Muhammad Ali (Yes, this is a Theology thread)

[Josiah]

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The towering figure of Muhammad Ali just past away. He was one of the most famous boxers in all world history, known perhaps as much for his bigger-than-life personality (and an ego to match) as his stunning boxing career (his constant chant: "I am the greatest!")

Back in his prime, there was a very popular "joke" told about him. According to this no-doubt mythical story, the GREAT Muhammad Ali boarded an airplane for a flight. The flight attendant told all to secure their seat belts.... and all did... except for The Greatest, Muhammad Ali ignored the command. Just before take off, the flight attendant came to the great boxer and politely reminded him to put on the seat belt. He replied, "Superman don't need no seat belt." To which the attendant said, "Superman don't need no airplane either." Supposedly, he put on the belt.

EGO makes us ignore the commands..... and think ourselves ever-so-special. Those who reject Law and Gospel do so because of their ego, their making themselves ever-so-big.... Supermen - who do all they need to do and who don't need no Christ, no Savior, no Cross.

I once had a good internet friend, a Brahman living in India, a man with a Ph.D. in engineering, and a Bhatki Hindu. For months, we exchanged nearly daily emails, comparing my Christianity with his Bhatki form of Hinduism. For Kapil, there was a fundamental insistence that we fall short, we are fallen, we miss the mark (and he was okay calling that "sin" since that's exactly what the word means and affirms). He had a MUCH, MUCH "softer" "lighter" concept of this (we slip up, often unwillingly - he insisted) but we both agreed all fall short (just HOW much - that we disagreed with). Because of his much smaller view of the Law, the "falling short, missing the mark" he saw no need for all this GOSPEL stuff Christians are always talking about.... this whole idea of a SAVIOR. He found it a bit offensive, actually. He explained to me that in his religion, the divine doesn't SAVE us (we don't NEED saving) but rather makes it possible for us to clean up our act. What we need is not mercy or forgiveness or a Savior.... what we need is sufficient TIME (this likely means many life times!) and sufficient divine HELP, empowering, strength which we are called to adequately "tap" (actually IF we adequately tapped it, we could solve our problem in one lifetime - but no one does). The "gospel" (if you can call it that) in Bhatki Hinduism is simply that the divine is the TIME and HELP given to us. There is no forgiveness (karma just rolls over).... there is no mercy..... there is no Savior.... because these are not needed. People are not as "fallen" as Christians insist - they are fundamentally good and able - we just need TIME and HELP (which is provided - the Gospel in that religion). He found the whole idea of all this mercy, forgiveness, the Savior.... offensive. "Superman don't need no _____________." If Christians would just greatly reduce the Law, he explained, Christians could easily be Bhatki Hindus (who respect Jesus as a teacher and model but are offended by the idea of Jesus as SAVIOR). Seemed to me, Kapil had a rose-colored mirror, and whenever he looked in it, he asked "who's the fairest of them all?" And a voice (that sounded exactly like himself) said, "You - who are getting fairer and fairer each day, some day to be divine."

I found all this fasinating since actually, I'd heard a LOT (a whole lot) of Christians essentially agreeing with Kapil. By own Catholic teachers who said that "God HELPS those who help themselves..... Jesus opens the gates to heaven but you gotta get yourselves through those gates with God's help....... grace is like the 'gas' God puts in your 'tank' so that you can get yourself where you need to get." Or some modern American "Evangelicals" talking about how little they sin, how they've ceased to sin, how obedient and righteous and fair they are and that salvation is all about "tapping" the power of the Holy Spirit so that we'll get into heaven. I think some Christians - unwittingly - are actually promoting the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism. Some Christians will speak long and never mention the Cross, the Blood, mercy, forgiveness - for a reason.

