Why is arianism considered heretical?

popsthebuilder

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None of these Scriptures supports anything in the heresy of Arianism.
None of these Scriptures contradict a thing in the Scriptures already offered in Post # 6, which support the historic Christian consensus and the Biblical position.


Are you JW or LDS?





.
You really must have comprehension problems.

What exactly do you think distinguishes arianism from mainstream Christianity? Is it that the son is begotten according to arianism? Because that is in line with scripture.

I do believe that Christ is of the same substance as GOD or consubstantial.
And since all writing of Arius were destroyed, it's hard to say definitively if he did or did not believe that.


I already answered your question regarding my faith. Why are you asking me again?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 
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Josiah

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Is it that the son is begotten according to arianism? Because that is in line with scripture.


.... Arius taught that the divinity of Jesus was MADE. Christianity has taught and affirmed that Jesus was begotten and "NOT MADE."



As for what distinguishes them, see the following:

Scriptures in Post # 6 for what Scripture says (which the church noted condemns Arianism as heresy).


http://www.gotquestions.org/arianism.html


http://carm.org/arianism


http://www.equip.org/article/what-really-happened-at-nicea/


http://christianity.stackexchange.c...t-are-the-biblical-arguments-against-arianism


.... and see the post #6




Also, if you prefer videos, this 30 minute one is excellent and addresses all the issues you've raised from a biblical, historic, consensual basis, all conveyed very simply and beautifully:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs79R5ZmJY4




Are you JW or LDS? Those two are the only denominations generally acknowledged to support at least some aspects of Arianism, which you seem also to do, which suggests you are one or the other. Are you?



- Josiah



.
 

popsthebuilder

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.... Arius taught that the divinity of Jesus was MADE. Christianity has taught and affirmed that Jesus was begotten and "NOT MADE."



As for what distinguishes them, see the following:

Scriptures in Post # 6 for what Scripture says (which the church noted condemns Arianism as heresy).


http://www.gotquestions.org/arianism.html


http://carm.org/arianism


http://www.equip.org/article/what-really-happened-at-nicea/


http://christianity.stackexchange.c...t-are-the-biblical-arguments-against-arianism


.... and see the post #6




Also, if you prefer videos, this 30 minute one is excellent and addresses all the issues you've raised from a biblical, historic, consensual basis, all conveyed very simply and beautifully:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs79R5ZmJY4




Are you JW or LDS? Those two are the only denominations generally acknowledged to support at least some aspects of Arianism, which you seem also to do, which suggests you are one or the other. Are you?



- Josiah



.
I am not a member or the LDS or JW. Not that I am against them or any other faithful unto GOD, just that I do not distinguish between them.

I've said this already. I also said I have no interest in videos. My interests pertaining to the subject at hand is scripture. I am willing to listen to anyone's opinion and discuss anything.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

popsthebuilder

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Begotten and made are synonymous.

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Lamb

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Begotten and made are synonymous.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

No, they are not the same because "made" implies creation and Jesus is always God. He is eternal, not created. Jesus was born of a woman but he assumed human form in order to save us.
 

popsthebuilder

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No, they are not the same because "made" implies creation and Jesus is always God. He is eternal, not created. Jesus was born of a woman but he assumed human form in order to save us.
made

mād/

1.

past and past participle ofmake.

adjective

suffix:*-made; adjective:*made

1.

made or formed in a particular place or by a particular process.

"a Japanese-made camera"

make

māk/

verb

past tense:*made; past participle:made

1.

form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create.

"my grandmother made a dress for me"

synonyms:construct,*build,assemble,*put together,manufacture,produce,*fabricate,create,*form,fashion,*model

"he makes models"

antonyms:destroy

alter something so that it forms or constitutes (something else).

"buffalo's milk can be made into cheese"

compose, prepare, or draw up (something written or abstract).

"she made her will"

synonyms:formulate,*frame,draw up,*devise,make out,*prepare,compile,compose,*put together;*More

draft,*write,*pen

"he had made a will"

prepare (a dish, drink, or meal) for consumption.

"she was making lunch for Lucy and Francis"

synonymsrepare,*get ready,put together,concoct,*cook,dish up,*throw together,*whip up,brew;*

informalfix

"he made dinner"

arrange bedclothes tidily on (a bed) ready for use.

arrange and light materials for (a fire).

ELECTRONICS

complete or close (a circuit).

2.

cause (something) to exist or come about; bring about.

"the drips had made a pool on the floor"

cause to become or seem.

"decorative features make brickwork more interesting"

carry out, perform, or produce (a specified action, movement, or sound).

