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Christians Persecuting Christians

Josiah

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In the USA, we are familiar with the anti-Catholic, anti-LDS and anti-any African American churches..... The LDS has perhaps the most stunning examples of this, perhaps the most persecuted church in American history. But it often has involved churches you might not expect.

Lutheranism has roots primary in Germany and Scandinavia. People from those lands immigrated into the USA in large numbers, making Lutheranism one of the top 3 or 4 faith communities in the USA. Many of their congregations faced persecution rather than religious freedom; the German Lutheran groups (LCMS and WELS) faced the worse - especially since the USA went to war with Germany twice in the 20th Century. But sometimes the persecution had nothing to do with German roots but with some Americans feeling that Lutherans were just Catholics - and thus targets of anti-Catholicism (they must have missed that history lesson about the Reformation).

While all know about the KKK's attack on Catholics, few know they were equally focused on Lutherans. It was the worse in Texas where they managed to completely close (some by burning) many of the Lutheran churches and thousands of Lutherans were forced to move to states where the KKK was not active.

While persecution was obvious long before it, it rose to a new level during WW 1 (even before the USA entered the war). Lutheran churches were burned and crowds at times blocked the churches forcing the Lutherans to not worship in their own church. There are numerous stories of Baptists, Methodists and others leaving their churches and marching over to the Lutheran churches - sometimes with guns drawn - interrupting the serving and ordering the Lutherans to leave. Threats were common to Lutheran pastors. In an attempt to appease this, German Lutheran churches began displaying the flag of the USA in the church (a common practice to this day), renamed the denominations (to shorter ENGLISH names), even quickly translated the hymnal into English and worshipping in English. It didn't help. In rural areas where Germans were the majority, this persecution did not occur but these areas were few (mostly in the Dakotas and in Minnesota).

During WW 2, things were better, with few cases of outright violence, but there was still loud, vocal rebuffs and claims that Lutherans were loyal to Hitler and fundamentally un-American.



Some are 't aware, but even the NAMES of some Protestant groups are the result of persecution and hatred from fellow Christians....

"Lutheran" They called themselves "Evangelicals" (even "Evangelical Catholic") but the Catholics condemned them as people who did not trust or follow Christ but rather Luther - they weren't Christians but Lutherans. The term just stuck.... soon even these Christians began permitting (and even using) the term (they choosing not to be offended by what was clearly meant to be an attack, a term of derision).

"Baptist" (originally Anabaptist or RE-Baptist). While these Christians had a wide range, a number of distinctive teachings, the one that captured the attention of Catholics was that they rejected the infant baptism they received (probably in a Catholic Church) and thus RE baptized! Of course, these Christians rejected that insisting they were not RE baptizing anyone but were baptizing them legit for the first time, they were quite offended by the obvious term of derision. But again, they soon chose not to be offended by it - and soon embraced it themselves.

"Methodist" These Christians were rebuked by the Anglicans because they seemed to have a method for saving people, one that seem to discount the Holy Spirit, the Means of Grace. Method for this, method for that. These Christians insisted that they were NOT discounting the work or the Spirit or the Means and that the term of dersion was based on a gross misunderstanding of them. But the term stuck. They chose to not be offended by it and soon embraced it themselves.

There are many more..... Even the term "Protestant" has this history. Originally, the term only applied to a handful of German princes who "protested" an edict which forbid non-RCC'ers from publicly worshipping. But Catholics soon applied it to ANYONE (except Greek Orthodox) who were not docilicly submissive to the unmitigated power and authority of The Catholic Church but were "protesting" the authority of Christ on Earth..... they used it for any non-Catholic as a term of derision, one who protest the authority of Christ. Those who accepted sola gratia - solus Christus - sola fide soon chose to not be offended by this term of hatred and soon began using it themselves.

Persecution is not limited to the FEW Christians that usually get all the attention: the LDS, the RCC and any African American church. Those have some stunning examples (although the RCC has sure dished it out, too), but sadly, Christians have had MANY targets.





Pax Christi



- Josiah
 

Lamb

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Are you saying each time there is a protest there is a name change? ;)
 

psalms 91

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Are you also saying that when you disagree with their teaching that is persecution?
 

MoreCoffee

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Are you also saying that when you disagree with their teaching that is persecution?

I very likely disagree with many things taught in your religion. I rarely go to much trouble to search them out. The few matters I do post about are either raised by others or are current topics of interest because of televangelists and others advocating them.
 

popsthebuilder

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Christians do persecute and attack other Christians. I've noticed if you put three Christians together with one atheist in conversation that more often than not the Christiana will pick apart one another's view without the atheist interacting at all. This is detrimental towards the credit of those Christians as to the atheist the can't even agree long enough to converse with the atheist.

We must rightly divide the Word of GOD. That doesn't mean to belittle, or downplay another's view, belief, Faith, or hope, but to aid one another and all in any way we can. Bickering and squabbling over seemingly minor details, especially in the presence of someone genuinely curious about GOD is counter productive, and not profitable for any.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

psalms 91

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I very likely disagree with many things taught in your religion. I rarely go to much trouble to search them out. The few matters I do post about are either raised by others or are current topics of interest because of televangelists and others advocating them.
Funny I thought my religion was yours as well. Are we not both Christian?
 