Christianity teaches LAW - a very, very, very high "bar" that we do NOT met. It shouts to us "you ain't no Superman, you are a SINNER!" You desperately, always, absolutely NEED mercy, forgiveness, saving! You've fallen and you can't get up. No matter how much extra time you get via Purgatory or Reincarnation. This may offend our EGO (as Kapil kept expressing) ..... we may want to reduce, water-down, dilute the Law to make it nearly nothing (as Kapil kept doing).... but Christianity proclaims it is true. No one is righteous, no, not even one. If anyone claims to be sinless, he is a liar and he deceives only himself. Bhakti Hinduism is wrong..... it won't work. Like Muhammad Ali in the story, the egotistical need their ego popped.

Christianity teaches GOSPEL - a very, very, very high view of God and His unconditional love, His boundless mercy, His forgiveness.... that God gives ("free gift") to us The Savior (NOT the Possibility-Maker, the Helper, the Gas). And directs us not to the mirror but to the Cross. The egotistical will be offended by the mere suggestion that I NEED this..... and that God GAVE this.

LAW - we NEED mercy, forgiveness, saving.
GOSPEL - Jesus IS the Savior in whom we have mercy, forgiveness, salvation.


Now yes, of course, BOTH are TOTALLY true ALWAYS. So, even with the Gospel, we are still to "strive" for perfection.... the Great Commandment was issued to CHRISTIANS who have received the Gospel. The Christian life is to be marked by love, forgiveness, humility, service. But we abuse, twist, confuse Law and Gospel when we look to the Law (and that rose-colored mirror) instead of the Cross.


Soli Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

Have you heard of ladder theology? It's where some Christians believe they're climbing the ladder to heaven with their works, good deeds, etc. They end up believing they're doing so great in getting to heaven and like your examples, they ignore the Savior who won their salvation already. If we were required to do something for heaven then it wouldn't be a "gift" and scripture tells us it's a gift.

 

[psalms 91]

Salvation is a gifty the rest is what the bible tells us to do and we either obey or we dont but of course if you dont then you risk losing heaven.

 

[Josiah]

Salvation is a gifty the rest is what the bible tells us to do and we either obey or we dont but of course if you dont then you risk losing heaven.

Bill, I disagree with your LAST point (we've had this discussion before, lol).


The Gospel is ALWAYS Gospel.... God is ALWAYS faithful..... God ALWAYS keeps His promises. God PROMISES that where there is repentance and faith, He WILL forgiven. Jesus mandates that even we fallen, sinful, mortal bloats are to forgive "77 times 7" (the point being ALWAYS, ENDLESSLY - whenever there is faith and repentance) - I don't think God does less than He mandates that we do. Jesus IS the Savior - and our needing Him doesn't mean He ceases to be such; His being our Savior IS not absolutely predicated on our not needing the Savior, not needing mercy, not needing forgiveness. The LAW is always LAW - demanding perfection, holiness, love. ALWAYS hitting the mark and thus NEVER missing the mark (the meaning of the word "sin"), 24/7, perfectly. Your noting that is good (and laudable! Many Christians so dilute the law as to be meaningless, perhaps nothing less than "sorta TRY when you can."), but the Gospel is not eliminated or destroyed by the Law - the Gospel is always 100% true and "in force" too!


