Why is arianism considered heretical?

[popsthebuilder]

Since you had no premise, no point - when what was your point in noting a verse where Jesus is called a prophet and then you noting Jesus ergo is not God?






Show me how each of the following prove that Jesus is not also God. Each of them specifically speaking of JESUS (born of Mary):


1 John 5:20

Romans 9:5

John 8:58

John 17:5

Hebrews 1:1-3 and Hebrews 1:10-12

Matthew 18:20

Hebrews 13:8

Matthew 18:20

Colossians 2:9


John 1:1-16 [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. [9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - JESUS - I had." NOT, "that just my divine nature but not human nature had"


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity but not me." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: JESUS is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us" JESUS is God. And He - God - gave himself for us on the Cross.


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




Also see post # 6 where these things are explained




Thank you.


- Josiah




.

1) we are speaking of scripture. Not a scientific experiment with controls; stop saying prove and proof; there is none. There is evidence though.

2) I generally can't understand how atheist justify saying that the faithful are gullible and or their faith is the product of indoctrination; but I'm starting to see where they may get that from.

3) why should I answer anything you pose when you won't do the same for the simple questions I've posed?
4)your entire argument relies on the validity of councils of men as opposed to the plain reading of scripture.

I will review the scripture you posted, but it is an exercise in futility as the entire bible verifies what I say, not just singular verses taken out of context.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Josiah,

You referenced 1John 5:20

1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

We see here that if one believes Jesus is the Christ (which arianism does not refute in the least) begotten of GOD then they are of the faithful. We also see that if we love Christ then too we will love our brothers, and furthermore that those who believe and love indeed will abide by the commands of Christ, and not just that but that one will delight in them.

1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
4: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6: This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

A testament that real faith in Christ the Son of GOD is that which gives one the ability to overcome worldly desire or any other oppression by the Will of GOD. Of blood and water is to say one who is not only baptised in the Spirit but who sacrifices wants of self, even unto death. GOD the Spirit/Christ is the witness to one's Faith. No other.

1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8: And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Describes that the faith of one is witnessed in heaven by GOD, and that the witness of earth is that the Spirit dwells in one, baptizing them, unto utter self sacrifice. They agree in unison, as in together they are irrefutably true. Leaving no question as to the substance of one's Faith.



1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

We see here that one who believes in the Son of GOD has the Spirit in them. And it is irrefutablly true. The witness is in them and they know if they are truthfully in the Spirit of GOD, and others will know by their works and their self sacrifice if they too have the Spirit of GOD within them.

1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14: And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

We know that if we are of the Will of GOD that whatever we ask of GOD will be of his will, and we know it will be fulfilled. 1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
16: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17: All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

We see that prayer can help to bring all to one accord, yet that one who blasphems isn't said to be praid for.
We see that whosoever is born of the Spirit of GOD is without fault, and whosoever is still on fault isn't of GOD.

This speaks exponentially against the doctrine of faith alone, or belief in word alone.

1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
19: And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20: And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
21: Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Verifying that the Son of GOD is indeed GOD as we can know GOD. Not that man is or ever was at any point. As man is carnal, and the Spirit of GOD is not. Indeed these verses attest that the son of GOD is GOD and that it is spirit, and not man, though it can dwell in man by GOD's will, and that it is irrefutable because of the witnesses of earth and the witness in heaven.

You referenced this;


Romans 9 (KJV) - ሮሜ
5: Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Rather confusing in and of itself.

Let's look a little deeper shall we?

Romans 8 (KJV) - ሮሜ
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is a difference in Son of GOD and GOD. To focus on this difference is of no positive effect.

We aren't to contend with one another but to help one another.

I am done with the particular line of reasoning I have been using. I feel that I am weakening the faith of others and that was NEVER my intention.

I still believe that equating man to GOD is erroneous, but to deprive any of faith as opposed to strengthening it is not right. I believe the Lord and GOD to be one and the same, and will not be disputing where man falls into this any longer.
I will most likely focus more on other aspects of faith such as obidience and belief.

If we are faithful to GOD then we will strive to help one another. I am setting aside my pride and stopping this now.

Peace with humility and sincerity.


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

Since you had no premise, no point - when what was your point in noting a verse where Jesus is called a prophet and then you noting Jesus ergo is not God ????????????????





