Muhammad Ali (Yes, this is a Theology thread)

[psalms 91]

I have never heard the bible speak of "must open by our faith" so how does that work since faith tells us about Jesus and God is the one who lets us know about Him? Whenever someone says it's a gift but then you have to do such and such, beware of that scam, I mean you'd beware if a friend told you about some great gift you could receive in the mail, but first you gotta do this and this and this, does that still seem like a gift to you? If you received a call on the phone from someone telling you you won something but then you have to send them a check first, does that seem like a free gift?

How about I offer you a hundred dollars for free but then I set you up with some difficult task you can't accomplish (and only Jesus could do it perfectly) in order to obtain that hundred bucks, does it still seem like good news to you or does that cause fear and dread you might not make it?

What does Romans 10:9-10 say? Does it not say that we must confess withm our mouth and believe in our hearts? This is not something new or even something made up

 

[Josiah]

What does Romans 10:9-10 say? Does it not say that we must confess withm our mouth and believe in our hearts? This is not something new or even something made up

Law is Law. Gospel is Gospel. BOTH are true.

When they are confused, entangled, mixed up - such as by making one subject to the other - then they cease to be Law and Gospel. The Gospel is the FREE GIFT of God's unconditional love, His boundless mercy, His salvation ALL EXCLUSIVELY because of Christ who is THE one, only, singular SAVIOR - HIS doings, HIS works, HIS Cross, HIS love, HIS mercy, HIS life, HIS righteousness, HIS sacrifice, HIS death, HIS resurrection.... HIM. Alone. As THE Savior.

When what we receive from God DEPENDS on what we first do - then it's no longer a gift, it's no longer unconditional love, it's no longer mercy. ONE of the unavoidable by-products of confusing, entangling Law and Gospel is that both cease to be (much, anyway).... Christ ceases to be Savior (perhaps at best a helper or enabler or possibility-maker).... Christianity ceases to be CHRISTianity and is forsaken for some form of modern Judaism, Islam or Bhakti Hinduism. Please read the opening post.

Yes, the LAW says we are to repent. But the GOSPEL is not dependent on that, God does not forgive BECAUSE we earned it by jumping through a hoop.... He forgives us because of HIS heart, HIS mercy, HIS Gospel.... because CHRIST "jumped through the hoop" of the Cross. It is in view of CHRIST, not us. The Law calls us to look in the mirror - and see what WE are doing in reply to His call. The Gospel invites us to look at the Cross - and embrace all that is ours as a result.

See the opening post: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?2020-Muhammad-Ali-(Yes-this-is-a-Theology-thread)

See http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?1900-LAW-and-GOSPEL



Thank you!



Pax



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

The only thing I have gotten by everyones attempt to seperate them is confusion and I know that is not what God intended so I have to believe that they are made to work together, not seperate

 

[Josiah]

Law is Law. Gospel is Gospel. BOTH are true. Let BOTH stand.

When they are confused, entangled, mixed up - such as by making one subject to the other - then they cease to be Law and Gospel. The Gospel is the FREE GIFT of God's unconditional love, His boundless mercy, His salvation ALL EXCLUSIVELY because of Christ who is THE one, only, singular SAVIOR - HIS doings, HIS works, HIS Cross, HIS love, HIS mercy, HIS life, HIS righteousness, HIS sacrifice, HIS death, HIS resurrection.... HIM. Alone. As THE Savior.

When what we receive from God DEPENDS on what we first do - then it's no longer a gift, it's no longer unconditional love, it's no longer mercy. ONE of the unavoidable by-products of confusing, entangling Law and Gospel is that both cease to be (much, anyway).... Christ ceases to be Savior (perhaps at best a helper or enabler or possibility-maker).... Christianity ceases to be CHRISTianity and is forsaken for some form of modern Judaism, Islam or Bhakti Hinduism. Please read the opening post.

Yes, the LAW says we are to repent. But the GOSPEL is not dependent on that, God does not forgive BECAUSE we earned it by jumping through a hoop.... He forgives us because of HIS heart, HIS mercy, HIS Gospel.... because CHRIST "jumped through the hoop" of the Cross. It is in view of CHRIST, not us. The Law calls us to look in the mirror - and see what WE are doing in reply to His call. The Gospel invites us to look at the Cross - and embrace all that is ours as a result.

See the opening post: http://christianityhaven.com/showthr...logy-thread)

See http://christianityhaven.com/showthr...LAW-and-GOSPEL



Thank you!

