Transgender bathrooms

tango

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I could accept that, not sure if the women could though

They work fine where I've seen them in the UK. Once you've done what needs doing in the cubicle you come out, wash your hands, and move on. The person in the next cubicle is just as likely to be a woman as a man.

One place I've seen has a communal fountain-like thing for hand washing. There's a big bar that goes all the way around it at ground level and if you stand on the bar it activates the water. You don't need privacy to wash your hands, so it doesn't matter if the person nearby washing their hands has different parts - by then everybody is fully dressed and covered up.
 

tango

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I think there is SOME consensus here that Obamas' order to have all unisex public bathrooms is not good. He'll prevail no matter what because this is purely POLITICAL...... the LGBT community is a very, very powerful one and their quickly growing agenda gets uncritical, unexamined promoting by the media and the Democratic Party simply because it is viewed as coming from a discriminated against, persecuted group. I don't think it is possible to even have a discussion about the validity of its demands.... this is kept EMOTIONAL.

A lot of arguments do little more than appeal to emotion, although typically an emotional appeal will be little more than "and what am I supposed to do here?" while ignoring what everyone else is supposed to do if you get your way. It's absurd to reject the "deal with it" approach while simultaneously expecting unknown numbers of others to "deal with it" if they are unhappy with your proposed solution.

The reason I keep coming back to individual cubicles is because it makes all these issues go away in a single hit. Nobody has to deal with anything because nobody needs to know who is in the next cubicle or what they are doing. It caters to the needs of the transgendered community without creating an imposition on women who don't want to be undressing in front of people who are anatomically male and who present themselves as men but feel like saying they identify as female for today. It caters to the genuinely transgendered without exposing people (literally and figuratively) to abuse from those who would take advantage of a chance in the law. And along the way it caters for all sorts of other people as well, specifically people who need to help someone of the opposite sex in the bathroom.

I don't know what will result. I fear for children. I think women in particular will be troubled and will have one more (really BIG) reason to avoid public restrooms (perhaps to their own ill health and disababling, lol). But this I do know: As soon as the dust settles, the LGBT political forces will move on to another front.

People keep talking about this as if it were a child protection issue when it really isn't. People worry that predatory men will have access to their daughters but apparently ignore the fact that these same predatory men have had access to the sons since, well, since the time public restrooms first appeared.

Please don't misread me. I have nothing against LGBT persons and I agree that AT TIMES, there has been persecution (but that's another discussion - LOTS get discriminated against: fat people, ugly people, non-English speaking people, old people, shall I go on?). And I think we - as a community - should do REASONABLE things to address REAL issues. I just wonder about this one.... But then I'm STILL back in the redefinition of marriage to eliminate civil unions, a LGBT battle they already won). It is probably the most powerful political force in the USA today (ironically founded on the premise of being powerless, persecuted); as my father says, "what is, is." They will win the day on this. SOMEDAY, saner minds may prevail..... and maybe not.

This is why I like the idea of a solution that meets all sorts of current needs, the needs of the transgendered being just one. It's also handy in that it means that if the transgendered community truly does want to be treated just like everybody else they get their wish; if they just want something to shout about (i.e. they want to be treated equally except in areas where they demand this or that special treatment) they'll have to break cover and say it. Of course since the "transgendered community" are no more homogenous than "the heterosexual community" or "the white community" the chances are there will be some who are happy with it and some who are not.
 

Josiah

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The reason I keep coming back to individual cubicles is because it makes all these issues go away in a single hit. Nobody has to deal with anything because nobody needs to know who is in the next cubicle or what they are doing.


Respected..... I think understood..... but if I MAY.....


1. Do we HAVE to respond (perhaps in very big ways) to every expressed "need?" Does "reasonable" come into play at all? Just a thought.... Because I'm pretty sure the list of what the LGBT activists want is never-ending, and IMO, each item is NOT unquestionable, unexaminable simply because it comes from ones who are at times persecuted (as MANY types are). I don't think it should be disregarded because it comes from a tiny subgroup of society (that WOULD be discriminating) but I think it needs to be reasonable.


