Transgender bathrooms

[tango]

Yeah lets just open it up to anyone. Whatever happened to common sense that says if you have boy parts you use the boys and if you have guirl parts you use the girls? Why is it that common sense and intelligence go out the window to be pc?

Why is it common sense that walls between stalls aren't enough and stalls have to be in totally different rooms? Of course when you have walls that are barely worthy of the name and so little privacy in your cubicle that just about anyone could look over the wall or under the door things don't work so well, but why is that acceptable just because the people around you have comparable body parts?

Why is it common sense to create a situation where it's all but impossible to use a public bathroom at all if you have, say, a disabled spouse? If your wife needs help going to the bathroom do you (as a man) go into the ladies' room with her, or do you take her into the men's room? Unisex bathrooms make that problem go away too. Likewise if you're a father with your daughter, a mother with your son (especially if your child is disabled) you're currently left in an awkward situation.

Unisex bathrooms and unisex changing rooms work perfectly well, as long as there's adequate privacy. My wife and I used to go to the gym that had unisex changing for the swimming pool. It was pretty simple - you went into the changing room, picked a cubicle, got changed, put your stuff in a locker, and got in the pool. She and I would often share a cubicle so we only needed to take one bag and use one locker. Why is it a problem?


ETA: A solution like this would also serve another interesting function. Since it would treat the gay community and the transgender community exactly the same as everybody else, in that whatever is between your legs and however you self-identify you do the same as everybody else - you go into the bathroom, pick a cubicle, do what you need to do and leave - it would mean that if the transgender community truly do just want to be treated the same as everybody else they would get their wish, but they'd pretty much be forced into the open if their desire is to constantly seek out special treatment.

 

[psalms 91]

exactly they do want to be treated different and it is the constant pushing that has driven many people against the wall.

 

[Josiah]

Thoughts....

1. I'm a GUY. If I doubt that, all I need do is take a look.

2. I go to the MEN'S potty in respect for other MEN.... not because it will be cleaner (which it probably won't). It's not because I demand anything or that I need anything (other than certain plumbing), its in respect for the others who will be using that facility.

3. What are we talking about...... something like one-third of one percent? An article in our paper here mentioned ONE KID, ONE STUDENT at a local high school (with nearly 3000 students) making a mess, wanting special priveleges. The principle stated there were no others who had come to the attention of the school. Come on....

4. I think we may be FORCED by this 0.3% of people into having unisex and family restrooms..... putting in full petitions around all potties for privacy.... which may mean a lot less potties and longer waits and greater expenses to business and government.... but that one kid out of 3000 students who DEMANDS it may force that. Then, will the LGBT political activities move on to something else they demand?

5. Why can't all do what I do? Go..... pay attention to YOURSELF..... respect the others... don't show anything...... wash your hands.... throw the towel away.... leave. It's worked for billions of people for centuries. I'm SURE the 2% of "gays" and 0.3% of "transgender" have been fine with that for generations. Seems to work.



Life need not be so complicated.



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

Thoughts....

1. I'm a GUY. If I doubt that, all I need do is take a look.

2. I go to the MEN'S potty in respect for other MEN.... not because it will be cleaner (which it probably won't). It's not because I demand anything or that I need anything (other than certain plumbing), its in respect for the others who will be using that facility.

3. What are we talking about...... something like one-third of one percent? An article in our paper here mentioned ONE KID, ONE STUDENT at a local high school (with nearly 3000 students) making a mess, wanting special priveleges. The principle stated there were no others who had come to the attention of the school. Come on....

4. I think we may be FORCED by this 0.3% of people into having unisex and family restrooms..... putting in full petitions around all potties for privacy.... which may mean a lot less potties and longer waits and greater expenses to business and government.... but that one kid out of 3000 students who DEMANDS it may force that. Then, will the LGBT political activities move on to something else they demand?

5. Why can't all do what I do? Go..... pay attention to YOURSELF..... respect the others... don't show anything...... wash your hands.... throw the towel away.... leave. It's worked for billions of people for centuries. I'm SURE the 2% of "gays" and 0.3% of "transgender" have been fine with that for generations. Seems to work.



Life need not be so complicated.



- Josiah

Common sense and intelligence, yes, something that seems to be in short supply it seems. Thank you Josiah

 

[tango]

exactly they do want to be treated different and it is the constant pushing that has driven many people against the wall.