BUT..... as I stated before..... while we are MANDATED to limit forgiveness to where there is repentance and faith (think 0f Jesus on the Cross praying that God FORGIVE those crucifying Him - even though it seems those executioners had no faith or repentance - just ONE example), but God is not mandated to, the Gospel does NOT promise that forgiveness comes where there is no repentance or faith (it MIGHT but there's no promise it WILL). If you will read this, let me use a senerio that was given by Bonhoeffer (a Lutheran bishop in Nazi Germany)..... A Christian (one with faith) sins. He repents. Does God forgiven Him? YES - God cannot do otherwise, God cannot be unfaithful, God cannot contradict His promise, even God cannot cancel the Gospel or ignore the Cross, the Blood. Now, that Christian commits the sin agiain. And repents again. Does God forgive Him? YES, of course, unquestionably - to argue otherwise is to insist God is unfaithful, acts contrary to His promise, ignors the Gospel and His own Son, destroying Christianity! Now, that Christian commits the same sin again. Repents again. This happens over and over and over and over and over and over - rather constantly. EVERY TIME that there is repentance and faith, does God forgive? YES!!!!! God cannot be unfaithful. BUT..... Bonhoeffer points out..... this can become a 'game' (what Bonhoeffer calls "cheap grace"), just a GAME that person plays with the heart of God, a taking advantage of it, a sort of reverse enabling. Bonhoeffer argues that EVENTUALLY, this destroys our faith (Lutherans don't believe in OSAS, Lutherans believe Christians CAN leave and desert the faith because WE can be unfaithful, contrary to our promises - it's just GOD cannot, cannot, cannot). We can destroy, wreck our own faith by this "game" we played.... and indeed, wreck our repentance too meaning we are NOT repentant at all, just playing a GAME with God's heart. THUS, we can play this game so long and hard that WE wreck and destroy our own faith and repentance..... GOD didn't destroy or cancel or ignore it because GOD cannot be unfaithful, God cannot act contrary to His promise, God cannot ignore the Cross or the Gospel. WE can. WE can wreck our faith and repentance.... and IF we do, then we don't come to God with repentance and faith and God is not bound by the Gospel, the Cross, His Promise to forgive us. He might because sometimes He does forgive without those things being present, but He might not. THIS is what some Scriptures are warning of (those Scriptures being LAW.... just as Scripture warns we CAN fall from faith, from grace, wrecking our faith). But Bill - there's the critical point were I disagree with you: God is not being unfaithful - WE ARE. God is not forgetting His promise to ALWAYS, FOREVER forgive where there is faith and repentance - WE HAVE abandoned our faith and wrecked our repentance so that they are no longer present. In the senario Bonhoeffer relates, WE have been unfaithful, not God. WE have forgotten Law and Gospel, NOT GOD.


Please consider that, Bill.....



Back to the issue of this tread.....



Pax Soli Christi



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

We will have to disagree seeing as how Jesus has commanded certain things of believers

 

[Josiah]

The Gospel is ALWAYS Gospel.... God is ALWAYS faithful..... God ALWAYS keeps His promises. God PROMISES that where there is repentance and faith, He WILL forgiven. Jesus mandates that even we fallen, sinful, mortal bloats are to forgive "77 times 7" (the point being ALWAYS, ENDLESSLY - whenever there is faith and repentance) - I don't think God does less than He mandates that we do. Jesus IS the Savior - and our needing Him doesn't mean He ceases to be such; His being our Savior IS not absolutely predicated on our not needing the Savior, not needing mercy, not needing forgiveness. The LAW is always LAW - demanding perfection, holiness, love. ALWAYS hitting the mark and thus NEVER missing the mark (the meaning of the word "sin"), 24/7, perfectly. Your noting that is good (and laudable! Many Christians so dilute the law as to be meaningless, perhaps nothing less than "sorta TRY when you can."), but the Gospel is not eliminated or destroyed by the Law - the Gospel is always 100% true and "in force" too!


