Original Sin

[visionary]

If all of humanity have original sin in us, then did Yeshua, in taking on our flesh, also have original sin?

 

[psalms 91]

No He did not

 

[visionary]

Then the theology of "original sin" fell short. For Yeshua was tempted in all things as we are, and sinned not. If he didn't have original sin, then He didn't get to the core.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes He was and took on the form of man yet without sin

 

[visionary]

So you are saying there is no original sin in all of us?

 

[psalms 91]

nope I am saying it was not in Christ

 

[visionary]

If it was not in Christ, then how can it be rooted out in us, if He never dealt with it.

 

[psalms 91]

Dont know but what does the Word say about Christ, does it not say that there was no sin in Him? Let me ask you do you have to experience a problem to help someone or can you help beacause you know how to?

 

[visionary]

Dont know but what does the Word say about Christ, does it not say that there was no sin in Him? Let me ask you do you have to experience a problem to help someone or can you help beacause you know how to?

When you pull weeds, do you need to pull them out roots and all?

 

[psalms 91]

When you pull weeds, do you need to pull them out roots and all?

Of course But I will stand that there was no sin in Him according to the Word, or is that not what it says

 

[visionary]

Of course But I will stand that there was no sin in Him according to the Word, or is that not what it says

I guess I need to understand if you believe that there is original sin is in us today. If so, how was Yeshua exempt from having original sin in Him?

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, we have original sin as to how I dont know but I will say it goes back to His conception

 

[visionary]

I think before we go any further, I need to clear up the matter of where I stand on this question. I do not believe in original sin.

1 Cor 11:7 Man…is the image and glory of God.

James 3:9 Men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Here is the truth. The body in of itself is not sinful. It has no ability to sin. Its the freewill choice of the heart of the soul that rebels against God.

2 Timothy 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Would the Holy Spirit live in a sinful environment?

1Cor. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

The false doctrine of total depravity and inability to obey God is at the very core of the doctrine of original sin. According to those who argue in favor of original sin, all men, even those who are Christians, have a corrupt, sinful nature and are unable to obey God as long as they are in this life.

The most fundamental doctrines of the Bible are contradicted by the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine of mercy, grace, guilt, pardon, and repentance all have to be redefined, and this is what has happened. The insidious idea that “if men are born with a so-called sinful nature, then man himself is not guilty. And if man is not guilty, then Yeshua died in vain”.

If the sinner truly believes that he was born a sinner which then enhances the doctrine that he cannot live without sin, believing he is going to always sin and with that he will at the very least secretly excuse his sins. It’s no great wonder that the global homosexual movement says that they were born that way. Isn’t that what the church have been teaching them? Everybody is born in sin, they claim. So are not the gays just following suit by saying we were born this way? Once again this false doctrine gives the sinner an excuse for his sins. God never once excuses sin but rather warns of an awful judgement that awaits sinners continually from Geneses to Revelation. There is not one verse in the bible that says “sin-nature”, or child of sin, but rather the bible says man is evil from his youth.

 

[visionary]

Talking about children and sin....The Bible teaches that children cannot be sinners and guilty and condemned at birth, for they do not know the difference between good and evil, and have not yet come to the “age of accountability”: Moses expresses this in the book of Deuteronomy in chapter.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

There is an age of accountability. You see, I believe aborted babies, infants that died in childbirth, babies that died in their childhood are all going to be in heaven. As Yeshua, "forbid them not"..

 

[visionary]

Is Paul speaking to the heathens on Mars hill, teaching those who seek the Lord that they inherited the genetics of Adam? No way,,, God breathed the breath of life into every person “the offspring of God”

Acts 17-27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

It is non sense to say we are already tainted by original sin. We were formed fearfully and wonderfully in the womb by God in Psalms 139, and there is no sin in HIM. We were made to fear God and hate sin.

Seems strange that if this were true we should also be born in sin. Nay, may God forbid! Sin is an “act” of disobedience to Gods’ commands, not a genetic trait, it is an issue of a chosen moral action…Sin has no atomic weight, nor do the works of righteousness have an atomic weight, both are a choice of action. However, our bodies indeed were born corruptible and will suffer infirmities and die. But we are born innocent.

 

[Josiah]

If all of humanity have original sin in us, then did Yeshua, in taking on our flesh, also have original sin?

No. Scripture specifically states that He had no sin, so.... well..... IMO..... He had no sin.


There are two THEORIES (because Scripture does not say), two major THEORIES about why Jesus did not have original sin.