"Unger made a speech of forty minutes"

synonyms:cause,*create,*give rise to,*produce,bring about,generate,engender,occasion,*effect,set up,*establish,institute,*found,develop,*originate;More

literarybeget

"don't make such a noise"

perform,*execute,give,*do,accomplish,achieve,*bring off,carry out,*effect

"she made a little bow"

perpetrate,commit,*be responsible for,*be guilty of,*be to blame for

"I've made a mistake"

utter,*give,*deliver,give voice to,enunciate,*recite,pronounce

"she made a short announcement"

communicate or express (an idea, request, or requirement).

"I tend to*make*heavydemands on*people"

synonyms:utter,*give,*deliver,give voice to,enunciate,*recite,pronounce

"she made a short announcement"

archaic

enter into a contract of (marriage).

"a marriage made in heaven"

appoint or designate (someone) to a position.

"he was made a colonel in the Mexican army"

synonyms:appoint,designate,*name,nominate,*select,elect,*vote in,install;*More

induct,*institute,invest,*ordain

"they made him chairman"

represent or cause to appear in a specified way.

"the sale price and extended warranty make it an excellent value"

cause or ensure the success or advancement of.

"the work which really made Wordsworth's reputation"

be·get

bəˈɡet/

verb

literary

verb:*beget; 3rd person present:begets; past tense:*begot; past tense:*begat; gerund or present participle:*begetting; past participle:begotten

1.

(typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.

"they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"

synonyms:father,*sire,*have,bring into the world,give life to,*bring into being,*spawn

"he begat a son"

2.

give rise to; bring about.

"success begets further success"

synonyms:cause,*give rise to,lead to,*result in,bring about,*create,produce,*generate,engender,*spawn,occasion,*bring on,precipitate,*prompt,provoke,*kindle,trigger,*spark off,touch off,*stir up,whip up,*induce,inspire,*promote;

literaryenkindle

"violence begets violence"

Why does scripture say only begotten son then?

Humbly, peace

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Josiah

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No, they are not the same because "made" implies creation and Jesus is always God. He is eternal, not created. Jesus was born of a woman but he assumed human form in order to save us.


Correct. Which is why Christians for nearly 1700 years have confessed that Jesus is begotten and "NOT made." We profess that in condemnation of the horrible heresy of Arianism, Arius foolishly insisting that the divinity of Jesus was made, created.
 

popsthebuilder

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Correct. Which is why Christians for nearly 1700 years have confessed that Jesus is begotten and "NOT made." We profess that in condemnation of the horrible heresy of Arianism, Arius foolishly insisting that the divinity of Jesus was made, created.
You forgot begotten.

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Jesus was not "made" as in He was not created like Adam was. Because He is God, He is eternal. When He came to earth, He allowed himself to assume the form of man. So he is 100% man and also 100% God. He wasn't part of the time God or part of the time man.
 

popsthebuilder

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Jesus was not "made" as in He was not created like Adam was. Because He is God, He is eternal. When He came to earth, He allowed himself to assume the form of man. So he is 100% man and also 100% God. He wasn't part of the time God or part of the time man.
I get that doctrine. I understand that to most Jesus the man was the eternal GOD, which is why I keep asking; why would GOD send GOD to be a blood sacrifice for GOD so that man can go on sinning any way?

If any person can explain this I would feel much better about the belief that Jesus of Nazareth was, as a man, equal to GOD in all ways. Otherwise, I just can't swallow that pill. Please don't assume it is some lack of faith or placement of self in a position of any worth whatsoever. I understand Jesus to be the messiah, saviour, white lamb without blemish, the bread of eternal life, the Son of GOD, the Son of man, the Lord of lords, the King of kings, and the way to GOD.

With respect to the belief of others, their faith and hope in our Lord and GOD.

Peace

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Josiah

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I get that doctrine. I understand that to most Jesus the man was the eternal GOD


Wrong. NO ONE says or believes that. The affirmation is that Jesus has TWO natures (not one). And these are both God and Man, divine and human, inseparable. The idea that the two natures merged at some point into a different third nature is a heresy long, long, long ago universally condemned.



so that man can go on sinning any way?


Again, no one on the planet believes or proclaims that.




Jesus of Nazareth was, as a man, equal to GOD in all ways.


No one believes that. That's actually an ancient heresy long, long, long ago condemned (and forgotten until you just resurrected it).




I suggest you read posts #6 and 22.