Show me how each of the following prove that Jesus is not also God. Each of them specifically speaking of JESUS (born of Mary):


1 John 5:20

Romans 9:5

John 8:58

John 17:5

Hebrews 1:1-3 and Hebrews 1:10-12

Matthew 18:20

Hebrews 13:8

Matthew 18:20

Colossians 2:9


John 1:1-16 [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. [9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - JESUS - I had." NOT, "that just my divine nature but not human nature had"


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity but not me." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: JESUS is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us" JESUS is God. And He - God - gave himself for us on the Cross.


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




Also see post # 6 where these things are explained




Thank you.


- Josiah



.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Yup.

Verifying that the Son of GOD is indeed GOD as we can know GOD. Not that man is or ever was at any point.

AGAIN, oh yet AGAIN, for ANOTHER time.... no one, no person, no man or woman, no Christian, no one on the Planet Earth says that any man is God. Or that God is any man. I have repeatedly, clearly, denounced that heresy (I've named it, I've given you references so you could learn about it, all to no avail). Jesus does NOT, repeat NOT, NOT in any way or shape or form or nature, not now, not in the past, not in the future, never ever, He does NOT have one nature. He has TWO natures. He is God AND man, human AND divine. Read post # 6. TWO is not one. It never has been. TWO is not a united one. TWO is more than one. It always has been and still is. I reject ALL the heresies you keep promoting.

Read post # 6. Read the Scriptures above.

You referenced this; Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Thus Romans 9:5 is in line with the rest of Scripture, with the consensus of historic Christianity and with the doctrine of the Two Natures of Christ. See post # 6.

Romans 8 :39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yup.

I believe that equating man to GOD is erroneous

Everyone does - as I've pointed out to you over and over and over and over again, in multiple threads.

And why your embrace of Arianism and promotion of a whole host of long ago condemned heresies is not good and biblically wrong.... and why your rejection of the Two Natures of Christ (shocking and disturbing that you do!) is biblically impossible as well as historically heresy.



To the point of this thread, see post # 5. To your rejection of the Two Natures of Christ and promotion of most of the Christological heresies, see post # 6.




Pax Christi



- Josiah




.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Yup.

1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
21: Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Verifying that the Son of GOD is indeed GOD as we can know GOD. Not that man is or ever was at any point. As man is carnal, and the Spirit of GOD is not. Indeed these verses attest that the son of GOD is GOD and that it is spirit, and not man, though it can dwell in man by GOD's will, and that it is irrefutable because of the witnesses of earth and the witness in heaven.

You referenced this;


Romans 9 (KJV) - ሮሜ
5: Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Rather confusing in and of itself.

Let's look a little deeper shall we?

Romans 8 (KJV) - ሮሜ
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is a difference in Son of GOD and GOD. To focus on this difference is of no positive effect.

We aren't to contend with one another but to help one another.

I am done with the particular line of reasoning I have been using. I feel that I am weakening the faith of others and that was NEVER my intention.

I still believe that equating man to GOD is erroneous, but to deprive any of faith as opposed to strengthening it is not right. I believe the Lord and GOD to be one and the same, and will not be disputing where man falls into this any longer.
I will most likely focus more on other aspects of faith such as obidience and belief.

If we are faithful to GOD then we will strive to help one another. I am setting aside my pride and stopping this now.

Peace with humility and sincerity.


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

[/QUOTE]
Yes we agree on some level as I never said that Christ wasn't GOD but that conflating man with GOD was the problem that has lead to much misdirection in my opinion.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Yup.






AGAIN, oh yet AGAIN, for ANOTHER time.... no one, no person, no man or woman, no Christian, no one on the Planet Earth says that any man is God. Or that God is any man. I have repeatedly, clearly, denounced that heresy (I've named it, I've given you references so you could learn about it, all to no avail). Jesus does NOT, repeat NOT, NOT in any way or shape or form or nature, not now, not in the past, not in the future, never ever, He does NOT have one nature. He has TWO natures. He is God AND man, human AND divine. Read post # 6. TWO is not one. It never has been. TWO is not a united one. TWO is more than one. It always has been and still is. I reject ALL the heresies you keep promoting.

Read post # 6. Read the Scriptures above.








Thus Romans 9:5 is in line with the rest of Scripture, with the consensus of historic Christianity and with the doctrine of the Two Natures of Christ. See post # 6.









Yup.






Everyone does - as I've pointed out to you over and over and over and over again, in multiple threads.

And why your embrace of Arianism and promotion of a whole host of long ago condemned heresies is not good and biblically wrong.... and why your rejection of the Two Natures of Christ (shocking and disturbing that you do!) is biblically impossible as well as historically heresy.



