Alithis, question on your posts in "knowing Jesus" thread

[Rens]

and not to my friends and family whose eyes will immediately glaze over and begin finding ways to leave the room.

:;-D:
Makes me think of my brother in law, I think my sister is now married with him for 25 years or more and noone has any idea what he does for work.
'something with computers'
I asked a few times years ago and was like: hmmm oooh yeah hmmm hmmm okay.
What did he just say?
I have absolutely no idea hahahahahahahahaha

 

[Alithis]

A religious testimony might include the ways in which a speaker attests to the ways their God has worked in their life to sanctify them for His service. As an example, a testimony could include how He brought them through a difficult time in their life (such as a loss of some sort or a severe illness) and built their faith in Him through that experience.

As such, I see nothing wrong with speaking about an addiction overcome, an illness healed, a tragedy averted, etc. For the speaker, I can understand how experiences such as these could bolster their faith and how they would wish to convey this testimony to others of their same faith. If I discover a mathematical theorem, I will naturally want to speak of it to others who have studied mathematics and can more fully appreciate its implications, and not to my friends and family whose eyes will immediately glaze over and begin finding ways to leave the room. It's natural to want to share certain experiences with those who can more deeply relate to them.

However, I think the issue here is about testimony that provides compelling evidence to those who don't share the same faith as the speaker. I doubt that's what Alithis had in mind when he began the other thread. I took that original thread to be a calling from one Christian to others to speak about how they feel God has worked in their lives.

Now, Strav was asking how Alithis' testimony about being delivered from his former addiction to tobacco would work to convince people of other beliefs that this deliverance could only be attributed to the Christian God. The answer here, plain and simple, is that it can't. As has been pointed out, people have been known to quit tobacco cold turkey, by sheer force of will without appealing to the Christian God, or to any supernatural agent.

So, I think if Alithis were to concede this point, and Strav were to concede that Alithis didn't originally intend for his testimony to be regarded by everyone regardless of faith as "compelling evidence" of anything, then we are all pretty much on the same page.

how did i miss this post ?

 

[Stravinsk]

A religious testimony might include the ways in which a speaker attests to the ways their God has worked in their life to sanctify them for His service. As an example, a testimony could include how He brought them through a difficult time in their life (such as a loss of some sort or a severe illness) and built their faith in Him through that experience.

As such, I see nothing wrong with speaking about an addiction overcome, an illness healed, a tragedy averted, etc. For the speaker, I can understand how experiences such as these could bolster their faith and how they would wish to convey this testimony to others of their same faith. If I discover a mathematical theorem, I will naturally want to speak of it to others who have studied mathematics and can more fully appreciate its implications, and not to my friends and family whose eyes will immediately glaze over and begin finding ways to leave the room. It's natural to want to share certain experiences with those who can more deeply relate to them.

However, I think the issue here is about testimony that provides compelling evidence to those who don't share the same faith as the speaker. I doubt that's what Alithis had in mind when he began the other thread. I took that original thread to be a calling from one Christian to others to speak about how they feel God has worked in their lives.

Now, Strav was asking how Alithis' testimony about being delivered from his former addiction to tobacco would work to convince people of other beliefs that this deliverance could only be attributed to the Christian God. The answer here, plain and simple, is that it can't. As has been pointed out, people have been known to quit tobacco cold turkey, by sheer force of will without appealing to the Christian God, or to any supernatural agent.

So, I think if Alithis were to concede this point, and Strav were to concede that Alithis didn't originally intend for his testimony to be regarded by everyone regardless of faith as "compelling evidence" of anything, then we are all pretty much on the same page.

Nicely put, Mark. Except for a couple of things:

1) Alithis did intend to tie his effortless nicotine deliverance with his Christianity - as a proof of. This is in his original wording of this original first 2 posts.

2) As if on divine cue for the course of this conversation on this MB, apparently God has given Alithis a much more powerful example (bold text):

why not use something that's a little more significant than something that all sorts of people do.. please then .. go and do so


yesterday morning i met a guy was in pain after a shoulder accident two weeks back -so i prayed for hi and the pain vanished and he was healed and a very happy man .. thats the lord Jesus i believe in
but doubters will attribute it to anything rather the give glory to god ...
the problem is the astounding rebellion of unbelief among those who claim to be Christian . and they propagate that unbelief .. in the case of this thread the poster is outright in motive to propagate doubt . not wiling to glorify the lord Jesus in anything .

So, according to Alithis, if you doubt his word, you're a rebel a (blanket) unbeliever, and full of rebellion.

Given that we aren't all anonymous here (wink wink) and there's never been any proven Xian frauds doing fraudulent miracles(wink wink wink), or telling tall stories of such - I think it's safe to just believe. After all, salvation lies in the balance, right? :ewink:

 

[MarkFL]

Well, I will admit I didn't scrutinize the subsequent posts as part of my overall analysis of this situation, and perhaps I should have. I was basing my post on the initial testimony, and your pointing out how it is unconvincing to non-Christians as being attributable to one agent only.