BUT..... as I stated before..... while we are MANDATED to limit forgiveness to where there is repentance and faith (think 0f Jesus on the Cross praying that God FORGIVE those crucifying Him - even though it seems those executioners had no faith or repentance - just ONE example), but God is not mandated to, the Gospel does NOT promise that forgiveness comes where there is no repentance or faith (it MIGHT but there's no promise it WILL). If you will read this, let me use a senerio that was given by Bonhoeffer (a Lutheran bishop in Nazi Germany)..... A Christian (one with faith) sins. He repents. Does God forgiven Him? YES - God cannot do otherwise, God cannot be unfaithful, God cannot contradict His promise, even God cannot cancel the Gospel or ignore the Cross, the Blood. Now, that Christian commits the sin agiain. And repents again. Does God forgive Him? YES, of course, unquestionably - to argue otherwise is to insist God is unfaithful, acts contrary to His promise, ignors the Gospel and His own Son, destroying Christianity! Now, that Christian commits the same sin again. Repents again. This happens over and over and over and over and over and over - rather constantly. EVERY TIME that there is repentance and faith, does God forgive? YES!!!!! God cannot be unfaithful. BUT..... Bonhoeffer points out..... this can become a 'game' (what Bonhoeffer calls "cheap grace"), just a GAME that person plays with the heart of God, a taking advantage of it, a sort of reverse enabling. Bonhoeffer argues that EVENTUALLY, this destroys our faith (Lutherans don't believe in OSAS, Lutherans believe Christians CAN leave and desert the faith because WE can be unfaithful, contrary to our promises - it's just GOD cannot, cannot, cannot). We can destroy, wreck our own faith by this "game" we played.... and indeed, wreck our repentance too meaning we are NOT repentant at all, just playing a GAME with God's heart. THUS, we can play this game so long and hard that WE wreck and destroy our own faith and repentance..... GOD didn't destroy or cancel or ignore it because GOD cannot be unfaithful, God cannot act contrary to His promise, God cannot ignore the Cross or the Gospel. WE can. WE can wreck our faith and repentance.... and IF we do, then we don't come to God with repentance and faith and God is not bound by the Gospel, the Cross, His Promise to forgive us. He might because sometimes He does forgive without those things being present, but He might not. THIS is what some Scriptures are warning of (those Scriptures being LAW.... just as Scripture warns we CAN fall from faith, from grace, wrecking our faith). But Bill - there's the critical point were I disagree with you: God is not being unfaithful - WE ARE. God is not forgetting His promise to ALWAYS, FOREVER forgive where there is faith and repentance - WE HAVE abandoned our faith and wrecked our repentance so that they are no longer present. In the senario Bonhoeffer relates, WE have been unfaithful, not God. WE have forgotten Law and Gospel, NOT GOD.


Please consider that, Bill.....



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We will have to disagree seeing as how Jesus has commanded certain things of believers

Yes, the LAW is not destroyed by the Gospel. But then the Gospel is never destroyed the the Law EITHER!

I simply cannot agree with you that God is unfaithful, that God renigs on His promise to forgive where there is repentance and faith, that God does LESS than Jesus commands of we mortal, sinful bloats.





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[Lamb]

Salvation is a gifty the rest is what the bible tells us to do and we either obey or we dont but of course if you dont then you risk losing heaven.

We obey the Gospel when we believe in the Savior and His forgiveness.

Obeying the Law doesn't earn us heaven. Disobeying the Law isn't an automatic out either but CAN lead us to begin rejecting the Savior and His forgiveness.

All of us are saved in the same way, by grace through faith. We don't contribute to that.

Damnation is completely man's fault when he rejects the triune God and salvation.

 

[psalms 91]

OK and what about Law the Law that Jesus laid out, do you think disobedience will be rewarded

 

[Lamb]

OK and what about Law the Law that Jesus laid out, do you think disobedience will be rewarded

Do you believe God to be merciful?

 

[psalms 91]

with repentance yes, without it no then comes judgement. God is fair and will judge accordingl but unrepentant disobedience He will not be merciful

 

[Lamb]

with repentance yes, without it no then comes judgement. God is fair and will judge accordingl but unrepentant disobedience He will not be merciful

Repentance isn't a condition of salvation since forgiveness was first won at the cross. God uses Law to convict us of sin and the Gospel to give us faith and repentance is Him turning us to Him and away from sin. It doesn't win us salvation though. It's work of His within us. Those that refuse to turn away, are refusing faith and the Lord. They end up damning themselves if they die without the Savior and His forgiveness.

 

[psalms 91]

Lets talk those who accept Christ but continue to sin long aftyer they know better. How about those that say sin is OK and many chruchs do now, do you really think God is going to allow that king of disobedience and rebellion in heaven especially after Lucifer rebelled?

 

[Lamb]

Lets talk those who accept Christ but continue to sin long aftyer they know better. How about those that say sin is OK and many chruchs do now, do you really think God is going to allow that king of disobedience and rebellion in heaven especially after Lucifer rebelled?

God forgives us even when we were sinners. Isn't that how the scripture goes?