1) What I was taught as a Roman Catholic is that both of His parents had no sin - thus He could not have "inherited" it (I got the impression the RCC believes sin is in our DNA). Mary was born without sin and thus had no sin (yet she sinned, the RCC says..... go figure, never made any sense to me). Of course, the main problem with this THEORY is that it just bumps the question back a generation.... the question I had (even when I was like 9 years old!) is: if Jesus had to have two sinless parents to be sinless, then obviously Mary had to have two sinless parents to be sinless... and if you trace that back, it means NO ONE has sin (and the Bible lies - as does the morning newspaper).

2) Jesus is sinless by virtue of His divine nature. In the "Communication of Attributes," the Divinity of Jesus "communicates" with the humanity of Jesus - divine attributes being embraced by the human nature. This is why He could do miracles, how He knew stuff, why He could seem to walk through walls, why He could die for us and rise from the dead. His sinless divinity "communicated" that attribute to His humanity so that in both natures, he is sinless. I like this, but it is THEORY; as far as I know, no denomination teaches this as fact.



It is true that Jesus "took on" OUR sinfulness on the Cross.... but He did not take on our nature. He died for OUR sins - not His own. Obviously, there's MYSTERY here, too - how He "took on" something without in any sense BEING such.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

No. Scripture specifically states that He had no sin, so.... well..... IMO..... He had no sin.


There are two THEORIES (because Scripture does not say), two major THEORIES about why Jesus did not have original sin.

1) What I was taught as a Roman Catholic is that both of His parents had no sin - thus He could not have "inherited" it (I got the impression the RCC believes sin is in our DNA). Mary was born without sin and thus had no sin (yet she sinned, the RCC says..... go figure, never made any sense to me). Of course, the main problem with this THEORY is that it just bumps the question back a generation.... the question I had (even when I was like 9 years old!) is: if Jesus had to have two sinless parents to be sinless, then obviously Mary had to have two sinless parents to be sinless... and if you trace that back, it means NO ONE has sin (and the Bible lies - as does the morning newspaper).

2) Jesus is sinless by virtue of His divine nature. In the "Communication of Attributes," the Divinity of Jesus "communicates" with the humanity of Jesus - divine attributes being embraced by the human nature. This is why He could do miracles, how He knew stuff, why He could seem to walk through walls, why He could die for us and rise from the dead. His sinless divinity "communicated" that attribute to His humanity so that in both natures, he is sinless. I like this, but it is THEORY; as far as I know, no denomination teaches this as fact.



It is true that Jesus "took on" OUR sinfulness on the Cross.... but He did not take on our nature. He died for OUR sins - not His own. Obviously, there's MYSTERY here, too - how He "took on" something without in any sense BEING such.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

If they are going with Mary as sinless too in order for Yeshua's flesh to be without original sin, how do they explain her family tree which is full of sinners. How do they explain how sinless beings escaped from the garden of eden to propagate for all these centuries undetected?

 

[Josiah]

If they are going with Mary as sinless too in order for Yeshua's flesh to be without original sin, how do they explain her family tree which is full of sinners. How do they explain how sinless beings escaped from the garden of eden to propagate for all these centuries undetected?

You'd need to ask a Catholic who "buys" that theory....

I LEAN toward the second.... the communication of attributes one, as theory.

There are two THEORIES (because Scripture does not say), two major THEORIES about why Jesus did not have original sin.

1) What I was taught as a Roman Catholic is that both of His parents had no sin - thus He could not have "inherited" it (I got the impression the RCC
believes sin is in our DNA). Mary was born without sin and thus had no sin (yet she sinned, the RCC
says..... go figure, never made any sense to me). Of course, the main problem with this THEORY is that it just bumps the question back a generation.... the question I had (even when I was like 9 years old!) is: if Jesus had to have two sinless parents to be sinless, then obviously Mary had to have two sinless parents to be sinless... and if you trace that back, it means NO ONE has sin (and the Bible lies - as does the morning newspaper).

2) Jesus is sinless by virtue of His divine nature. In the "Communication of Attributes," the Divinity of Jesus "communicates" with the humanity of Jesus - divine attributes being embraced by the human nature. This is why He could do miracles, how He knew stuff, why He could seem to walk through walls, why He could die for us and rise from the dead. His sinless divinity "communicated" that attribute to His humanity so that in both natures, he is sinless. I like this, but it is THEORY; as far as I know, no denomination teaches this as fact.



It is true that Jesus "took on" OUR sinfulness on the Cross.... but He did not take on our nature. He died for OUR sins - not His own. Obviously, there's MYSTERY here, too - how He "took on" something without in any sense BEING such.

- Josiah