That being said, I never accept personal testimony from anyone at all as compelling evidence for extraordinary claims. But, I didn't really read Alithis' testimony about the deliverance from tobacco addiction and the curing of shoulder pain as being presented as evidence to convince the non-believer. Perhaps the testimony about the shoulder was intended as such, but falls far short as any kind of compelling evidence for me, and indeed for anyone who looks at how shoulder pain can disappear for a variety of reasons...and one of those could even be a placebo affect resulting from beliefs or expectation of a result. A tribal man may feel instant relief at the mere sight of the medicine man and his accoutrement, much like we find some relief when the doctor walks into the examination room with an air of authority, with the white coat and stethoscope, etc.

So, as to the question of whether such testimony has any powers of persuasion without certain presuppositions being present, you are of course correct. However, I still stand behind saying that initially Alithis presented his testimony in a thread that appeared to me to be addressing other Christians, then as such, the testimony isn't so much trying to say it is objective compelling evidence of anything, but was intended as a statement of faith to those sharing the same or very similar faith. But, it was posted in an area in which everyone is invited to post, so your question wasn't technically out of line, and had Alithis simply agreed that it is unconvincing to those who don't share his faith (and wasn't intended to be), then I think we could have all moved on without issue. This isn't intended as a dig at Alithis though, after all how easy is it to be an armchair quarterback?

 

[Alithis]

lol , have a nice chat guys

 

[MarkFL]

lol , have a nice chat guys

Thank you...I think Strav and I are pretty much getting this completely ironed out. :thumbsup:

It would have been nice if you had chimed in to agree that personal testimony isn't objective evidence in and of itself, nor did you intend it as such...however it is your prerogative not to do so.

 

[Alithis]

Thank you...I think Strav and I are pretty much getting this completely ironed out. :thumbsup:

It would have been nice if you had chimed in to agree that personal testimony isn't objective evidence in and of itself, nor did you intend it as such...however it is your prerogative not to do so.

never said it was though
but one thing about [personal testimony is ... you can ever say it is untrue ,you can only choose to disbelieve it , same as everything else .
and we testify of the gospel,the good news of Jesus , it is the power of God unto salvation to all those that believe ...

to all those that believe ... to those that do not believe such as yourselves, .. it is a nice story . that's your choice .
i urge you to change your minds .. but if you will not you will not .

it is my duty of love to tell you the message , not convince you . because those who have chosen to be unconvinced get what they have chosen .
and those who choose to be convinced get what they have chosen also .

 

[MarkFL]

I really wasn't addressing what you believe, after all you are entitled to your own beliefs, as are we all. I was simply inviting you to agree that testimony by itself has no compelling power to convince those who do not share the presuppositions of the testifier. I'm not trying to dissuade you of your beliefs at all, or even say you are necessarily wrong.

 

[Alithis]

its irrelevant to the message im given to deliver
and the message hasn't changed .

 

[MarkFL]

its irrelevant to the message im given to deliver
and the message hasn't changed .

It's actually very relevant to the topic of this thread. However, I won't press further...I've made the points I wish to make in an effort to show you both have valid stances. Allowing for the fact that personal testimony does not necessarily serve as objective compelling evidence for others, does not in any way invalidate your testimony as testimony.

 

[Alithis]

true enough .

 

[Alithis]

i think your thirsty for good debate .. but sorry , as you well know .. you wont be satisfied from me .im a terrible debater . and every topic i will bring back to the gospel message -and im not apologizing for that part

 

[MarkFL]

I don't wish to debate here...I actually agree with and understand your desire to give testimony to other Christians (I have Christians in my family, was churched as a child and so I know what a powerful tool testimony is for edification), and I also agree with Strav when he points out testimony alone can be unconvincing to those outside of the testifier's belief system. This doesn't take away anything from your testimony as it is intended. These are not opposing views, so trying to stir up a debate here would be inappropriate.

 

[Stravinsk]

I don't wish to debate here...I actually agree with and understand your desire to give testimony to other Christians (I have Christians in my family, was churched as a child and so I know what a powerful tool testimony is for edification), and I also agree with Strav when he points out testimony alone can be unconvincing to those outside of the testifier's belief system. This doesn't take away anything from your testimony as it is intended. These are not opposing views, so trying to stir up a debate here would be inappropriate.

It can be unconvincing to those within the belief system as well. There is no verse in the Teachings of Yeshua, in the proverbs, psalms or Torah that says "believe everything you're told". Quite the opposite, really. The Torah has a teaching on false prophets. Israel is often misled by them. Even Yeshua has a stern warning to consider what one hears, and to watch out for false prophets.

A prophet, btw - doesn't need to "tell the future". All they need to do is claim to be speaking for God.

