, that is exactly what that verse from the Quran says - no one killed Christ, no one crucified him. So the "likeness" of Christ "was put on another man" that they killed? Meh. If that is to be believed, then these aren't:

Matthew 17:23
Matthew 21:38
Matthew 21:39
Matthew 16:21
John 2:19

 

[popsthebuilder]

Taken at face value without the hefty (and reaching, imo) apologetic, that is exactly what that verse from the Quran says - no one killed Christ, no one crucified him. So the "likeness" of Christ "was put on another man" that they killed? Meh. If that is to be believed, then these aren't:

Matthew 17:23
Matthew 21:38
Matthew 21:39
Matthew 16:21
John 2:19

If you take it at face value with literal interpretation then I have no doubt you are right. But we know that literal interpretation was looked down upon in both the Old Testament in verses condemning or chastising the Jew, and by the words of the Christ.

Generally, to me, you come off as opened minded and unbiased; can you find, within yourself, the real reason you aren't being your usual self when it comes to this topic?

I won't assume, and am not saying you are wrong.

I'm sorry you found my post to be that of poor apologetics. I assure you my conclusion was come to with an opened mind and an utter lack of preconception.
I can't prove that though, and don't expect any to just believe me.

Peace

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[MoreCoffee]

They don't believe that the true Savior died for the forgiveness of their sins. They don't have the one true God since No ONE can come to God except through Jesus the SAVIOR. If they DENY Jesus they Deny the one true God.

Many Christians do not apply such rigorous logic to Judaism; they say "The Jews are still God's chosen people, beloved for the fathers' sake", yet Judaism teaches that Jesus not only is not God but that he was a blasphemer and a charlatan. Islam gives some respect to the Lord while Judaism teaches no respect. It is peculiar how much anti-Islamic sentiment runs through religious commentary in some forms of evangelicalism while so little anti-Judaism commentary exists in the same circles.

 

[Lamb]

If you take it at face value with literal interpretation then I have no doubt you are right. But we know that literal interpretation was looked down upon in both the Old Testament in verses condemning or chastising the Jew, and by the words of the Christ.

Generally, to me, you come off as opened minded and unbiased; can you find, within yourself, the real reason you aren't being your usual self when it comes to this topic?

I won't assume, and am not saying you are wrong.

I'm sorry you found my post to be that of poor apologetics. I assure you my conclusion was come to with an opened mind and an utter lack of preconception.
I can't prove that though, and don't expect any to just believe me.

Peace

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This isn't about having an open mind or being unbiased. It's about what scripture tells us concerning God and those who turn away from Him (the Savior). John 14:16 explicitly tells us no one comes to the Father except through Jesus who is our Savior. Those who deny the Savior deny the one true God. They then believe in a false god with a religion that cannot save. Islam won't save anyone.

 

[Lamb]

Good thing they don't deny Jesus then.

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They don't deny that a person named Jesus existed, but they deny Him as the Savior who died for their sins and they are forgiven. So they do deny Him.

 

[popsthebuilder]

They do not deny that Christ is the anointed of GOD.

And thinking that all sin is forgiven regardless of action because of the death of Jesus is nonsensical gibberish that is not even in the Bible.

What you speak or is part of the great misdirection of most Christians. Did Christ atone for our sins? Yes. Does that mean we are saved while in vain blind error? No. The Salvation is from the example and teachings of the Christ and the adherence there of, from faith in the Word of GOD.

Really you make no sense. Generally Christians consider the man Jesus to be the utter fullness of GOD, eternally. Islam agrees that God is ever merciful, just like Christians do. They do not deny Christ, they just don't conflate a man of any sort with the eternal singular creator GOD of all existence.

Who can claim them? It's kinda hard to justifiably believe that a man who was born approximately 2000 years ago was responsible for the creation of all existence which is approximately 6 billion years old.

So no, they don't deny the Christ, they just don't have the exact same view as the erroneous hypocrite or the whore of Babylon.

Are you going to say that I deny the Christ now too? They really do not deny the Messiah, nor do I. Denying him would be going against his teachings and example and the will of God. It is the hypocrite that denies the Christ though they are too blind to see it.

Peace

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[popsthebuilder]

Why don't we use scripture and the Quran to verify our points on the topic from here on out?

Then perhaps we can have a profitable conversation instead of just accusing people of things.

Peace

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[Lamb]

I did use scripture from both (from the Holy Bible and the false Quran). They do not believe in the Christian God. Islam saves no one and should not be promoted here at all.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I did use scripture from both (from the Holy Bible and the false Quran). They do not believe in the Christian God. Islam saves no one and should not be promoted here at all.

This is "world religion"

I do not subscribe to Islam nor to any non-Christian religion. There's nothing especially odious about Islam when it is compared to Judaism or any of the heretical sects of "christianity".