The only thing I have gotten by everyones attempt to seperate them is confusion and I know that is not what God intended so I have to believe that they are made to work together, not seperate

They WORK together but they are not the same and are not dependent upon each other. If God forgives you BECAUSE you fulfilled the law (well... A Law, in this case, repented) then TurtleHare is right - you've denounce the FREE GIFT, you've repudiated God's UNconditional love, God's MERCY, and any reason for Jesus. Rather, you've made the Law the reason for salvation (you repenting), not the UNconditional love of God, not the FREE GIFT, not mercy, not Christ, not the Cross, not the Blood, not Savior - but YOU, and what YOU do for God in obedience to the Law. Friend.... that's modern Judaism, Islam and Bhaki Hinduism, that's NOT CHRISTianity.

By definition, the FREE GIFT is not something you accomplish by jumping through X hoops. By definition, the FREE GIFT would not be free or a gift if it results from what YOU perform, what YOU do, what hoop YOU jumped through.

Read the opening post.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

They WORK together but they are not the same and are not dependent upon each other. If God forgives you BECAUSE you fulfilled the law (well... A Law, in this case, repented) then TurtleHare is right - you've denounce the FREE GIFT, you've repudiated God's UNconditional love, God's MERCY, and any reason for Jesus. Rather, you've made the Law the reason for salvation (you repenting), not the UNconditional love of God, not the FREE GIFT, not mercy, not Christ, not the Cross, not the Blood, not Savior - but YOU, and what YOU do for God in obedience to the Law. Friend.... that's modern Judaism, Islam and Bhaki Hinduism, that's NOT CHRISTianity.

By definition, the FREE GIFT is not something you accomplish by jumping through X hoops. By definition, the FREE GIFT would not be free or a gift if it results from what YOU perform, what YOU do, what hoop YOU jumped through.

Read the opening post.


Pax


- Josiah

OK now tell me how you explain Romans 10:9-10 in light of what you said. Why bother with a sinners prayer at all since we are saved automatically as it is a gift and we do not have to do anything to open it. Your theology is flawed

 

[Lamb]

OK now tell me how you explain Romans 10:9-10 in light of what you said. Why bother with a sinners prayer at all since we are saved automatically as it is a gift and we do not have to do anything to open it. Your theology is flawed

We declare with our mouth and confess the Savior we HAVE. We can't do those things without faith. We are saved by grace through faith and faith is a gift from God so that we may believe. We do the believing but believing isn't the cause of our salvation, it's believing salvation that the Lord gives us through the Savior. A confession of faith comes after receiving faith. You can't confess something you don't already believe. So confessing isn't the cause of our salvation but merely the proclamation of what is already true.

The sinners prayer doesn't save. The Savior saves.

 

[psalms 91]

true but without that invitation we are not saved unless of course you subscribe to everyone is saved since we do ablsolutely nothing to recieve it. You cant dismiss that passage of scripture so easily

 

[Lamb]

true but without that invitation we are not saved unless of course you subscribe to everyone is saved since we do ablsolutely nothing to recieve it. You cant dismiss that passage of scripture so easily

Isn't that the concept of "free gift"? To not have to do something to receive it?

No, not everyone is saved because there are people who reject the Savior and forgiveness won at the cross.

 

[Josiah]

true but without that invitation we are not saved unless of course you subscribe to everyone is saved since we do ablsolutely nothing to recieve it. You cant dismiss that passage of scripture so easily

Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide..... Soli Deo Gloria! We don't earn the Gospel, we RECEIVE the Gospel as "the FREE GIFT of God." That's why we celebrate Jesus as THE (the one, exclusive, sole, only, singular) Savior (not helper, not enabler, not possibility-maker). THE Savior! Grace, Christ, faith ALONE (without the need for us to jump though any hoops to make it so, so that SELF is the Savior, SELF is the cause, SELF makes it all happen - no need for all that mercy and forgiveness business Chrsitians so obsess about, no need for the Cross Christianity places so central, no need for that Jesus they talk about - just self jumping sufficiently through all them hoops; self wonderfully jumps through X hoops and THAT'S why I am rewarded). See the opening post.


Yes..... LAW brings repentance (if we don't ignore it, if we don't destroy it, if we don't dilute it to nothingness - THAT'S what it does, brings us to our knees in dispare, in utter awareness of how we are a complete failure, crying" "have MERCY on me!". That's the work of the Law. Let it work - by NOT crying "but I've ceased to sin, I'm obedient, I'm so much better than the idiot at work, I'm so much better than the bozo next door - I do what I need to get right and get to heaven!". But the Law cannot save (unless you have no sin and thus have nothing to be saved from!!!! Read the opening post).

ONLY the Gospel can bring us salvation (IF we don't ignore it, if we don't destroy it, if we don't dilute it to nonethingness). It's what it does - by directing us to the Cross/Tomb, the MERCY of God, the UNconditional love of God, the Cross, the Blood, the Lamb, the Christ, the SAVIOR!