To the point of this thread, see post # 5. To your rejection of the Two Natures of Christ and promotion of most of the Christological heresies, see post # 6.




Pax Christi



- Josiah




.

I'm sorry, but could you please refer me towards scripture that expressly speaks of this dual nature of Jesus of Nazareth?

Please don't say that you have, or paste the exact same things we have already been over. Obviously to me, those things don't seem to verify a dual nature of Jesus as Jesus was of one accord; that of GOD, and held himself with no regard, but the father with all regard.
Thanks

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

I'm sorry, but could you please refer me towards scripture that expressly speaks of this dual nature of Jesus of Nazareth?

Jesus is both God and Man, not one dual nature but TWO natures. Read every one of my posts to you in this thread and in Lamm's "100% God, 100% Man" thread.

Read post # 6 for just a few of the Scriptures.






.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Jesus is both God and Man, not one dual nature but TWO natures. Read every one of my posts to you in this thread and in Lamm's "100% God, 100% Man" thread.

Read post # 6 for just a few of the Scriptures.






.

I have

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

I have

Then you know how Scripture supports the ancient, ecumenical, foundational Christian consensus.... and how it makes Arianism and the several other ancient Christological heresies you've alluded to biblically wrong.



- Josiah

 

[popsthebuilder]

Then you know how Scripture supports the ancient, ecumenical, foundational Christian consensus.... and how it makes Arianism and the several other ancient Christological heresies you've alluded to biblically wrong.



- Josiah

Not at all as all scripture refers to Christ( anointed/savior/messiah)as the Son of GOD. Even Jesus himself says the same repeatedly even referring to himself as the son of man, which we all know is not GOD. Begotten of GOD is not GOD but of GOD, and though the difference is negligible, it is also great.

Agreeing with scripture that the Son is begotten of the Father is not in any way shape or form a heresy.

I don't care how many times you say it is, or how many times you post the same thing. The scripture you have posted everywhere repeatedly in no way denounces the belief that the son is begotten of the father.

It just doesn't.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Then you know how Scripture supports the ancient, ecumenical, foundational Christian consensus.... and how it makes Arianism and the several other ancient Christological heresies you've alluded to biblically wrong.



- Josiah

What other heresies have I alluded to exactly?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

Not at all as all scripture refers to Christ( anointed/savior/messiah)as the Son of GOD.

Rarely, but yes - that does happen: Son of God and Son of Man are two popular, common messiahic titles: Jesus typically using the Son of Man one (referring to the SUFFERING aspect of the savior) while nearly all others using the Son of God one (stressing the glory aspect of the Savior).

But as you well know, it is obvious and abundant that over and over and over again, in bold and clear ways, as you well know, JESUS is indicated as having a divine nature, indicated as being GOD (as well as man). IF you've read post # 6 ( and you say you have but never once seem to indicate), then you know this. Arianism, docetism, adoptionism, and all the long list of other Christological heresies you've alluded to are wrong in view of the Scriptures in post # 6. The historic, biblical, ecumenical consensus of God's people for these many, many, many centuries is obviously and undeniably correct in view of Scripture...... all those Christological heresies simply are destroyed in the light of the Scriptures in post # 6.

Begotten of GOD is not GOD but of GOD

Then while you say you've READ the Scriptures in post # 6, you don't believe them. Okay.

Son is begotten of the Father is not in any way shape or form a heresy.

No, it's not. Denying His full divinity is. And insisting, as Arius did, that his divinity was MADE is heresy (see post # 5). And any thought of Jesus not being eternal is heresy. All those several Christological heresies you've repeatedly alluded to have been addressed (complete with sites for you to visit and learn about each of those heresies) are wrong in light of Scripture. As you fully realize from reading the Scriptures in post # 6, the historic, ecumencial, ancient, universal, biblical consensus of God's people is correct. The heresies are wrong.

I don't care how many times you say it is, or how many times you post the same thing. The scripture you have posted everywhere repeatedly in no way denounces the belief that the son is begotten of the father.

I never remotely said He wasn't. I think this is part of the "problem" here - it SEEMS to me that you not only do not read what is posted to you but make up stuff in place of what is posted to you. Since you read post # 6, quote where I state, "Jesus was not begotten of the Father." As you know, I never said that. No one has.

