Poor Theology - Declare a thing!

[tango]

This one is something of a followup to the "Who needs context anyway?" thread, based on the notion that we can declare the things we want and they will come to pass. On the face of it, the promise is there in black and white in Scripture:

Job 22:28 NKJV You will also declare a thing, And it will be established for you; So light will shine on your ways.

I've seen this one used in church as a reason for people to declare all sorts of things they wanted to happen, standing on this (seemingly) very clear promise of God in faith that what they declared would be established for them.

But, once again, let's take a step back. Is this a promise of God for us today, or a promise God made Job? Sadly the answer is option (c), neither of the above. Roll back to the beginning of the chapter and we see a different picture:

Job 22:1 NKJV Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said:

Oops. So it wasn't God speaking at all, it was Eliphaz the Temanite. So I wouldn't go standing too proudly on a promise one man made to another man however many thousand years ago it was. That would be like me offering to help a friend shift some furniture, helping him shift the furniture, only to find a totally different friend came to me 20 years later expecting to call me on my promise to help shift some furniture. Promises don't work like that.

Unfortunately it gets even worse than this. Not only was this "promise of God" made by a man to a man, it turns out God wasn't even very happy with what Eliphaz had to say at all. Let's roll forward a few chapters:

Job 42:7 NKJV And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.

Oh dear. So the people who stand on that verse as a "promise of God" are actually standing on what Eliphaz said to Job, when it's clearly recorded that God told Eliphaz off for speaking falsely.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This one is something of a followup to the "Who needs context anyway?" thread, based on the notion that we can declare the things we want and they will come to pass. On the face of it, the promise is there in black and white in Scripture:

Job 22:28 NKJV You will also declare a thing, And it will be established for you; So light will shine on your ways.

I've seen this one used in church as a reason for people to declare all sorts of things they wanted to happen, standing on this (seemingly) very clear promise of God in faith that what they declared would be established for them.

But, once again, let's take a step back. Is this a promise of God for us today, or a promise God made Job? Sadly the answer is option (c), neither of the above. Roll back to the beginning of the chapter and we see a different picture:

Job 22:1 NKJV Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said:

Oops. So it wasn't God speaking at all, it was Eliphaz the Temanite. So I wouldn't go standing too proudly on a promise one man made to another man however many thousand years ago it was. That would be like me offering to help a friend shift some furniture, helping him shift the furniture, only to find a totally different friend came to me 20 years later expecting to call me on my promise to help shift some furniture. Promises don't work like that.

Unfortunately it gets even worse than this. Not only was this "promise of God" made by a man to a man, it turns out God wasn't even very happy with what Eliphaz had to say at all. Let's roll forward a few chapters:

Job 42:7 NKJV And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.

Oh dear. So the people who stand on that verse as a "promise of God" are actually standing on what Eliphaz said to Job, when it's clearly recorded that God told Eliphaz off for speaking falsely.

I knew a man who would regularly claim he owned houses in various streets as he drove past them as part of his religious observance of the "name it and claim it" belief. Naturally enough he never owned any of them and the car he drove was repossessed when he failed to meet the payments despite his naming it and claiming it.

I may be mistaken but it seems that much of this theology harks back to E W Kenyon and the Christian Science movement's belief that the whole material world is the product of 'mortal mind' by which it was meant that all we see around us is produced by people thinking it is real (when it isn't) and this idea was taken by Kenyon and expanded in a positive way to mean that what we think is what will happen. Kenyon's views were taken up by Kenneth Hagan and Hagan's views by Copeland and so forth. Now we have dozens (maybe hundreds) of televangelists living the high life on a name it and claim it message and the enormous financial support they can get from teaching it along with the 'hundred fold blessing' idea.

It must be very attractive to a lot of people since folk like Kenneth Copeland live in mansions and fly Lear jets ...

 

[tango]

I knew a man who would regularly claim he owned houses in various streets as he drove past them as part of his religious observance of the "name it and claim it" belief. Naturally enough he never owned any of them and the car he drove was repossessed when he failed to meet the payments despite his naming it and claiming it.

I may be mistaken but it seems that much of this theology harks back to E W Kenyon and the Christian Science movement's belief that the whole material world is the product of 'mortal mind' by which it was meant that all we see around us is produced by people thinking it is real (when it isn't) and this idea was taken by Kenyon and expanded in a positive way to mean that what we think is what will happen. Kenyon's views were taken up by Kenneth Hagan and Hagan's views by Copeland and so forth. Now we have dozens (maybe hundreds) of televangelists living the high life on a name it and claim it message and the enormous financial support they can get from teaching it along with the 'hundred fold blessing' idea.

