Water and Bread of Life

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, the significance is [h]is body and blood that died for us on the cross so our sins are forgiven. In Communion HE is there.

In Jewish history "remembrance" wasn't JUST thinking about it. It was partaking in something in order to remember.

Yes, in remembering we relive it. It is not about the past it is about how the past is the lived experience of the faithful today. It is we who die with Christ on the cross and it is we who are offered with him in his body. This is part of the mystery of union and communion with Christ. Without which we cannot have eternal life.

 

[Ackbach]

My argument is IS means IS.

But it doesn't.

The Greek verb is estin. It means IS.

Not always. If you follow this link, you'll see that the same Greek verb (different number: plural instead of singular, but it's the same verb) is used figuratively in the New Testament, in Revelation 17:9, as the author mentions. In other words, the Greek verb estin has about the same range of meaning as the English verb "is".

In fact, the way that it is written is that it is a linking verb meaning so it has a strong emphasis. So it's not just IS but absolutely is.

I can totally grant that "estin" is being used grammatically as a linking verb. Why does that give it strong emphasis? Why does that mean "absolutely is"?

So, [unm]Lämmchen[/unm], I notice that you identify yourself as a Lutheran. The official Lutheran position here is consubstantiation, not transubstantiation. How does this passage argue for con, and not trans, in your mind? Or do you believe in transubstantiation?

 

[Lamb]

But it doesn't.



Not always. If you follow this link, you'll see that the same Greek verb (different number: plural instead of singular, but it's the same verb) is used figuratively in the New Testament, in Revelation 17:9, as the author mentions. In other words, the Greek verb estin has about the same range of meaning as the English verb "is".



I can totally grant that "estin" is being used grammatically as a linking verb. Why does that give it strong emphasis? Why does that mean "absolutely is"?

So, [unm]Lämmchen[/unm], I notice that you identify yourself as a Lutheran. The official Lutheran position here is consubstantiation, not transubstantiation. How does this passage argue for con, and not trans, in your mind? Or do you believe in transubstantiation?

Lutherans do not believe in consubstantiation.

 

[Ackbach]

Lutherans do not believe in consubstantiation.

Very well; apparently, I've been taught incorrectly on this point. When I say "consubstantiation", I mean that the Lord's physical body is in, around, or through the bread and wine, but does not become the bread and wine (which I call transubstantiation). I do not mean "consubstantial", as it is in the Creed, where the Father and the Son share the same essence: the Son is consubstantial with the Father. I understand, now, that Lutherans object to this connotation, and so prefer not to use the term. What do you believe?

1. Do you believe that Jesus' physical human body is in any way present during Communion?
2. If you do not believe that Jesus' physical human body is in any way present during Communion, in what way would you say that He is present, if indeed you do believe that He is present?
3. I take Calvin's view: that Jesus Christ is really and truly present spiritually, but not physically. The bread and wine stay bread and wine during Communion, and they need no special treatment after the sacrament. I do not take the Zwinglian memorialist-only view. What are your thoughts on this view?

 

[Lamb]

Lutherans believe we receive bread and wine and also Jesus' true body and blood.

 

[Ackbach]

Lutherans believe we receive bread and wine and also Jesus' true body and blood.

Well, ok. This sentence doesn't mean a whole lot to me, because I don't know how you're defining your terms. I've tried to define my terms, but you didn't use my terms in your reply; that's totally fine, but communication will not have happened unless we both understand how each of us is using our terms.

What does it mean to "receive"? What does "true" mean? By "body and blood", do you mean Jesus' current, physical, human body and blood? Or His past body and blood (before the Crucifixion)? Or something else?

 

[Cassia]

It is important to differentiate between believing and receiving. Most have been taught that to believe is the end-all of salvation but scripture says that even the demons believe. What's important is the receiving.