MoreCoffee

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Funny I thought my religion was yours as well. Are we not both Christian?

I do not think that your religion can be anything like the Catholic Faith since the things you've written are so vehemently opposed to the Catholic Church.

I make no negative comments about another person's status before God.
 

psalms 91

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That part is true, however in the end are we not both christian
 

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Christians do persecute and attack other Christians. I've noticed if you put three Christians together with one atheist in conversation that more often than not the Christiana will pick apart one another's view without the atheist interacting at all. This is detrimental towards the credit of those Christians as to the atheist the can't even agree long enough to converse with the atheist.

We must rightly divide the Word of GOD. That doesn't mean to belittle, or downplay another's view, belief, Faith, or hope, but to aid one another and all in any way we can. Bickering and squabbling over seemingly minor details, especially in the presence of someone genuinely curious about GOD is counter productive, and not profitable for any.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Yes if you bite and eat each other watch out you don't get swallowed. That's NBG translation translated to Dunglish. I'm from Paul. I'm from Apollos.
We have a program here on tv where well known (well in Holland) people look for God. One guy who got saved because of that said when he went to christians to ask things:
Why can't they just come up with the same story? Isn't that handier? Now one says this and the other says that.
The world will know that He sent us if there's unity, so the devil loves it when christians attack each other.
 

Josiah

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Persecution HAS happened (Christians have LITERALLY killed each other in wars over denominations).... and I think there ARE some "horror stories" that Mormons can relate, and indeed probably those in ALL Christian traditions can.

And there are some who seem to have a "persecution complex" - quite often whining "how come everybody's always pic'n on we pur ______________?" And when someone DISAGREES with something in their denomination, the knee jerk "You ANTI!" "You always hate we pur _________" Those with this complex seem unable (unwilling?) to separate "hate" from disagreement (or even just observations and questions).


My degree is not in psychology and so I'll let Dr. Phil WHY some Christians do this - especially when presented with something definitive or distinctive in their denomination. Years ago, I spent nearly a year exploring what are usually call "cults" in the USA (this grew out of my interest in the LDS) and one of two common denominators in them all is this persecution complex, it seems to have a way of uniting and of dismissing any questions (and certainly criticisms). The other was a huge, massive emphasis on AUTHORITY with the cult insisting that it itself exclusively IS (functionally) The Authority (even to the point of insisting that it IS God on Earth, that when IT exclusively speaks ergo God is). Anyway, that "persecution complex" is something we see among Christians...... and YES, there often IS at least some HISTORICAL bases for this sense of persecution (it may have been DECADES ago in a country FAR, FAR away..... but real).


I'll share later my thoughts about Christians ATTACKING Christians (work calls)....



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah
 

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Christians do persecute and attack other Christians. I've noticed if you put three Christians together with one atheist in conversation that more often than not the Christiana will pick apart one another's view without the atheist interacting at all. This is detrimental towards the credit of those Christians as to the atheist the can't even agree long enough to converse with the atheist.

We must rightly divide the Word of GOD. That doesn't mean to belittle, or downplay another's view, belief, Faith, or hope, but to aid one another and all in any way we can. Bickering and squabbling over seemingly minor details, especially in the presence of someone genuinely curious about GOD is counter productive, and not profitable for any.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

How do you feel about correction concerning doctrine without doing it in a belittling way?
 

popsthebuilder

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How do you feel about correction concerning doctrine without doing it in a belittling way?
It may be the place of some to rightly divide. However; we know based on scripture that if we are in error ourselves then the potential for us to steer others in the correct direction could be compromised. I do this myself and have caught it. More recently, especially in person with witnesses; if something someone says regarding doctrine strikes me against the grain, then I will, in proper time, with patience, ask them about it as humbly as possible.

We are to help one another.

I know of very few, including myself, who can take criticism about their inner most beliefs lightly. I know less who can honestly contemplate such a challenge if it is brought to their attention in any negative fashion whatsoever. Aiming to bring shame to a brother(sister) in Christ primarily as opposed to seeking to help one another gently is just not productive or beneficial to any.

If one makes a show of rebuking another then we all know they are doing things for the wrong reasons. Works... Are NOT for the sight of man.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

MoreCoffee

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It seems that presenting the facts ought to be the best way to teach. But if the facts do not support your doctrine then a bit of brow beating may help. If that will not suffice then one can try threats. That may fail so after that one is left only with attacks against persons and the church. I see a lot of attacks against the church and some against persons. That for me is a sure sign that the facts are not on the side of the attackers.
 
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Josiah

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It seems that presenting the facts ought to be the best way to teach. But if the facts do not support your doctrine then a bit of brow beating may help. If that will not suffice then one can try threats. That may fail so after that one is left only with attacks against persons and the church. I see a lot of attacks against the church and some against persons. That for me is a sure sign that the facts are not on the side of the attackers.