It must be very attractive to a lot of people since folk like Kenneth Copeland live in mansions and fly Lear jets ...

It seems to be little more than a pyramid scheme where you send your money to make someone else rich, trusting in their promise that someone else will make you rich.

It's part of the reason I dislike the modern concept of the tithe - a slavish adherence to giving 10% of our financial income hurts the poor, lets the rich off easy and can so easily give pastors of churches with wealthy members a sense of great entitlement. It's not even as if it's required in NT times - Paul was quite clear on that in 2Co 9:7.

 

[onlyme]

It seems to be little more than a pyramid scheme where you send your money to make someone else rich, trusting in their promise that someone else will make you rich.

It's part of the reason I dislike the modern concept of the tithe - a slavish adherence to giving 10% of our financial income hurts the poor, lets the rich off easy and can so easily give pastors of churches with wealthy members a sense of great entitlement. It's not even as if it's required in NT times - Paul was quite clear on that in 2Co 9:7.

I agree that the tithe is property an Old Testament thing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It seems to be little more than a pyramid scheme where you send your money to make someone else rich, trusting in their promise that someone else will make you rich.

It's part of the reason I dislike the modern concept of the tithe - a slavish adherence to giving 10% of our financial income hurts the poor, lets the rich off easy and can so easily give pastors of churches with wealthy members a sense of great entitlement. It's not even as if it's required in NT times - Paul was quite clear on that in 2Co 9:7.

I wonder if we'd be rich if we named ourselves rich and claimed it in this thread ... shall we experiment?

 

[tango]

I wonder if we'd be rich if we named ourselves rich and claimed it in this thread ... shall we experiment?

I wouldn't bother if I were you. Partly because that sort of thing strays too close to sorcery for me to be comfortable with it, and partly because at least one person I know is really into this stuff and despite lots of declarations they seem to struggle with ill health and lack of money. Curiously the fact their theology demonstrably doesn't work doesn't seem to concern them, I can only assume they figure they just need to try again with more faith.

 

[Lamb]

In regards to the OP, sounds like the vending machine god people have declared our Lord to be.

We have to remember that asking things from God has to be in line with His will and not just our own.

 

[tango]

In regards to the OP, sounds like the vending machine god people have declared our Lord to be.

Yep - you put in the prayers, select the product and pull the lever. If you get the wrong thing you call 1-800-BAD-PRAY to complain about it. It reminds me of what a certain serpent said in a certain garden about how "you will be like God". Even today it seems people fall for the lie that they can be like God and call all the shots.

We have to remember that asking things from God has to be in line with His will and not just our own.

Also true - we aren't God and never will be, whatever some oddball theology might claim.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wouldn't bother if I were you. Partly because that sort of thing strays too close to sorcery for me to be comfortable with it, and partly because at least one person I know is really into this stuff and despite lots of declarations they seem to struggle with ill health and lack of money. Curiously the fact their theology demonstrably doesn't work doesn't seem to concern them, I can only assume they figure they just need to try again with more faith.

Yes, I have heard that the amount and the quality of one's faith determines the success one achieves in the name-it-and-claim-it practise. I wonder if the folk who teach that would apply it to their salvation?

I think that the name it and claim it theology is all about getting money and not at all about the gospel.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here's something to give pause ...

 

[MoreCoffee]

And remember what the holy scripture says ...

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. (2 John 1:8-11 KJV)

 

[psalms 91]

I am rewally tired of so called name it and claim it, that is not what it is. It is praying and knowing Gods will in a situation and then claiming that as though it were firmly believing that God will bring it to pass. Not just turn God into a piggy bank or a wishing well. I dont know of anyone who has done that. We do believe in divine healing, prosperity but not necessarily in the sense most people think of it, it is God meeting and supplying our needs and yes a few wants as well. Talk about doctrine that is twisted and muisunderstood by people

 

[onlyme]

Up here, Name It and Claim It would sometimes be referred to as: En attente de le recevoir, il faut préciser ce que l'on désire recevoir de la part du Seigneur. (Which is a bit of a mouthful and long winded.)

 

[Hebrews 11]

I am rewally tired of so called name it and claim it, that is not what it is. It is praying and knowing Gods will in a situation and then claiming that as though it were firmly believing that God will bring it to pass. Not just turn God into a piggy bank or a wishing well. I dont know of anyone who has done that. We do believe in divine healing, prosperity but not necessarily in the sense most people think of it, it is God meeting and supplying our needs and yes a few wants as well. Talk about doctrine that is twisted and muisunderstood by people

You have to look at it from a biblical stand point.