Given the amount of charlatans and fakers just in the last few decades - proven frauds - there is no good reason to just believe an extraordinary claim, be it from the basis of a discernment with biblical backing - and/or - from the evidence of fraudulent shepherds in more modern times. Skepticism of this sort is not something that indicates "rebellion" or some "sin of unbelief" as Alithis might like us to think. It's healthy, and it is biblical.

 

[MarkFL]

Well certainly the testimony must be within reason for some expectation of belief, even within the community of those sharing the same belief system. If my sister were to testify at her church that she was in an accident in her car and that at the scene of the accident she prayed for her totaled car to be miraculously restored to showroom condition, and it happened...there would likely be serious doubts within her congregation...even if she could take them out to the parking lot and show them a car in brand new condition, most would reasonably assume it was a different vehicle than the one they saw her in the previous week. Only if there had been one or more trusted members of the congregation present with her at the scene of the (hypothetical) accident to witness and offer their backing testimony about the mangled vehicle being miraculously transformed into a new one right before their eyes would they likely believe it had or possibly had happened. Christians shouldn't be expected to believe everything other Christians tell them...to do so would of course be unwise.

However, if my sister were to testify that her prayers for the healing of someone she knows were answered, then that would likely be met with general acceptance within her congregation without them having to meet the previously afflicted person, and to review their medical records and interview their doctor, etc. This same testimony to non-Christians would be met with more skepticism though, and would likely require evidence to back the claim that there was a healing and (much more importantly) that it could only have come from God.

 

[Alithis]

I don't wish to debate here...I actually agree with and understand your desire to give testimony to other Christians (I have Christians in my family, was churched as a child and so I know what a powerful tool testimony is for edification), and I also agree with Strav when he points out testimony alone can be unconvincing to those outside of the testifier's belief system. This doesn't take away anything from your testimony as it is intended. These are not opposing views, so trying to stir up a debate here would be inappropriate.

no i didn't mean your thirsty for debate "here " lol .. just that i think you are thirsty for debate .. quality debate ! and i cant give you that because i'm a rotten terrible debater

 

[MarkFL]

no i didn't mean your thirsty for debate "here " lol .. just that i think you are thirsty for debate .. quality debate ! and i cant give you that because i'm a rotten terrible debater

I do enjoy a good healthy debate...we can learn a great deal that way. I truly value the times when others have shown me the flaws in my reasoning or presented facts I didn't know, so I can correct my views and emerge from the debate less ignorant than I was before. If we ever stop learning, then we stop growing.

 

[Rens]

My son with the broken arm almost fell over twice because he's way too not quiet with me and the first time he said he was pushed back by an angel. Now that's something MarkFL and Stravinsk will immediately believe without questioning LOL.

 

[MarkFL]

My son with the broken arm almost fell over twice because he's way too not quiet with me and the first time he said he was pushed back by an angel. Now that's something MarkFL and Stravinsk will immediately believe without questioning LOL.

Why, I have no reason to doubt your son told you that...so yes, I believe without question that your son told you he was pushed back by an angel.

 

[Alithis]

Why, I have no reason to doubt your son told you that...so yes, I believe without question that your son told you he was pushed back by an angel.

(having established my inability to effective debate let it be known my reply is from within that lack of ability and be overlooked )

do you believe he was speaking the truth ?
you implication is that you do not .

so this is case where belief ..comes down to choice is it not ?

and the thing with belief in god, is he promises a resulting / effect when it is grasped hold of and acted upon based on that choice to believe .
and he is gracious i that at times he gives a taste of that effect before a person believes. i observe this when utter strangers and non believers are healed when prayed .

but this is where faith become activated . faith... (which is in everyone - ie ,you have faith when you turn your keys in the morning that your car will start because you believe your car will start -not a great example but Sufi to show faith exists in every person , dont get sidetracked ).. cannot be activated without will . so the "will" to believe is also required .
if a person does not want to believe a certain thing then they will not bevel that certain thing and thus they will not activate faith . this is not gods fault, he gives the faith .
of course if you chose to not believe that ,it means nothing to you and so the cycle goes until you decide to repent .
the word repent isμετανοώ
metanoóo (met a noi a ) which means ,in essence, to rethink . to change your mind towards god . when you refuse to do this you are acting on self will .

would you agree you have observed this principle at work in every day life regardless of religious stance (though religious stance certainly influences WHAT and how a person thinks ) even if it is simplified down the the cup half full analogy ,its the same principle at work. how we think changes the choices we make and the subsequent actions we take, which effects the final result we obtain.

Thus when we ,by our own will , choose to believe God, change our thinking ,thus change our choice of behavior and receive the end result -the salvation of our souls .all because he has said we can. having graciously made it possible in Christ .. why would we not do so except we love our present life here all too much and think our own thinking is suffice , but it leads to the end result of death. . (now here in this last sentence i admit i left off my poor attempt at debate and went back into preaching the gospel both to you and to some professing believers lol -just as i said i will always do .)