Mix the two, confuse and entangle the two - and you end up destroying them and Christianity. And often promoting (unawares) the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and/or Bhakti Hinduism. See the opening post.



A free gift is neither free or a gift if you earned it by what you do. Jesus is not the Savior if your hoop jumping is why you are heavenbound.



Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide..... Soli Deo Gloria! We don't earn the Gospel, we RECEIVE the Gospel as "the FREE GIFT of God." That's why we celebrate Jesus as THE (the one, exclusive, sole, only, singular) Savior (not helper, not enabler, not possibility-maker). THE Savior! Grace, Christ, faith ALONE (without the need for us to jump though any hoops to make it so, so that SELF is the Savior, SELF is the cause, SELF makes it all happen - no need for all that mercy and forgiveness business Chrsitians so obsess about, no need for the Cross Christianity places so central, no need for that Jesus they talk about - just self jumping sufficiently through all them hoops; self wonderfully jumps through X hoops and THAT'S why I am rewarded). See the opening post.


Yes..... LAW brings repentance (if we don't ignore it, if we don't destroy it, if we don't dilute it to nothingness - THAT'S what it does, brings us to our knees in dispare, in utter awareness of how we are a complete failure, crying" "have MERCY on me!". That's the work of the Law. Let it work - by NOT crying "but I've ceased to sin, I'm obedient, I'm so much better than the idiot at work, I'm so much better than the bozo next door - I do what I need to get right and get to heaven!". But the Law cannot save (unless you have no sin and thus have nothing to be saved from!!!! Read the opening post).

ONLY the Gospel can bring us salvation (IF we don't ignore it, if we don't destroy it, if we don't dilute it to nonethingness). It's what it does - by directing us to the Cross/Tomb, the MERCY of God, the UNconditional love of God, the Cross, the Blood, the Lamb, the Christ, the SAVIOR!

Mix the two, confuse and entangle the two - and you end up destroying them and Christianity. And often promoting (unawares) the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and/or Bhakti Hinduism. See the opening post.



A free gift is neither free or a gift if you earned it by what you do. Jesus is not the Savior if your hoop jumping is why you are heavenbound.



Thank you.


- Josiah

The two go hand in hand I agree God saves not us but we also have a part to play in our salvation. The problem is that salvation is ongoing, not one and done. That is why it says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That passage means nothing if we have no part. They should not be seperated, that causes confusion and God is not a God of confusion

 

[Lamb]

The two go hand in hand I agree God saves not us but we also have a part to play in our salvation. The problem is that salvation is ongoing, not one and done. That is why it says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That passage means nothing if we have no part. They should not be seperated, that causes confusion and God is not a God of confusion

It says work out. Not work for.

We work out what we have in that we are God's children and we live by faith.

 

[psalms 91]

It says work out. Not work for.

We work out what we have in that we are God's children and we live by faith.

And that is also true as far as it goes but leaves out our free will, our life experience, our desire to read and grow and so mjuch more that goes into shaping and growing our faith

 

[Lamb]

Living out our faith doesn't give us salvation since we already have it.

 

[psalms 91]

Then we do not have to do anything we will just all go to heaven since it is not a choice but something we are born with

 

[Lamb]

Then we do not have to do anything we will just all go to heaven since it is not a choice but something we are born with

We aren't all born with faith. I think I know what verse you're thinking of that state about God giving all a small portion of faith but isn't that speaking to believers??

We are born children of wrath with the exception of those who, while in the womb heard God's Word and were given faith. It's by His Word that faith comes to us.

Not everyone is saved because there are those who reject faith, the Savior, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[psalms 91]

I think that is speaking of all, we either grow that faith or we kill it. I believe that everyone is given a measure of faith, some find God, some make other gods, some just lose faith epriod

 

[TurtleHare]

What does Romans 10:9-10 say? Does it not say that we must confess withm our mouth and believe in our hearts? This is not something new or even something made up

Romans 10:9-10 points us to the Savior doesn't it? So who are you confessing and what are you believing in that saves you and it's not because you're confessing or believing but that it's all about Jesus. Isn't it always about Jesus? :harp-angel:

 

[psalms 91]

Romans 10:9-10 points us to the Savior doesn't it? So who are you confessing and what are you believing in that saves you and it's not because you're confessing or believing but that it's all about Jesus. Isn't it always about Jesus? :harp-angel:

Yup it is and without that step of belief you will not be saved

 

[TurtleHare]

Yup it is and without that step of belief you will not be saved

Oh please don't tell me you're turning believing into a work and taking away God's glory of working to save us? :nonono:

 

[psalms 91]

Oh please don't tell me you're turning believing into a work and taking away God's glory of working to save us? :nonono:

it is by faith, not work