John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

God gave His Son and we receive the Son. There's no merit for the sinner, it's all accomplished by the Lord Jesus. The Holy Spirit came and caused us to realize our sins. While we were yet sinners, He died for us. He accomplished the salvation. When He died, He proclaimed, "It is finished!" John 19:30 He came to save, and when we are willing to be saved, the matter is settled. There is no question of complete or incomplete faith.
Getting back to John 6 which is the OP we read

John 6:37
Him who comes to Me I shall by no means cast out​

Since we have responded to the offer to receive, there's now only one question, "Has He cast me out?" No because He has given us rest Matthew 11:28 and He has given us what He gave to the woman at the well

John 7:37
If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink​

This is the Lord's invitation. It's not just our faith that saving us, it's His grace and faithfulness. So.. Rejoice that your names are recorded in the heavens Luke 10:20 That is the glad tidings, the good news, the gospel, in a nutshell. What we keep hearing is that something else needs to be done. It's not true. What is the inheritance to be received at this time except for peace and joy. That is the promise!

Knowing that our life is hid with Christ in God can only prompt us to set our mind on the things above. That's cause for joy and peace and gives a song to the heart.:amen:

 

[Cassia]

Had the Lord Jesus intended to say "this means my body" then he'd have said so. John 6:25-71 tells the meaning of the Lord's words. One who is a disciple and who will stay with him and draw life from him will eat his flesh and drink his blood as their food and drink for eternal life. If your theology refuses this then I am not surprised that some other meaning, a different spin, must be applied to "this is my body" and "this is the cup of the new covenant in my blood given for many for the forgiveness of sins" even though you no doubt wish to keep a more literal spin on the part about the forgiveness of one's sins.

Someone who partakes in eating and drinking as in John 6:55 does so by faith. To eat and drink are not just empty words.
To eat and drink one must also digest what one has partaken of or it doesn't produce life. Failure lies in taking edification from human wisdom thru doctrines or studying the word with human wisdom, That can't dispense the life of God into others. The audience receiving the Word can only gain life from One who has life. Theories about life can only reach the soul and they are usually very hard to digest. Only life can reach the human spirit and it's unmistakable when it's heard. That is edification. Rom. 8:16; Eph. 3:16 Experience of the word is the food we eat that becomes the flesh of our flesh and the bone of our bones so as to become a living doctrine so it's not just theory but true to our own lives.

That sounds to me like you would agree?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Someone who partakes in eating and drinking as in John 6:55 does so by faith. To eat and drink are not just empty words.
To eat and drink one must also digest what one has partaken of or it doesn't produce life. Failure lies in taking edification from human wisdom thru doctrines or studying the word with human wisdom, That can't dispense the life of God into others. The audience receiving the Word can only gain life from One who has life. Theories about life can only reach the soul and they are usually very hard to digest. Only life can reach the human spirit and it's unmistakable when it's heard. That is edification. Rom. 8:16; Eph. 3:16 Experience of the word is the food we eat that becomes the flesh of our flesh and the bone of our bones so as to become a living doctrine so it's not just theory but true to our own lives.

That sounds to me like you would agree?

One eats and drinks in faith because the rite of communion is the centre of worship in the mass (and in liturgies and services in other churches too) and worship is an act done in faith so as far as it goes I am in agreement that one partakes in faith and thus receives eternal life because one receives Christ. I think the spiritualising in your post is a case of "another spin" to make a theology of symbolism in communion work. It's a spin not present in holy scripture.

 

[Cassia]

One eats and drinks in faith because the rite of communion is the centre of worship in the mass (and in liturgies and services in other churches too) and worship is an act done in faith so as far as it goes I am in agreement that one partakes in faith and thus receives eternal life because one receives Christ. I think the spiritualising in your post is a case of "another spin" to make a theology of symbolism in communion work. It's a spin not present in holy scripture.

Colossians 2:16
Let no one therefore judge you in eating and in drinking .......

Here's where eating and drinking is justified in experience, where do you see it in the litergy?

Matthew 11:18-19
For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say, He has a demon.
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking; and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. Yet wisdom is justified by her works.
Luke 7:34
The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.
Luke 10:7
And in that house remain, eating and drinking the things from them, for the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not move from house to house.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Colossians 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating and in drinking ....... Here's where eating and drinking is justified in experience, where do you see it in the liturgy?

Matthew 11:18-19
For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say, He has a demon.
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking; and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. Yet wisdom is justified by her works.
Luke 7:34
The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.
Luke 10:7
And in that house remain, eating and drinking the things from them, for the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not move from house to house.