The thing is we don't know for sure whether they want endless special acknowledgement or whether they genuinely do just want to use the bathroom in peace. A person born a man who transitioned to become a woman, who presents as a woman, who dresses as a woman, and who lives as a woman, would clearly be out of place in the men's room. It's not hard to see why a person wearing makeup, jewelry and a dress doesn't want to use the men's bathroom. But where changing rooms are concerned it's easy to see why women don't want to be undressing in front of someone who appears to be a man, and easier still to see why women don't want to be undressing in front of anyone who cares to walk in claiming they feel female that day.

The truly transgendered really aren't a major issue, there aren't very many of them and as far as I can tell most of them don't want to draw that kind of attention to themselves anyway. The problem is the idea that anyone can claim to "feel female" that day and thereby gain the automatic right to use the women's facilities. And once again the solution, as far as I can tell, is to install cubicles that provide privacy.

We don't allow men into the women's changing areas, so why should it be any different to allow a gay man into the men's changing room or a lesbian into the women's changing room? Why is it assumed that it's OK to be expected to undress in front of total strangers just because you happen to have the same body parts? And if you're in a cubicle it doesn't matter who is in the next cubicle or what they are doing.

 

[tango]

Thoughts....

1. I'm a GUY. If I doubt that, all I need do is take a look.

2. I go to the MEN'S potty in respect for other MEN.... not because it will be cleaner (which it probably won't). It's not because I demand anything or that I need anything (other than certain plumbing), its in respect for the others who will be using that facility.

3. What are we talking about...... something like one-third of one percent? An article in our paper here mentioned ONE KID, ONE STUDENT at a local high school (with nearly 3000 students) making a mess, wanting special priveleges. The principle stated there were no others who had come to the attention of the school. Come on....

4. I think we may be FORCED by this 0.3% of people into having unisex and family restrooms..... putting in full petitions around all potties for privacy.... which may mean a lot less potties and longer waits and greater expenses to business and government.... but that one kid out of 3000 students who DEMANDS it may force that. Then, will the LGBT political activities move on to something else they demand?

5. Why can't all do what I do? Go..... pay attention to YOURSELF..... respect the others... don't show anything...... wash your hands.... throw the towel away.... leave. It's worked for billions of people for centuries. I'm SURE the 2% of "gays" and 0.3% of "transgender" have been fine with that for generations. Seems to work.



Life need not be so complicated.



- Josiah

Yep, except it becomes complicated when people suddenly start demanding changes. For those of us who are what might be called cisgender (i.e. we identify as the gender we were assigned at birth) it's pretty simple. If you've got boy bits you go to the boys' room; if you've got girl bits you go to the girls' room. It just gets messy if you were born one and have had the realignment process to become the other. You've got to use one or other bathroom but aren't really welcome in either. So what do you do?

The solution has to be to create the greatest gain for the greatest number of people. Partitions and privacy not only cater for the transgender issue that causes a lot of vocal outrage but also for much larger groups of people that have different reasons that segregated facilities cause problems. A lady I know from another forum has a disabled son. What is she supposed to do if she's out with her son? She can't be going in the men's room and her son is old enough that he can't really be in the ladies' room. He can't go to the bathroom by himself. A unisex facility means she can take him into the bathroom, help him do what he needs to do, and leave.

Full partitions around the potty won't mean there are any fewer potties, it just means the walls that currently go from about knee-height to about shoulder-height will go from maybe an inch above the floor to ceiling height. And making facilities unisex means that if you are, say, a disabled man and there's someone in the one disabled cubicle in the men's room you're not left out of luck because there's another disabled cubicle (the one previously allocated to the ladies) that you can use.

It creates a benefit for a much wider section of society, and as a side effect makes the transgender issue go away.

 

[psalms 91]

The thing is we don't know for sure whether they want endless special acknowledgement or whether they genuinely do just want to use the bathroom in peace. A person born a man who transitioned to become a woman, who presents as a woman, who dresses as a woman, and who lives as a woman, would clearly be out of place in the men's room. It's not hard to see why a person wearing makeup, jewelry and a dress doesn't want to use the men's bathroom. But where changing rooms are concerned it's easy to see why women don't want to be undressing in front of someone who appears to be a man, and easier still to see why women don't want to be undressing in front of anyone who cares to walk in claiming they feel female that day.

