Muhammad Ali (Yes, this is a Theology thread)

[Lamb]

I think that is speaking of all, we either grow that faith or we kill it. I believe that everyone is given a measure of faith, some find God, some make other gods, some just lose faith epriod

Our faith is grown by the Holy Spirit who uses His Word. God builds us up. We are the ones who turn away. Then He brings us back and builds us up again.

 

[psalms 91]

Our faith is grown by the Holy Spirit who uses His Word. God builds us up. We are the ones who turn away. Then He brings us back and builds us up again.

Yes, if we choose to come back

 

[Lamb]

Yes, if we choose to come back

I see you keep putting it back on man instead of seeing God's work.

In biblical times the men fished with nets. They laid their nets out and pulled them into the boats. The fish in their nets had no idea what was going on, they were caught not because they wanted to be caught. Jesus told the disciples he would make them fishers of men. We can see through that analogy that "choice" isn't how the fish were caught. It's the fishermen who scoop them up. If a fish jumps out of the net or boat, sometimes the fisherman would try for him again. And again. Sometimes those fish were just lost because they left. But the ones in the net, they were there because of the fishermen, not by a choice of wanting to be in the net.

 

[Alithis]

Your sins were first forgiven at the cross. God works in you to show you your sin. Then he gives you faith to believe the good news that your sins are forgiven. It happened at the cross first for you. Then he gives it to you by grace through faith.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Alithis]

Our faith is grown by the Holy Spirit who uses His Word. God builds us up. We are the ones who turn away. Then He brings us back and builds us up again.

does he build us by our disobedience or by our obedience ?

 

[Alithis]

I see you keep putting it back on man instead of seeing God's work.

In biblical times the men fished with nets. They laid their nets out and pulled them into the boats. The fish in their nets had no idea what was going on, they were caught not because they wanted to be caught. Jesus told the disciples he would make them fishers of men. We can see through that analogy that "choice" isn't how the fish were caught. It's the fishermen who scoop them up. If a fish jumps out of the net or boat, sometimes the fisherman would try for him again. And again. Sometimes those fish were just lost because they left. But the ones in the net, they were there because of the fishermen, not by a choice of wanting to be in the net.

So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.



- got to Love the scripture ..it is full of instructions in righteousness

 

[Josiah]

Then we do not have to do anything

In terms of justification - EXACTLY! That's why Christianity affirms that Jesus is The SAVIOR. Not helper..... not enabler.... not possibility-maker.... not PART Savior. If it was Jesus does 50% and we do 50% then Jesus would be HALF Savior or PART Savior and it would be misleading and inaccurate (if not lying!) to say one believes in Jesus as their Savior when they don't.


Please re-read the opening post. Those who confuse God and self.... Gospel and Law..... justification with sanctification..... end up destroying Law AND Gospel (and Christianity), promoting (likely unwittingly) the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and/or Bhatki Hinduism. See the opening post...


Thank you!


Pax Soli Christi!


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

I refuse to have confusion which is what you get when you attempt to spereate the two, it also leads those not knowledgeable to believe once and done which is not the thing thta scripture teachs, salvation is a continuing effort as Christ has commanded us to do certain things, not because we have to but because we are Hios. You want to continue the confusion as is evidence d by the posts here then go ahead but then you wonder where the confusion comes from/

 

[Josiah]

I refuse to have confusion which is what you get when you attempt to spereate the two, it also leads those not knowledgeable to believe once and done which is not the thing thta scripture teachs, salvation is a continuing effort as Christ has commanded us to do certain things, not because we have to but because we are Hios. You want to continue the confusion as is evidence d by the posts here then go ahead but then you wonder where the confusion comes from/

So, Jesus STARTED justification/salvation?
He's not the Savior but the Starter?
When is it finished?
Do WE finish it (in which case we're the Savior) or does Jesus (in which case He is the Savior)?
When Jesus STARTS it, how "saved" are we at that point, enough to go to heaven?
What is accomplished toward our justification when we get to 25% finished? 50% finished?
How long does it take most to finish what Jesus started? Do we get extra time in Purgatory if we didn't have enough time to save ourselves?
Do you call Jesus your "Savior?" WHY if he didn't save you?