2. While I too expressed some openness to getting rid of urinals and installing only toilets - with FULL floor-to-ceiling petitions OR simply having all private, single-person-only restrooms, neither is simple or cheap. And I doubt we can soundproof all this (at least not reasonably). PERSONALLY, as a guy (who is not at all prudish, lol) I'd be okay with restrooms but there ARE noises and I think this would be absolutely RIPE for a whole host of offensive and potentially abusive things (which I will not mention here) - that I suspect the females would be more sensitive to. And of course, I go back to my point: Be thoughtful and respectful and considerate to those IN THE RESTROOM (noted by the "MEN" or "WOMEN" sign on the door).... mind your own business...... don't display anything or look for anything..... wash your hands..... throw the towel in the trash..... leave. I think this has worked for BILLIONS of people of ALL types for a very, very long time (some of whom have been LGBT), and I see no reason why it can't continue to work fine.

3. If we built full walls around each toilet - put a full, solid, lockable door, essentially soundproof - then your "solution" (to what?) has much going for it. But is that reasonable? Necessary? Would it mean great costs? Would it likely mean far fewer could be served and thus longer lines (talk to your wife about this! They've had this reality for a long time - seems it would get worse with several toilets removed for the space, and we guys would learn what long waits are all about, lol).


I think in SMALL venues, I think a very simple "solution" exists. My wife and I have a fave fish restaurant - quite small. They USED to have two restrooms - a MEN and a WOMEN restroom, although both small and with just a toilet and sink. Last time we were there, the signs were changed to simple "RESTROOM" and a notation, "Please lock door behind you" on the door and inside. Actually speeds things up for BOTH - and since only one could ever use it anyway, we simply now have 2 "family" non-gender restrooms. But this restaurant maybe has 30 people in it, including staff, at MAX. Its a little harder at the ballpark when you have 50,000..... or a playhouse when 500 all hit the restrooms during the 15 minute intermission. I don't think this is a workable solution. EASIER at big venues is to have a FEW (cuz we're talking at most 0.3 %) "Family Restrooms" for all those special cases - but this would need to be for FUTURE construction, as a part of the building code, it would be very difficult to make this retroactive.




Of course since the "transgendered community" are no more homogenous than "the heterosexual community" or "the white community" the chances are there will be some who are happy with it and some who are not.


I suspect you are correct. Some of that 0.3% (MAX) won't like anything that is done. And, again, my hunch is, no matter what is done - we'll move on to the next thing the LGBT political activies demand because of the persecution they face.... But that's no excuse to not consider this one.


Thank you for your thoughts! They are GOOD ones!


- Josiah
 

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I think in schools it is a child protection issue though. But they don't even dare to go to the bathroom there because they're bullied. Just have seperate things. Don't put people together anymore if they can't act normal.
 

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tango

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Respected..... I think understood..... but if I MAY.....

1. Do we HAVE to respond (perhaps in very big ways) to every expressed "need?" Does "reasonable" come into play at all? Just a thought.... Because I'm pretty sure the list of what the LGBT activists want is never-ending, and IMO, each item is NOT unquestionable, unexaminable simply because it comes from ones who are at times persecuted (as MANY types are). I don't think it should be disregarded because it comes from a tiny subgroup of society (that WOULD be discriminating) but I think it needs to be reasonable.

No, we don't need to respond to every single thing that a small minority wants. But if we can respond to what they want and in a way that also offers a benefit to other groups of people (especially where they may be far less vocal about their needs) while also making life generally better for everyone, it seems like an obvious opportunity to kill multiple birds with one stone.