Continuing in a sin could lead to the person's damnation because it could lead to a rejection of the Savior and forgiveness. How many times does God forgive a sin? How many times did Jesus say to forgive?

We know that God works within us (we were never meant to be alone). He promises to be with us all the days in Matthew 28:20. So it's not a matter of God turning away, but man.

 

[psalms 91]

God forgives us even when we were sinners. Isn't that how the scripture goes?

Continuing in a sin could lead to the person's damnation because it could lead to a rejection of the Savior and forgiveness. How many times does God forgive a sin? How many times did Jesus say to forgive?

We know that God works within us (we were never meant to be alone). He promises to be with us all the days in Matthew 28:20. So it's not a matter of God turning away, but man.

Yes He forgives sin but only if we ask and repent even salvation requires that it says to believe in our heat and confess with our mouth

 

[Lamb]

Yes He forgives sin but only if we ask and repent even salvation requires that it says to believe in our heat and confess with our mouth

Your sins were first forgiven at the cross. God works in you to show you your sin. Then he gives you faith to believe the good news that your sins are forgiven. It happened at the cross first for you. Then he gives it to you by grace through faith.

 

[psalms 91]

true a gift, but a gift that we must open by our faith and confession, after that then we enter into what Christ commands and He says that those who love me obey me

 

[Josiah]

true a gift, but a gift that we must open by our faith and confession, after that then we enter into what Christ commands and He says that those who love me obey me

Okay....... but it's important to not make the Gospel subject to the Law - so that the Law is dominate, the Law can cancel the Gospel, which just means that ultimately, we look to the Law for salvation (and thus leave Christianity and embrace the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism). It's not, "I unconditionally love you IF....." "I have mercy on you IF......" "Jesus is the Savior IF......." Law and Gospel are BOTH true.... fully, absolutely, completely, always..... Entangling, confusing, diluting, combining, subjecting Law and Gospel simply creates the situation to which the OP speaks. YES, of course, the Gospel does not cancel out the Law (so yes, God DEMANDS big, very big, huge, enormous things!)..... but the Law doesn't cancel out the Gospel, either! (so yes, God always loves unconditionally, God is merciful, Jesus remains the SAVIOR, God forgives SIN where there is faith and repentance).



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

How many times does God forgive a sin? How many times did Jesus say to forgive?

We limited, fallen, mortal bloats are COMMANDED to forgive 77 times 7. Jesus' point is not to count to 539.... keep a record book and if someone commits that sin 540 times, shoot them dead and condemn them to hell. No, Jesus' point is that we are to ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS forgive where there is repentance and faith. Can God do less than He demands of we fallen, limited bloats? No.


Thank you.


Pax soli Christi



- Josiah

 

[TurtleHare]

true a gift, but a gift that we must open by our faith and confession, after that then we enter into what Christ commands and He says that those who love me obey me

I have never heard the bible speak of "must open by our faith" so how does that work since faith tells us about Jesus and God is the one who lets us know about Him? Whenever someone says it's a gift but then you have to do such and such, beware of that scam, I mean you'd beware if a friend told you about some great gift you could receive in the mail, but first you gotta do this and this and this, does that still seem like a gift to you? If you received a call on the phone from someone telling you you won something but then you have to send them a check first, does that seem like a free gift?

How about I offer you a hundred dollars for free but then I set you up with some difficult task you can't accomplish (and only Jesus could do it perfectly) in order to obtain that hundred bucks, does it still seem like good news to you or does that cause fear and dread you might not make it?

 

[Josiah]

Whenever someone says it's a gift but then you have to do such and such, beware of that scam, I mean you'd beware if a friend told you about some great gift you could receive in the mail, but first you gotta do this and this and this, does that still seem like a gift to you? If you received a call on the phone from someone telling you you won something but then you have to send them a check first, does that seem like a free gift?

How about I offer you a hundred dollars for free but then I set you up with some difficult task you can't accomplish (and only Jesus could do it perfectly) in order to obtain that hundred bucks, does it still seem like good news to you or does that cause fear and dread you might not make it?

I nominate this for the best post of the year award.




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