Seems REALLY confusing......
Sounds a lot like Bhatki Hinduism to me.....



.

 

[Lamb]

So, Jesus STARTED justification/salvation?
He's not the Savior but the Starter?
When is it finished?
Do WE finish it (in which case we're the Savior) or does Jesus (in which case He is the Savior)?
When Jesus STARTS it, how "saved" are we at that point, enough to go to heaven?
What is accomplished toward our justification when we get to 25% finished? 50% finished?
How long does it take most to finish what Jesus started? Do we get extra time in Purgatory if we didn't have enough time to save ourselves?
Do you call Jesus your "Savior?" WHY if he didn't save you?

Seems REALLY confusing......
Sounds a lot like Bhatki Hinduism to me.....



.

These are excellent questions and points that turn us back to the one true Savior. Satan lured Adam and Eve into thinking they could be gods and he continues to this day to lure man into turning from God and to himself instead.

 

[psalms 91]

Nope our salvation conrtinues, can we lose it, of course, if we can lose it then it is an ongoing thing, not something you do and it is finished. It is not finished as we are called to walk in the spirit and be obedienne to Christ, that is ongoing not once and done

 

[Lamb]

Nope our salvation conrtinues, can we lose it, of course, if we can lose it then it is an ongoing thing, not something you do and it is finished. It is not finished as we are called to walk in the spirit and be obedienne to Christ, that is ongoing not once and done

We are called to live our faith not to gain salvation. That's the problem we're having with that type of theology in that you feel you're contributing.

 

[psalms 91]

The problem is that if you dont do these things you can lose your salvation. That is a fact so better to know what you should do rather than believe that it is not ongoing

 

[Alithis]

We are called to live our faith not to gain salvation. That's the problem we're having with that type of theology in that you feel you're contributing.

and how does one live by faith ?.. one obeyed god having faith in him that if they obey him he will do as he has said he will do ... note HE will do it .
we obey becaseu HE will do it .

how did abraham live by faith ? ,,, hmm he went and did what God told him to do . yup thats what he did .
you will never ever separate obedience to god from salvation.

God tells us to repent .... if i refuse to .. am i obeying god or disobeying god ?

 

[Alithis]

These are excellent questions and points that turn us back to the one true Savior. Satan lured Adam and Eve into thinking they could be gods and he continues to this day to lure man into turning from God and to himself instead.

have you turned back to the one true saviour if one is walking in disobedience to him.. is that what you would call ..turning too him to take up your cross and follow him ?

 

[Lamb]

The problem is that if you dont do these things you can lose your salvation. That is a fact so better to know what you should do rather than believe that it is not ongoing

You can lose it yes. But you can't gain it since you are already there.

 

[psalms 91]

No, your not already there or else we are back to everyone is saved

 

[Lamb]

No, your not already there or else we are back to everyone is saved

I have faith, bill. Not everyone does. I disagree with your idea that everyone has it. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[psalms 91]

Every man is given a measure of faith that is biblical. What we do is the question, do we grow it in Christ or do we kill it

 

[Josiah]

have you turned back to the one true saviour if one is walking in disobedience to him.. is that what you would call ..turning too him to take up your cross and follow him ?

We're still waiting for the names of ten - just ten, a very tiny percentage of the 7.3 BILLION people on the planet - just ten living people who are "obedient" to all God has said, who never sin because they never miss the mark ("sin") but always hit the mark (24/7). Just ten. So far, you haven't been able to name even one - not even one. Maybe that's because all your going on and on and on about folks who have ceased to sin, who are obedient - maybe they don't exist. Maybe Scripture is right and you are wrong, the Scriptures that state to Chrsitians, "If anyone claims to be without sin, he is a liar and deceives only himself." "No one is righteous, no, not even one."


But you SO WELL make the point of the opening post. And I'm grateful for that.




- Josiah