I know it means some work, but I think you could benefit from reading post # 6. Pay attention to the words that are there and the words that are not there (both being equally important). Read my other posts to you in this thread and in Lamm's "Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man" thread. I honestly think you are completely MISSING enormous points.... and imputing a whole lot NONE of us have said. This has been perpetuated by your propensity to not QUOTE words you are replying to and/or not actually reading the words (obvious by the things you CLAIM others have posted to you that none have). Just a suggestion.



AGAIN, please see post # 5.

And you'd do well to carefully read the WORDS (and only the WORDS) in the following:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/christological-heresies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/early-christian-heresies/




.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Rarely, but yes - that does happen: Son of God and Son of Man are two popular, common messiahic titles: Jesus typically using the Son of Man one (referring to the SUFFERING aspect of the savior) while nearly all others using the Son of God one (stressing the glory aspect of the Savior).

But as you well know, it is obvious and abundant that over and over and over again, in bold and clear ways, as you well know, JESUS is indicated as having a divine nature, indicated as being GOD (as well as man). IF you've read post # 6 ( and you say you have but never once seem to indicate), then you know this. Arianism, docetism, adoptionism, and all the long list of other Christological heresies you've alluded to are wrong in view of the Scriptures in post # 6. The historic, biblical, ecumenical consensus of God's people for these many, many, many centuries is obviously and undeniably correct in view of Scripture...... all those Christological heresies simply are destroyed in the light of the Scriptures in post # 6.






Then while you say you've READ the Scriptures in post # 6, you don't believe them. Okay.






No, it's not. Denying His full divinity is. And insisting, as Arius did, that his divinity was MADE is heresy (see post # 5). And any thought of Jesus not being eternal is heresy. All those several Christological heresies you've repeatedly alluded to have been addressed (complete with sites for you to visit and learn about each of those heresies) are wrong in light of Scripture. As you fully realize from reading the Scriptures in post # 6, the historic, ecumencial, ancient, universal, biblical consensus of God's people is correct. The heresies are wrong.





I never remotely said He wasn't. I think this is part of the "problem" here - it SEEMS to me that you not only do not read what is posted to you but make up stuff in place of what is posted to you. Since you read post # 6, quote where I state, "Jesus was not begotten of the Father." As you know, I never said that. No one has.

I know it means some work, but I think you could benefit from reading post # 6. Pay attention to the words that are there and the words that are not there (both being equally important). Read my other posts to you in this thread and in Lamm's "Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man" thread. I honestly think you are completely MISSING enormous points.... and imputing a whole lot NONE of us have said. This has been perpetuated by your propensity to not QUOTE words you are replying to and/or not actually reading the words (obvious by the things you CLAIM others have posted to you that none have). Just a suggestion.



AGAIN, please see post # 5.

And you'd do well to carefully read the WORDS (and only the WORDS) in the following:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/christological-heresies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/early-christian-heresies/




.

I don't know where you are from but where I come from, begotten and eternal aren't synonymous at all.

And since you like to paint me as a lazy fool, then perhaps you could answer what I have been asking. Seeing as how I'm ignorant and all.

Why would GOD kill himself to appease himself so that men can still sin and yet be the children of GOD?

Was Jesus the Son of GOD?

Did he sin?

The last two questions are rhetorical so please, try and focus on the first one.

Thank you.

I have not alluded to any heresy.

Only that the son is begotten of the father.


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

perhaps you could answer what I have been asking.

AGAIN, yet still again, I will not (and cannot) answer anything for God. I don't have the ego for that. I don't claim to be smarter than God or to know more than God (or even to know 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%) as much as God. I can quote Scripture (although you've ignored and contradicted it).... I can share the collective, historic, universal, ecumenical consensus of God's people (athough you've ignored that).... I can share with you what Christians have - for SOLIDLY Biblical reasons - formally and officially and universally condemned as heresy (although you've entirely ignored that), but no - God didn't appoint ME as THE "Answer Man" for any and all questions that anyone (including you) may choose to ask.

And again, still yet one more time, I've never once written that Christianity must answer all your questions. If you had actually READ my posts, you'd know that God never told us to make what He states "reasonable" to fallen, sinful, limited, human bloats, He told us to be faithful STEWARDS of the MYSTERIES of God. It's not my role - or yours - to change what God has said so that you agree with it or understand it or you end up "answering" your own questions.

Why would GOD kill himself to appease himself so that men can still sin and yet be the children of GOD?

SO much wrong with that question, but essentially the answer is Agape.

Was Jesus the Son of GOD?