2. While I too expressed some openness to getting rid of urinals and installing only toilets - with FULL floor-to-ceiling petitions OR simply having all private, single-person-only restrooms, neither is simple or cheap. And I doubt we can soundproof all this (at least not reasonably). PERSONALLY, as a guy (who is not at all prudish, lol) I'd be okay with restrooms but there ARE noises and I think this would be absolutely RIPE for a whole host of offensive and potentially abusive things (which I will not mention here) - that I suspect the females would be more sensitive to. And of course, I go back to my point: Be thoughtful and respectful and considerate to those IN THE RESTROOM (noted by the "MEN" or "WOMEN" sign on the door).... mind your own business...... don't display anything or look for anything..... wash your hands..... throw the towel in the trash..... leave. I think this has worked for BILLIONS of people of ALL types for a very, very long time (some of whom have been LGBT), and I see no reason why it can't continue to work fine.

There's really no need for all that soundproofing. If you hear someone grunting in the cubicle next to you, what of it? It's a toilet cubicle and someone else is going to the toilet. Maybe I'd rather not hear someone grunting but at some point we have to accept that a public bathroom is just that. I'd rather hear someone grunting than realise a previous user didn't flush or sprinkled on the seat or whatever.

Be thoughtful and respectful is a great maxim to live by but whatever we put into place needs to keep in mind that there will always be those who are anything but thoughtful or respectful. There's no obvious way of keeping them out, so we need to be able to minimise the opportunity they have to upset people.

Things have worked for a long time, and to be honest to a large extent transgender people will already have been using the facilities that correspond to their presented gender rather than the gender assigned to them at birth. And the chances are people don't notice it - if a person wearing makeup and a skirt goes into the ladies' room, picks a cubicle, does what she needs to do and leaves, nobody will know (nor will they need to know) what's under her dress. It's only when you get into communal changing rooms that it's a bit harder to hide things, which then leads right back to the question of why we consider it acceptable to expect people to undress in front of complete strangers based on nothing more than comparable anatomy?

3. If we built full walls around each toilet - put a full, solid, lockable door, essentially soundproof - then your "solution" (to what?) has much going for it. But is that reasonable? Necessary? Would it mean great costs? Would it likely mean far fewer could be served and thus longer lines (talk to your wife about this! They've had this reality for a long time - seems it would get worse with several toilets removed for the space, and we guys would learn what long waits are all about, lol).

Never mind the soundproofing, it just means buying 7x4 sheets instead of 4x4 sheets. The cubicles would be much the same as they are now, maybe we'd get rid of urinals (which would suit me just fine, I hate the things) and replace them with a couple of extra cubicles. It would hopefully reduce lines because you'd immediately overcome the situation where there are 15 ladies standing in line while the men's room is empty (so at a stroke there's a benefit to women, who are approximately 50% of the population).

I think in SMALL venues, I think a very simple "solution" exists. My wife and I have a fave fish restaurant - quite small. They USED to have two restrooms - a MEN and a WOMEN restroom, although both small and with just a toilet and sink. Last time we were there, the signs were changed to simple "RESTROOM" and a notation, "Please lock door behind you" on the door and inside. Actually speeds things up for BOTH - and since only one could ever use it anyway, we simply now have 2 "family" non-gender restrooms. But this restaurant maybe has 30 people in it, including staff, at MAX. Its a little harder at the ballpark when you have 50,000..... or a playhouse when 500 all hit the restrooms during the 15 minute intermission. I don't think this is a workable solution. EASIER at big venues is to have a FEW (cuz we're talking at most 0.3 %) "Family Restrooms" for all those special cases - but this would need to be for FUTURE construction, as a part of the building code, it would be very difficult to make this retroactive.

Where a facility is literally a single toilet bowl and a single hand basin it's absurd to have them marked as "male" or "female" facilities - as you say it's for one person and it makes no difference whether the occupant is male or female or something in between.

The thing is that a restaurant that can cope with maybe 30 people will have two or three bathroom stalls. A theme park with 50,000 visitors will have vastly more bathroom stalls, and will also have vastly more income to modify them. It's not even as if everything needs to be done at once - if it's done in stages you can have a men's room, a women's room, and a general restroom. Over time as the restrooms are upgraded they become unisex. So right off the cuff anyone uncertain about which bathroom to use can seek out a unisex facility, and over time things adapt.