.
 

popsthebuilder

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Wrong. NO ONE says or believes that. The affirmation is that Jesus has TWO natures (not one). And these are both God and Man, divine and human, inseparable. The idea that the two natures merged at some point into a different third nature is a heresy long, long, long ago universally condemned.






Again, no one on the planet believes or proclaims that.







No one believes that. That's actually an ancient heresy long, long, long ago condemned (and forgotten until you just resurrected it).




I suggest you read posts #





.
Just because no one words it the way I do because it makes the logical error of it painfully obvious, doesn't mean that isn't the doctrine.

Do you believe Jesus was the fullness of the One Creator GOD?

Do you think Jesus(GOD) was sacrificed?

If GOD did this to show people the way towards him, then why do most consider themselves saved without actually doing the will of GOD?

Oh, wait, is it because they believe more man made doctrine, such as atonement in our steed?

Do you realize atonement means oneness? As in it goes back to the same faulty doctrine of Jesus being the eternal fullness of GOD?

I'm sorry but I will believe the bible. The Christ is the way. If one actually believes in the Lord it will be evident in their doings.

If one proclaims the name Jesus yet does the will of the flesh, then Christ isn't with them, doesn't know them and will not here them at the judgement.

I will actively choose the side gate and the narrow path to the best of my will until I am dead. I couldn't care less if any other man or woman thinks I am right or not.

GOD will be the judge. And the self sacrifice Jesus made by the Will of GOD will not be in vain due to my vanity, pride, want, or lack of belief.

Peace

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Josiah

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Do you believe Jesus was the fullness of the One Creator GOD?


See post # 6.

The Bible states that JESUS (you know, the one born of Mary) was at Creation. Is the Bible wrong?




Do you think Jesus(GOD) was sacrificed?


See post # 6. The Bible says that JESUS died on the Cross. Is the Bible wrong?



why do most consider themselves saved without actually doing the will of GOD?

Because they are Christians, not modern Jews, Muslims or Bhakti Hindus. Christians believe that JESUS is the Savior, not themselves. Thus, being Christians, they look to Christ for salvation, to the Cross and Empty Tomb, rather than in the mirror. Those who look in the mirror for justifiation/salvation are, by definition, not Christians.



I'm sorry but I will believe the bible


Good. Then affirm all in post # 6. And with historic Christianity, condemn the horrible teachings of Arius as the heresy it is. See post # 22.




.
 

popsthebuilder

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Josiah,

Does it say Jesus was at creation, or that Christ(the spirit of GOD) was before the creation of the earth? Could you please post references to specific scripture to actually support what you claim?

I believe the bible that Jesus was crusified. What I am having trouble finding in Scripture is that GOD killed himself, and how that relates to our salvation. Please post references for specific scripture supporting this claim.


I too believe in the saving work of the Christ on many levels. And if other Christians also believe in Christ and his self sacrifice then how can they let His blood be in vain by not following his teachings and example? Or did he teach to continue in sin?

Please reference specific scripture to support your claim that for one to be saved though Christ and likewise be seen by GOD as His children that they must negate the teachings and example and self sacrifice of Jesus, i.e. continue in sin against scripture.

I will and do affirm the teachings of the bible and they don't agree with your points as far as I can tell. I hope I'm wrong, and I hope you can show that I am wrong by referencing specific scripture as asked.

Peace


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Josiah

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Does it say Jesus was at creation, or that Christ(the spirit of GOD) was before the creation of the earth? Could you please post references to specific scripture to actually support what you claim?


See Hebrews 1:2, John 1:1-16, John 17:5, etc., etc., etc.

No, "Christ" is not "spirit", it is the OFFICE that Jesus holds as the Messiah. Jesus and Christ are one and the same: Jesus simply being the Greek form of his personal name and Christ being the Greek form of his title. When Jesus speaks of himself, he is speaking of himself. REad the Scriptures listed here.




In support of Scripture and Christianity against the horrible heretic, Arius


The TWO Natures of Christ.... FULLY God and man, inseparable.



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



EVEN MORE SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1-16 [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. [9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - JESUS - I had." NOT, "that just my divine nature but not human nature had"


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity but not me." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: JESUS is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you (Jesus) know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (JESUS)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us" JESUS is God. And He - God - gave himself for us on the Cross.


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




.
 
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popsthebuilder

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See Hebrews 1:2, John 1:1-16, John 17:5, etc., etc., etc.

No, "Christ" is not "spirit", it is the OFFICE that Jesus holds as the Messiah. Jesus and Christ are one and the same: Jesus simply being the Greek form of his personal name and Christ being the Greek form of his title. When Jesus speaks of himself, he is speaking of himself. REad the Scriptures listed here.