See post # 6. See all the posts to you by various posters in Lamm's excellent thread, "Jesus - 100% God, 100% man".

Yes, Jesus is the Messiah and thus all the messianic title apply, including Son of Man and Son of God. But to the point here, Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man with TWO (not one but two) inseparable natures - not blended in to one, but TWO: God and man.

Scripture makes all the Christological heresies impossible, wrong, heretical and dangerous. Please READ my posts to you in this thread. Please READ the links provided for you.

Did he sin?

Nope.

See post # 5.

And you'd do well to carefully read the WORDS (and only the WORDS) in the following:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/christological-heresies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devoti...tian-heresies/


.

Did you do that?



.

 

[popsthebuilder]

AGAIN, yet still again, I will not (and cannot) answer anything for God. I don't have the ego for that. I don't claim to be smarter than God or to know more than God (or even to know 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%) as much as God. I can quote Scripture (although you've ignored and contradicted it).... I can share the collective, historic, universal, ecumenical consensus of God's people (athough you've ignored that).... I can share with you what Christians have - for SOLIDLY Biblical reasons - formally and officially and universally condemned as heresy (although you've entirely ignored that), but no - God didn't appoint ME as THE "Answer Man" for any and all questions that anyone (including you) may choose to ask.

And again, still yet one more time, I've never once written that Christianity must answer all your questions. If you had actually READ my posts, you'd know that God never told us to make what He states "reasonable" to fallen, sinful, limited, human bloats, He told us to be faithful STEWARDS of the MYSTERIES of God. It's not my role - or yours - to change what God has said so that you agree with it or understand it or you end up "answering" your own questions.




SO much wrong with that question, but essentially the answer is Agape.





See post # 6. See all the posts to you by various posters in Lamm's excellent thread, "Jesus - 100% God, 100% man".

Yes, Jesus is the Messiah and thus all the messianic title apply, including Son of Man and Son of God. But to the point here, Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man with TWO (not one but two) inseparable natures - not blended in to one, but TWO: God and man.

Scripture makes all the Christological heresies impossible, wrong, heretical and dangerous. Please READ my posts to you in this thread. Please READ the links provided for you.






Nope.





.

You can dodge the issue all you want.

Anyone with a brain and a dictionary can easily see that begotten isn't the same as eternal.

Anyone with any reading comprehension skills whatsoever can see that Jesus never referred to himself as the eternal GOD.

I've tried to stop this pointless arguing for quite a while now. Admitting yet again that the Christ is GOD, but you act as if I am claiming something contrary to regular unbiased reading of scripture.

Please stop attacking me. I don't know what to tell you. I have not once said that the son of GOD wasn't the embodiment of GOD as far as our limited perceptions can justifiably reason. I've stopped in the middle of my contention in order to come to some level of agreement, but you will have none of it. Just the same nonsensical circular logic over and over and over.

You can do what you want, but that doesn't make you right. You can claim that the majority deems something a certain way therefore it must be true. You can claim that we aren't to think as part of our Faith though that is contrary to scripture. You can claim GOD is one of confusion though the plain truth stares you in the face. It makes no difference to me. But your actions speak for themselves.

Leave me out of your nonsense. It is absolutely fruitless for you to continue your nonsense.

You say out of love GOD allows us to sin and be blind, and hold the doctrine of man above the doctrine of GOD. I agree. GOD is long suffering and holds back his wrath that we might come to his will. It is for our sake, not GOD's. If we do not follow the Will of GOD then another will.

Can you not see that you are driving people from Christ and not towards Him?

Leave me be.

Sincerely

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Pedrito]

Pedrito would like to make a suggestion to popsthebuilder.

Pedrito’s suggestion is that he think twice before he beats his well-intentioned head against the wall any more.

The majority of humans have a built-in herd instinct. Loyalty to the herd is near or at the top of their priority list.

Consider: Loyalty to country. Loyalty to state. Loyalty to region. Loyalty to basketball team, baseball team, football team, political party, religion, denomination or religious group within that religion, cherished doctrine, college – the list goes on.

Those loyal to their church or religious group, and those loyal to cherished doctrines, are unwilling to start with the Bible and see where that leads. They constrain themselves to starting with their doctrines, and looking for support (questionable or otherwise) in the Bible. They happily and consistently read into scriptures the meanings they want them to have, then use those meanings to support their doctrines.