The truly transgendered really aren't a major issue, there aren't very many of them and as far as I can tell most of them don't want to draw that kind of attention to themselves anyway. The problem is the idea that anyone can claim to "feel female" that day and thereby gain the automatic right to use the women's facilities. And once again the solution, as far as I can tell, is to install cubicles that provide privacy.

We don't allow men into the women's changing areas, so why should it be any different to allow a gay man into the men's changing room or a lesbian into the women's changing room? Why is it assumed that it's OK to be expected to undress in front of total strangers just because you happen to have the same body parts? And if you're in a cubicle it doesn't matter who is in the next cubicle or what they are doing.

Then it shopuldnt matter if they use the bathroom associated with the parts they have does it

 

[Josiah]

Yep, except it becomes complicated when people suddenly start demanding changes. For those of us who are what might be called cisgender (i.e. we identify as the gender we were assigned at birth) it's pretty simple. If you've got boy bits you go to the boys' room; if you've got girl bits you go to the girls' room. It just gets messy if you were born one and have had the realignment process to become the other. You've got to use one or other bathroom but aren't really welcome in either. So what do you do?

IMO, respect those to whom that restroom is assigned and the people who use it. IF it says "MEN" on the door, respect the MEN who use it. Mind your own business. Don't show off anything, don't check out others. Wash your hands. Throw the towel into the trash. Leave. This seems to have worked pretty well for a very long time..... for billions of people..... it seems including homosexuals, transvestites, bi-sexuals, and all the other very rare variations. It seems to me.

The solution has to be to create the greatest gain for the greatest number of people. Partitions and privacy not only cater for the transgender issue that causes a lot of vocal outrage but also for much larger groups of people that have different reasons that segregated facilities cause problems.

... and I agree. Personally, if money and space available were totally not factors, I'd like to see PRIVATE "family" restrooms, designed for one person (and you lock the door behind you) - although I understand such has become a problem for those using them to use and sell drugs, have sex (who knows what sex), etc. I read an article that these have become a huge problem. I used these at an amusement park to which I took my niece (and I appreciated that). And I agree - in MOST cases, simply making all the "plumbing" toilets with full petitions (and thus permitting all restrooms to be unisex) would be nice. But I also don't think they are typically necessary for the 0.3% (TOPS!) who simply can respect folks..... mind their own business..... don't check out others..... wash...... put towel in trash...... leave.


And I can just .... imagine..... the ladies complaining about the "splashing sound" coming from the next cubical.... and since those petitions aren't too secure, expressing concern for their safety; I even wonder if this would be a huge help for sexual preditors. I don't think MOST guys would protest all unisex restrooms, but I predict a lot of ladies wouldn't like this at all. Could be wrong.

Full partitions around the potty won't mean there are any fewer potties, it just means the walls that currently go from about knee-height to about shoulder-height will go from maybe an inch above the floor to ceiling height.

Maybe.... but I doubt a full toilet with full petitions could replace the urinals, one for one. Seems to ME, urinals are typically far closer together than the toilets in public restrooms. And sometimes are placed in away that doesn't allow the space for people to sit down, turn around, etc. I have a hunch, for guys, well.... welcome to the lines that the ladies have been complaining about, lol. Because at most 0.3% find it hard to enter..... mind their own business...... respect others doing theirs..... wash... throw towel in the trash...... leave??? I don't know.... I see your point, it has validity, but.....



- Josiah




.

 

[Cassia]

The simplist solution is instead of having a M & W sign just have a P & V

 

[Cassia]

The real problem for me would be that of a young girl going into a closed room followed by a man and no one thinking of that girl's safety. Or would you dad's just go in there too? It's a ridiculous question to even ponder when the privacy of the gay community is placed above the needs of the children.

 

[Rens]

The real problem for me would be that of a young girl going into a closed room followed by a man and no one thinking of that girl's safety. Or would you dad's just go in there too? It's a ridiculous question to even ponder when the privacy of the gay community is placed above the needs of the children.

I meet dads in the ladies room who bring their daughters there. I go with my boys to the ladies' room. Noone cares. That's what you get with single parents and dads' days where dad alone takes care of the kids. Suppose a single dad with small daughters has to go. He can't take them with him to the men's room or they see all those grown ups and if women start to yell in the ladies room he has no choice but to find a tree somewhere. I have no idea how they do that. It was always very unhandy when I had to go and they were really small. I'd just take them with me in a cubicle for the handicapped, because those were bigger and we all went there.