A major factor is the egotistical insistence that the view of SELF* ergo equals fact and truth. Self then designates self to loudly parrot such - ridiculing any too stupid to not docilicly submit to whatever himself/herself/itself says is "truth" and "fact"; those so stupid as to not submit to the "fact" and "trust" that SELF proclaims cuz SELF does (in the opinion of SELF * ) justifies the treatment they dish out to others for their stupidity in not docilicly swallowing all SELF* says as "fact" and "truth"


I LIKE when people post things that either I don't believe or that are "new" to me. It's how I tend to learn and grow. If I only wanted "yes" men (and women), I'd find some closed, uber-regulated forum for just conservative Lutherans (they DO exist.... I AVOID them). IF all you do is look in the mirror and listen to yourself, you can't learn, can't be corrected, can't grow.... and probably can't determine truth. What frustrates things (and tends to terminate discussion) are those who insist that SELF is ergo "right" because they agree with themselves and/or because God spoke (privately, individually) JUST to SELF* and/or the Holy Spirit only guides and protects SELF*. Those who seem to just parrot stuff and clearly never gave it a seconds thought. Those who seem DRIVEN not by a quest for truth or for love - but to shout louder than others and prove their disinterest in listening, learning, growing, sharing, discussing.


IMO, there is a tension. On the one hand, Christians are not relativist (or at least they aren't SUPPOSE to be, lol) - there IS truth. And we are to speak the truth WITH LOVE (lots forget that part). On the other hand, God is Lord and not self. HUMILITY is the basis of all good theology (to quote Luther) and mixed with LOVE, is the basis of all Christian behavior (including posting). CHRIST is truth - not self, not the brain of self, not the opinion of self, not the denomination of self, not even the interpretations/visions by self (of Scripture or anything). Egoism.... individualism..... crowning of self as lord, God must agree with ME because I'm right.....("I" here can be the self that self sees in the mirror, or a denomination that looks at self in the mirror).... they are often the enemies of discussion. And at least one reason why we are LOCKED in disagreement, division, separation.


[* "Self" here can equally mean any individual person, denomination or cult]



Pax Christi



- Josiah



.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Daniel 13:48 Taking his stand in the midst of them, he said, "Are you such fools, you sons of Israel? Have you condemned a daughter of Israel without examination and without learning the facts?

The facts ought to speak first.
 

Josiah

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I chose to skip #14.

Psalms 31:18-20
Let the lying lips be dumb, which speak insolently against the righteous in pride and contempt. 19 O how abundant is thy goodness, which thou hast laid up for those who fear thee, and wrought for those who take refuge in thee, in the sight of the sons of men! 20 In the covert of thy presence thou hidest them from the plots of men; thou holdest them safe under thy shelter from the strife of tongues.
 

psalms 91

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No church or denomination is without error and our faith is personal and if we dont have a relationship with Christ then I question salvation, not relationship with church or their beliefs but our own relationship
 

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Persecution HAS happened (Christians have LITERALLY killed each other in wars over denominations).... and I think there ARE some "horror stories" that Mormons can relate, and indeed probably those in ALL Christian traditions can.

And there are some who seem to have a "persecution complex" - quite often whining "how come everybody's always pic'n on we pur ______________?" And when someone DISAGREES with something in their denomination, the knee jerk "You ANTI!" "You always hate we pur _________" Those with this complex seem unable (unwilling?) to separate "hate" from disagreement (or even just observations and questions).


My degree is not in psychology and so I'll let Dr. Phil WHY some Christians do this - especially when presented with something definitive or distinctive in their denomination. Years ago, I spent nearly a year exploring what are usually call "cults" in the USA (this grew out of my interest in the LDS) and one of two common denominators in them all is this persecution complex, it seems to have a way of uniting and of dismissing any questions (and certainly criticisms). The other was a huge, massive emphasis on AUTHORITY with the cult insisting that it itself exclusively IS (functionally) The Authority (even to the point of insisting that it IS God on Earth, that when IT exclusively speaks ergo God is). Anyway, that "persecution complex" is something we see among Christians...... and YES, there often IS at least some HISTORICAL bases for this sense of persecution (it may have been DECADES ago in a country FAR, FAR away..... but real).


I'll share later my thoughts about Christians ATTACKING Christians (work calls)....



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

Christians have LITERALLY killed each other in wars over denominations,,nope .. "MEN" have killed each others in wars over religion , denominations have killed in wars of religion

christians have had no part in it .. for any one who had a part in it ,thus displayed by their fruit that they were not a person in whom the holy Spirit dwelt .
 

Josiah

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Christians have LITERALLY killed each other in wars over denominations,,nope .. "MEN" have killed each others in wars over religion , denominations have killed in wars of religion

christians have had no part in it .. for any one who had a part in it ,thus displayed by their fruit that they were not a person in whom the holy Spirit dwelt .

I disagree with you that there was not one Christian in any army engaged in war.
 
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