In the playhouse where 500 people hit the bathroom in a 15 minute intermission it makes sense to have full usage of every stall. That's not achieved if half the people standing in line can only use half the stalls. If you've got lines outside one room while the other room is mostly empty, you're slowing down the process of getting everyone through the bathroom.

I suspect you are correct. Some of that 0.3% (MAX) won't like anything that is done. And, again, my hunch is, no matter what is done - we'll move on to the next thing the LGBT political activies demand because of the persecution they face.... But that's no excuse to not consider this one.

I suspect at least some of the LGBT community will find a reason to insist that they need special treatment, but at least changes can offer benefits to everyone else even if the only benefit regarding the transgender community is that it forces them to break cover and admit that they don't actually want to be treated the same as everyone else.
 

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Yeah it is crazy anymore
 

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I think in schools it is a child protection issue though. But they don't even dare to go to the bathroom there because they're bullied. Just have seperate things. Don't put people together anymore if they can't act normal.

If kids are already bullied in the bathroom how does it hurt to give them more chance to stick together? If boys are bullying boys and girls are bullying girls it clearly doesn't offer a whole lot of protection keeping them segregated.
 

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I used to play with the kids of the neighbours when I was 26 or so. They were girls. Then the 12 year old brother came play too and he tried to open my door with a coin. Those teenagers nowadays are nuts and sexed up by all the porn they see when they're 12 or younger. I heard some weird stories from someone when he went to high school.

http://www.redstate.com/joesquire/2016/05/13/teachers-perspective-transgender-bathrooms-schools/

Sure, it wouldn't hurt to have locks that take more than a coin to open them from the outside.

Even so, if the rule is that men use the men's room and women use the women's room there's nothing to stop a man walking into the women's room with a coin to see who he can catch out. There's also nothing to stop a taller guy from going into the women's room and just looking over the cubicle wall. I've seen a few places where it looks like it would be pretty easy to lock the bathroom from the inside, in which case someone with ill intent could simply wait for his mark to go to the bathroom, follow her in, lock the door, and then watch her over the cubicle door. What, if anything, could she do from that point?
 

Josiah

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Even so, if the rule is that men use the men's room and women use the women's room there's nothing to stop a man walking into the women's room with a coin to see who he can catch out.


Respected, but I think there is a difference between a man violating the law and entering the women's restroom and the Law welcoming, inviting him to do so.

I think Messy is right: Yes, IF we essentially convert ALL restrooms into a collection of PRIVATE restrooms - with full soundproof walls around each toilet, solid doors with very good locks - yeah, we've probably addressed the issue. We'd then just have rooms that contain many private restrooms. But I'M not sure that's practical OR necessary. And it MIGHT mean that SOME (?) of those at most 0.3% of the public find this acceptable - but does it also mean the rest of us get LONG, LONG lines, that businesses and schools and assembly ventures (such as stadiums, etc.) have HUGE costs to build enormous new facilities?

I don't know.... seems like for for many decades, none of these at most 0.3% said anything or seemed to have any "issues." I still think it overwhelmingly works to RESPECT those in the restroom (MEN if its' the MEN'S room, WOMEN if its the WOMEN"S room)..... mind your own business..... wash your hands.... toss towel in trash..... leave. Seems to have worked for billions of people for centuries. Of course, I'm aware that perhaps up to 2% of the men in the MEN'S room are gay. But how would I know? Why does it matter? As long as we are all RESPECTING the men in the men's room.... minding our own business..... showing off nothing, peaking nowhere.... washing our hands.... throwing the towel in the trash.... and leaving. It's called respect, courtesy.... minding your own business while you do your own business. Doesn't seem like rocket science to THIS bloat, seems to have worked well for several billion people for many decades. But what do I know? And IF something can be done that is reasonable (and courteous, respectful) I'm not opposed at all. I gave a couple of POSSIBLE suggestions that might HELP anyway. But as it is, restrooms are NOT set up to be the unisex things Obama is mandating all immediately be - appropriate or not.