 

[psalms 91]

I dont really have a problem with that so much althopugh it is not ideal

 

[Cassia]

I meet dads in the ladies room who bring their daughters there. I go with my boys to the ladies' room. Noone cares. That's what you get with single parents and dads' days where dad alone takes care of the kids. Suppose a single dad with small daughters has to go. He can't take them with him to the men's room or they see all those grown ups and if women start to yell in the ladies room he has no choice but to find a tree somewhere. I have no idea how they do that. It was always very unhandy when I had to go and they were really small. I'd just take them with me in a cubicle for the handicapped, because those were bigger and we all went there.

It's not the parents with children that go into the washrooms that worries me. It's the children that go in there alone and are at risk from strangers.

 

[Josiah]

It's not the parents with children that go into the washrooms that worries me. It's the children that go in there alone and are at risk from strangers.

I think the Obama Administration is mandating that all public restrooms be unisex... and I DO fear what will result from schools, churches, businesses, officies being forced to remove the "Men" and "Women" and replace with "Whatever"

 

[Cassia]

I think the Obama Administration is mandating that all public restrooms be unisex... and I DO fear what will result from schools, churches, businesses, officies being forced to remove the "Men" and "Women" and replace with "Whatever"

Yah, it's not a good method. You would think they would at least have something separate for children but that would be too 'unsupervised' SMH

 

[Rens]

It's not the parents with children that go into the washrooms that worries me. It's the children that go in there alone and are at risk from strangers.

Yes, they should just not let them go in alone. But that was also the case when there were men's rooms. Dennis Jernigan once said that, that he saw such a creep when he was a kid, in a men's room.

 

[tango]

Then it shopuldnt matter if they use the bathroom associated with the parts they have does it

Aside from the fact that a person who is anatomically female (in that they have female parts) but has undergone gender realignment such that they have facial hair and masculine muscles is going to look seriously out of place in the ladies' room, just as a person with male parts who wears makeup and a dress is going to look out of place in the men's room. But if there's only one room nobody is out of place, whatever is between their legs and however they self-identify.

For good measure it also means people can protect their children. If a man is out with his daughter and feels the need to protect her in the bathroom there's not a lot he can do. But with unisex bathrooms he can stand guard right outside her cubicle if he feels the need to do so.

These facilities already exist in a number of locations in the UK and they actually work pretty well.

 

[psalms 91]

I could accept that, not sure if the women could though

 

[Josiah]

I think there is SOME consensus here that Obamas' order to have all unisex public bathrooms is not good. He'll prevail no matter what because this is purely POLITICAL...... the LGBT community is a very, very powerful one and their quickly growing agenda gets uncritical, unexamined promoting by the media and the Democratic Party simply because it is viewed as coming from a discriminated against, persecuted group. I don't think it is possible to even have a discussion about the validity of its demands.... this is kept EMOTIONAL.

I don't know what will result. I fear for children. I think women in particular will be troubled and will have one more (really BIG) reason to avoid public restrooms (perhaps to their own ill health and disababling, lol). But this I do know: As soon as the dust settles, the LGBT political forces will move on to another front.

Please don't misread me. I have nothing against LGBT persons and I agree that AT TIMES, there has been persecution (but that's another discussion - LOTS get discriminated against: fat people, ugly people, non-English speaking people, old people, shall I go on?). And I think we - as a community - should do REASONABLE things to address REAL issues. I just wonder about this one.... But then I'm STILL back in the redefinition of marriage to eliminate civil unions, a LGBT battle they already won). It is probably the most powerful political force in the USA today (ironically founded on the premise of being powerless, persecuted); as my father says, "what is, is." They will win the day on this. SOMEDAY, saner minds may prevail..... and maybe not.



Sorry.



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

I would love saner minds but I doubt it. I think we are seeing the scripture fulfilled that says good will be evil and evil good, I think we are also seeing the end of the age as well and the bible tells us iot will get worse and worse. It is crazy times and only God can lead us through it, the rest will be in it I am afraid but you cant tell anyone anything anymore, they laugh at all the doom and gllom and they will till the day it hitys and then it will be God that will have the final say