The quote from Colossians 2:16 ought to be read in context because it is not about the Eucharist and you've attempted to apply it to the Eucharist.

Colossians 2:16-19 [16] Therefore, let no one judge you as concerns food or drink, or a particular feast day, or feast days of new moons, or of Sabbaths. [17] For these are a shadow of the future, but the body is of Christ. [18] Let no one seduce you, preferring base things and a religion of Angels, walking according to what he has not seen, being vainly inflated by the sensations of his flesh, [19] and not holding up the head, with which the whole body, by its underlying joints and ligaments, is joined together and grows with an increase that is of God.​

The other passages are also not (when read in context) about the Eucharist so their teaching is not directly relevant to the topic we're discussing.

 

[psalms 91]

The quote from Colossians 2:16 ought to be read in context because it is not about the Eucharist and you've attempted to apply it to the Eucharist.

Colossians 2:16-19 [16] Therefore, let no one judge you as concerns food or drink, or a particular feast day, or feast days of new moons, or of Sabbaths. [17] For these are a shadow of the future, but the body is of Christ. [18] Let no one seduce you, preferring base things and a religion of Angels, walking according to what he has not seen, being vainly inflated by the sensations of his flesh, [19] and not holding up the head, with which the whole body, by its underlying joints and ligaments, is joined together and grows with an increase that is of God.​

The other passages are also not (when read in context) about the Eucharist so their teaching is not directly relevant to the topic we're discussing.

I agree, it was about the old prohibition against unclean animals. God was saying that He can sanctify anything and to eat what is set before you unless it was sacriiced untom idols

 

[Cassia]

The quote from Colossians 2:16 ought to be read in context because it is not about the Eucharist and you've attempted to apply it to the Eucharist.

Colossians 2:16-19 [16] Therefore, let no one judge you as concerns food or drink, or a particular feast day, or feast days of new moons, or of Sabbaths. [17] For these are a shadow of the future, but the body is of Christ. [18] Let no one seduce you, preferring base things and a religion of Angels, walking according to what he has not seen, being vainly inflated by the sensations of his flesh, [19] and not holding up the head, with which the whole body, by its underlying joints and ligaments, is joined together and grows with an increase that is of God.​

The other passages are also not (when read in context) about the Eucharist so their teaching is not directly relevant to the topic we're discussing.

You didn't answer my question

 

[Cassia]

Someone who partakes in eating and drinking as in John 6:55 does so by faith. To eat and drink are not just empty words.
To eat and drink one must also digest what one has partaken of or it doesn't produce life. Failure lies in taking edification from human wisdom thru doctrines or studying the word with human wisdom, That can't dispense the life of God into others. The audience receiving the Word can only gain life from One who has life. Theories about life can only reach the soul and they are usually very hard to digest. Only life can reach the human spirit and it's unmistakable when it's heard. That is edification. Rom. 8:16; Eph. 3:16 Experience of the word is the food we eat that becomes the flesh of our flesh and the bone of our bones so as to become a living doctrine so it's not just theory but true to our own lives.

That sounds to me like you would agree?

You didn't answer my question

It can't be from doctrine, right?

 

[Lamb]

1 Corinthians 11:27

"Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord."

This speaks volumes in stating that the bread and wine are the body and blood.

 

[Cassia]

1 Corinthians 11:27

"Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord."

This speaks volumes in stating that the bread and wine are the body and blood.

It states volumes about judging whether one eats and drinks unworthily or not.

 

[Lamb]

How can you sin against body and blood by eating and drinking unworthily if it isn't His body and blood there as you eat it?

 

[Cassia]

How can you sin against body and blood by eating and drinking unworthily if it isn't His body and blood there as you eat it?

By eating and drinking not remembering (digesting) what He has accomplished

 

[MoreCoffee]

You didn't answer my question

In the liturgy of the word the faithful gather at the table of the written word and partake of it's abundant wisdom. At the table of the Lord the faithful gather at the Lord's table and receive him in body, blood, soul, and divinity and so receive the eternal life that is manifested in Christ.

 

[Lamb]

By eating and drinking not remembering (digesting) what He has accomplished

Except that the reference is specifically sinning against His body and blood. It's not vague wording of merely sinning against the Lord.