.
 

psalms 91

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The system isnt brioke so lets quit being PC
 

Josiah

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I just realized there's a BIG problem with one of my suggestions: That we have private, "family restrooms" for those who (for whatever reason) need or desire it. The LGBT community will scream this violates the constitution of the USA, the Supreme Court decision that "separate but equal" violates the Constitution. Suggesting they use a DIFFERENT bathroom than the gender they aren't but associate with would be rejected as unconstitutional. They'll insist on using the MEN'S or WOMEN'S. The LGBT political activists are uberlegalists about these things. It would be a natural, workable solution in SOME situations (those where it is possible) but one they will reject (and sue over). It's using the WOMEN'S or MEN'S that is their issue. Petitions or no. Including kids.
 

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I guess we could put in one for it if that is their problem. I am tired of this noise, time that some mof us stood up and make common sense come back
 

tango

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Respected, but I think there is a difference between a man violating the law and entering the women's restroom and the Law welcoming, inviting him to do so.

Very true, which is why there's no point engineering anything past a certain level because by then you're into criminal acts anyway.

I think Messy is right: Yes, IF we essentially convert ALL restrooms into a collection of PRIVATE restrooms - with full soundproof walls around each toilet, solid doors with very good locks - yeah, we've probably addressed the issue.

This is pushing into the whole over-engineering thing. The sort of man who would kick down the door to get at a woman in the bathroom is the sort of man who isn't going to respect any law anyway, in which case perhaps the best defense against him is to have other men present so they can intervene. There will obviously be an increased vulnerability at very quiet times, but no more so than the vulnerability that already exists at quiet times.

There's really no need to have fully soundproofed walls either. Is it really that big a deal if you can hear someone next to you going to the bathroom? You can hear them now, and I don't think the sound of a man using the bathroom is all that different to the sound of a woman using the bathroom.

We'd then just have rooms that contain many private restrooms. But I'M not sure that's practical OR necessary. And it MIGHT mean that SOME (?) of those at most 0.3% of the public find this acceptable - but does it also mean the rest of us get LONG, LONG lines, that businesses and schools and assembly ventures (such as stadiums, etc.) have HUGE costs to build enormous new facilities?

Huge costs? Enormous new facilities? Not at all, just replace the four-foot-high walls with seven-foot-high walls and put a better lock on the door.

I don't know.... seems like for for many decades, none of these at most 0.3% said anything or seemed to have any "issues." I still think it overwhelmingly works to RESPECT those in the restroom (MEN if its' the MEN'S room, WOMEN if its the WOMEN"S room)..... mind your own business..... wash your hands.... toss towel in trash..... leave. Seems to have worked for billions of people for centuries. Of course, I'm aware that perhaps up to 2% of the men in the MEN'S room are gay. But how would I know? Why does it matter? As long as we are all RESPECTING the men in the men's room.... minding our own business..... showing off nothing, peaking nowhere.... washing our hands.... throwing the towel in the trash.... and leaving. It's called respect, courtesy.... minding your own business while you do your own business. Doesn't seem like rocket science to THIS bloat, seems to have worked well for several billion people for many decades. But what do I know? And IF something can be done that is reasonable (and courteous, respectful) I'm not opposed at all. I gave a couple of POSSIBLE suggestions that might HELP anyway. But as it is, restrooms are NOT set up to be the unisex things Obama is mandating all immediately be - appropriate or not.

In all honesty I see the bathroom issue as something of a red herring. The other day I was in a park where the men's room was out of action so the ladies' room became a de facto unisex room. And it worked just fine, nobody seemed to have any issues with it.

A bigger issue is when it comes to people changing, e.g. after a gym or swimming session. This is a situation where people are mostly if not totally naked in front of complete strangers and it's easy to see why women don't want a man walking in and watching them change while they can't do anything about it because apparently he identifies as female today. This is what prompted my other thread about bathrooms and changing rooms.
 
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