In support of Scripture and Christianity against the horrible heretic, Arius


The TWO Natures of Christ.... FULLY God and man, inseparable.



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



EVEN MORE SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1-16 [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. [9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - JESUS - I had." NOT, "that just my divine nature but not human nature had"


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity but not me." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: JESUS is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you (Jesus) know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (JESUS)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us" JESUS is God. And He - God - gave himself for us on the Cross.


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




.
I'm going to review the scripture you referenced and I never said Jesus wasn't the Christ. But you should know that if you are genuinely attempting to help someone understand a thing, the best way to do that isn't to repeatedly copy and paste the same thing over and over once it has already been discussed. It puts out a feeling of contempt or animosity that isn't productive towards any learning anything. Thanks for posting something different at least in part. I will review it when I have more privacy.

Happy fourth.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

popsthebuilder

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See Hebrews 1:2, John 1:1-16, John 17:5, etc., etc., etc.

No, "Christ" is not "spirit", it is the OFFICE that Jesus holds as the Messiah. Jesus and Christ are one and the same: Jesus simply being the Greek form of his personal name and Christ being the Greek form of his title. When Jesus speaks of himself, he is speaking of himself. REad the Scriptures listed here.




In support of Scripture and Christianity against the horrible heretic, Arius


The TWO Natures of Christ.... FULLY God and man, inseparable.



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



EVEN MORE SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1-16 [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. [9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - JESUS - I had." NOT, "that just my divine nature but not human nature had"


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity but not me." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: JESUS is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you (Jesus) know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (JESUS)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us" JESUS is God. And He - God - gave himself for us on the Cross.


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




.
Josiah, I have to comment on something.

You said Christ is not a spirit. That, to me, is wrong on many levels, but it is contradictory to what you said and keep saying.

Did you not say that Christ is GOD? Eternally, and not of, but the same substance?

Yes you did and do.

Now must I find the scripture, and the words of Jesus that state that GOD is a spirit?

Somewhere you must concede.

Is scripture lying or are you really confused?

Scripture says GOD is a spirit

You say Jesus is was and always will be GOD.

So it stands to surmise that Jesus the Christ is too spirit right?

You really are started to get quite twisted in your own knot of confusion.

Is this the dual spirit or dual nature thing?

Also can you show me scripture speaking of Christ as an office?

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

visionary

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Elizabeth knew who was in the womb of Mary.

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women,and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?…

If this verbal exchange between Mary and Elizabeth were to be interpreted as having taken place in Aramaic or even to have employed some Hebrew, the title attributed by Elizabeth to Mary, "the mother of my Lord," which is "he meter tou kyriou mou" in Greek, could conceivably be taken as a reference to Yeshua as Adonai, "my Lord," a term only used as a substitute for the His divine name, JHWH.
 

popsthebuilder

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Elizabeth knew who was in the womb of Mary.

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women,and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?…

If this verbal exchange between Mary and Elizabeth were to be interpreted as having taken place in Aramaic or even to have employed some Hebrew, the title attributed by Elizabeth to Mary, "the mother of my Lord," which is "he meter tou kyriou mou" in Greek, could conceivably be taken as a reference to Yeshua as Adonai, "my Lord," a term only used as a substitute for the His divine name, JHWH.
I actually set up when I noticed you had posted here.

Your input is usually very telling and quite informative. However, due most likely to my own ignorance; I am confused as to exactly what the message is you are trying to make clear here.

Can you help me to understand what it was you where asserting please?

Really, at least for me, your perspective is very welcome and respected. I just couldn't wrap my head around it. Maybe still sleeping.

I noticed since your postings on the nature of hell that indeed, it has been misconstrued to mean eternal torment instead of lack of existence or utter destruction.

Thank you for posting.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

visionary

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I actually set up when I noticed you had posted here.

Your input is usually very telling and quite informative. However, due most likely to my own ignorance; I am confused as to exactly what the message is you are trying to make clear here.

Can you help me to understand what it was you where asserting please?

Really, at least for me, your perspective is very welcome and respected. I just couldn't wrap my head around it. Maybe still sleeping.

I noticed since your postings on the nature of hell that indeed, it has been misconstrued to mean eternal torment instead of lack of existence or utter destruction.

Thank you for posting.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
"My Lord" is the same as saying "My God"... Lord of Lords...

Lord of Lords

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords,the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.

Revelation 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful..... 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh He has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

1 Timothy 6:15 which he will display at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

What I am saying is Yeshua is God in the flesh.
 
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