They even state that certain God-inspired scriptures mean exactly the opposite of what God had written. (Examples from this thread are given in the following companion post.) A blatant general example is the interpreting of verses which use the term “the Son of God” and the like, to mean “God the Son”.

I suggest that popsthebuilder leave those people to be judged by God.

==============================================================================================

In another thread Pedrito has been simply showing how the Scriptures invoked by Lämmchen (she is not alone in so doing) do not support the position she has invoked them to uphold. Pedrito is not arguing or attempting to discuss in that thread – he is simply exposing to light. People can choose to, or choose not to, confine their use of God-inspired statements, to the clear and precise context in which those statements were made (passage, timing, etc.). They can sort it out with God later.

Continued ...

 

[Lamb]

I'm not sure why you feel so compelled to insult people instead of just making your case and leaving it at that.

 

[Rens]

nm

 

[Pedrito]

According to the notification email sent by Christianity Haven regarding Rens’ Post #77 on Page 8, the original text of that post was:

Pedrito talks just like iBot.

Ped__ri__to__is__un__sure__wheth__er__he__(it)__should__con__fess__that__he__(it)__has__been__found__out,__or__to__ex__press__feigned__off__ence__at__be__ing__com__pared__to__a__pow__ered__wheel__chair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBOT

==============================================================================================

Please be assured that Pedrito takes no offence at being labelled (whether seriously or in jest).

Pedrito does not even take offence at being falsely accused of personal attacks, when all he does is defend Scripture and point out psychological techniques used to defend cherished doctrines when supporting Scripture and logic are lacking.

(Naturally, when the misuse of Scripture and the use of psychological techniques are highlighted, the identity of contributors associated with those questionabilities are revealed. But notice that Pedrito concentrates on the misuse and use (respectively), and their adverse effects.

Note also that often when Scriptures offered by others are looked at closely, they express exactly the opposite of what they are said to mean.)

==============================================================================================

So Pedrito is not offended by Lämmchen’s statement in Post #76 on Page 8:

“I'm not sure why you feel so compelled to insult people instead of just making your case and leaving it at that.”


And Pedrito thinks that Rens’ original comment was fun.

 

[MoreCoffee]

At the heart of the issue of heresy in relation to Arianism is that it is contrary to Apostolic teaching and hence contrary to the teaching of Christ. One may gather bible verses and carefully select them to present a case that seems to be in keeping with Arius' teaching but is in fact only a collection of fragments to prove a doctrine arrived at quite apart from the teaching of Christ.

 

[Pedrito]

With reference to MoreCoffee’s statements in Post #79 on Page 8:

At the heart of the issue of heresy in relation to Arianism is that it is contrary to Apostolic teaching and hence contrary to the teaching of Christ. One may gather bible verses and carefully select them to present a case that seems to be in keeping with Arius' teaching but is in fact only a collection of fragments to prove a doctrine arrived at quite apart from the teaching of Christ.

==============================================================================================

Note the “One may gather bible verses and carefully select them to present a case”. He applies that thought to the Scriptural support of Arianism, and says that such gathering and selecting would be “in fact only a collection of fragments to prove a doctrine arrived at quite apart from the teaching of Christ.”

Once again we ought to thank MoreCoffee for highlighting (unwittingly?) a foundational truth. That foundational truth is that careful selection of Bible verses (and the using them out of context) is the reason that the various existing churches have conflicting doctrines and practices – conflicting doctrines and practices that are clearly evident even among the churches that wave the “Sola Scriptura” flag with fervency.

It is the churches that “gather bible verses and carefully select them to present a case that seems to be in keeping with” their particular “teaching but is in fact only a collection of fragments to prove a doctrine arrived at quite apart from the teaching of Christ”.

That is why they cannot agree. Add doctrines and practices adopted by church councils, derived from “traditions” that conflict with plain statements of Scripture, and the situation deteriorates further.

Pedrito has been pointing that out for some time.

Thanks again to MoreCoffee for bringing that point to our attention.

==============================================================================================

Now, why don’t we ask MoreCoffee to present a balanced case for us?

Why don’t we ask him to present all the verses that “Arianism” gathers and carefully selects to present its case, as well as all the verses that “contra-Arians” use (they are by implication not gathered and carefully selected, and therefore must be totally in context) to present theirs.

Were MoreCoffee to do that fairly, then would that not determine once and for all which “doctrine” is “contrary to Apostolic teaching and hence contrary to the teaching of Christ”?

Wouldn’t that be a good idea?

Who would like to cheer him on?