The first question is : are all of the promises of God true or not / yes or amen?

Is God your own personal genie?

Are you asking amiss is the main issue of criticism of name and claim.

When it comes to being healed ,I would recommend grabbing all the promises in God's word and claiming them.

 

[psalms 91]

You have to look at it from a biblical stand point.

The first question is : are all of the promises of God true or not / yes or amen?

Is God your own personal genie?

Are you asking amiss is the main issue of criticism of name and claim.

When it comes to being healed ,I would recommend grabbing all the promises in God's word and claiming them.

Exactly you hang on to the promises of God always

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am rewally tired of so called name it and claim it, that is not what it is. It is praying and knowing Gods will in a situation and then claiming that as though it were firmly believing that God will bring it to pass. Not just turn God into a piggy bank or a wishing well. I dont know of anyone who has done that. We do believe in divine healing, prosperity but not necessarily in the sense most people think of it, it is God meeting and supplying our needs and yes a few wants as well. Talk about doctrine that is twisted and muisunderstood by people

It's called "Word of faith" and the idea is that one can name a thing, a blessing of some kind, and claim it from God with confidence. That's why it is called "name it and claim it" theology. The name is accurate. It reflects the theology well. So, even though your post says you know no one who has "done that", I have known many who have done it. I hope they no longer do it and remain in the faith. Some who I know who did it have subsequently abandoned the faith. The doctrine is in error and produces bad fruit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You have to look at it from a biblical stand point.

The first question is : are all of the promises of God true or not / yes or amen?

Is God your own personal genie?

Are you asking amiss is the main issue of criticism of name and claim.

When it comes to being healed ,I would recommend grabbing all the promises in God's word and claiming them.

In Christ all the promises of God are yes and amen, says the scripture (2Cor 1:20). Yet the faithful catch colds, flu, and other more serious diseases and some die in accidents. The promises of God are fulfilled in Christ and it is evident that their fulfilment awaits the resurrection and the last judgement. Thus one can have eternal life now and yet die but in the resurrection one will have eternal life and never die (John 11:25,26).

 

[psalms 91]

It's called "Word of faith" and the idea is that one can name a thing, a blessing of some kind, and claim it from God with confidence. That's why it is called "name it and claim it" theology. The name is accurate. It reflects the theology well. So, even though your post says you know no one who has "done that", I have known many who have done it. I hope they no longer do it and remain in the faith. Some who I know who did it have subsequently abandoned the faith. The doctrine is in error and produces bad fruit.

As you describe it, Yes. But the true doctrine is not in error. Either you believe the Word or you dont. If you dont you get exactly what James said you would

 

[MoreCoffee]

As you describe it, Yes. But the true doctrine is not in error. Either you believe the Word or you dont. If you dont you get exactly what James said you would

Name it and claim it for healing from disease does not work nor does name it and claim it for blessings such as becoming a pastor or receiving spiritual gifts or receiving needed funds or other things. The doctrine is in error and yet I believe holy scripture and all the promises of God. But the scripture tells me (in Romans 8:24-25) that I must wait with patience for the hope which saves to be fulfilled. In one of my recent posts I pointed to passages to explain how both the promises of God are fulfilled and how they are not yet present with us. I wrote: "In Christ all the promises of God are yes and amen, says the scripture (2Cor 1:20). Yet the faithful catch colds, flu, and other more serious diseases and some die in accidents. The promises of God are fulfilled in Christ and it is evident that their fulfilment awaits the resurrection and the last judgement. Thus one can have eternal life now and yet die but in the resurrection one will have eternal life and never die (John 11:25-26)

 

[psalms 91]

Name it and claim it for healing from disease does not work nor does name it and claim it for blessings such as becoming a pastor or receiving spiritual gifts or receiving needed funds or other things. The doctrine is in error and yet I believe holy scripture and all the promises of God. But the scripture tells me (in Romans 8:24-25) that I must wait with patience for the hope which saves to be fulfilled. In one of my recent posts I pointed to passages to explain how both the promises of God are fulfilled and how they are not yet present with us. I wrote: "In Christ all the promises of God are yes and amen, says the scripture (2Cor 1:20). Yet the faithful catch colds, flu, and other more serious diseases and some die in accidents. The promises of God are fulfilled in Christ and it is evident that their fulfilment awaits the resurrection and the last judgement. Thus one can have eternal life now and yet die but in the resurrection one will have eternal life and never die (John 11:25-26)

It also says that by His stripes we are healed. What does salvation mean to you? To me it means the fullness of and includes healing, prosperity (not necessarily material), and all the other promises that are in there.