Speaking in tongues?

What do you believe about toungues

  • Operate in and believe in

    Votes: 3 16.7%
  • believe they are for today

    Votes: 2 11.1%
  • no, dont believe they are in operation today

    Votes: 9 50.0%
  • not sure

    Votes: 4 22.2%

  • Total voters
    18
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MoreCoffee

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What one hears in a typical charismatic meeting today and that folk in the meeting call tongues is gibberish. There are dozens of recorded examples on yourtube to show that it is gibberish. If any of it was genuine languages spoken under the guidance of the Holy Spirit then there'd be dozens of examples on youtube by now but there is not.
 

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What one hears in a typical charismatic meeting today and that folk in the meeting call tongues is gibberish. There are dozens of recorded examples on yourtube to show that it is gibberish. If any of it was genuine languages spoken under the guidance of the Holy Spirit then there'd be dozens of examples on youtube by now but there is not.

I've found in these discussions that those are always someone else's church.


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tango

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What experiences? The ones where people get healed or delivered? There is no scripture for that? As for unbelief did not Jesus himself say that because of unbelief He could do little. If it is that experience combined with the Word that backs it up, then yup I will take that every time.

People can be healed by occult power (I know this, I've personally done it). People can apparently be delivered by powers that are nothing to do with God.

The fact someone is healed doesn't in and of itself mean the person doing the healing is anything to do with God. Jesus warned of false prophets who would perform mighty signs and wonders (Matt 24:24), and warned that some people who said "Lord, Lord" would not enter his kingdom (Matt 7:21-23).

Depending on just what is being "healed" it's not always very difficult to fake a healing. A well-placed stooge can be a real boost to a dodgy preacher, and popular beliefs are sufficiently inaccurate that they can be exploited to give the illusion of a miracle when no such thing has taken place. For example, most people believe that wheelchair users cannot walk. This isn't usually the case - most people who use wheelchairs can walk. They can't walk very far, they can't walk very well, and they can't walk very steadily, but they can take at least a faltering step or two before collapsing. So an unscrupulous preacher can get an audience hyped up with an hour or more of up-beat repetitive music, bring a wheelchair user onto the stage, pronounce them healed and invite them to get up and walk. When they get up and take a few faltering steps before being caught by an assistant the chances are the crowd will go wild believing they just witnessed a miracle when what they actually witnessed was showmanship that exploited the desire of a paraplegic to be healed while offering nothing. Of course most of the crowd will go away telling the story of the paraplegic who was healed at Joe Blow's rally, and so "testimonies" spread. It's just that nobody is actually healed there.

Just to be clear, I'm not going to say that healing doesn't happen today. I've personally seen a couple of healings that could only be described as miraculous, but I'm increasingly skeptical of people who make grand claims of miracles that always seem to happen somewhere else.
 

tango

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What one hears in a typical charismatic meeting today and that folk in the meeting call tongues is gibberish. There are dozens of recorded examples on yourtube to show that it is gibberish. If any of it was genuine languages spoken under the guidance of the Holy Spirit then there'd be dozens of examples on youtube by now but there is not.

I wouldn't regard Youtube as being a final arbiter of anything like that. It may provide evidence of gibberish being passed off as tongues but the fact there isn't anything on Youtube that can be verified as a genuine gift of tongues doesn't mean it never happens. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

ETA: I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it's worth repeating. Some years ago a friend was praying for me, and at one point his voice lowered and he was clearly speaking some other language. It sounded like it had the structure of a language, although it wasn't anything I recognised. In the last couple of weeks I was looking at some Hebrew words and suddenly realised that one of the words in front of me sounded like the only word I remembered from my friend's prayer. The pronunciation listed against the word matched what he had been saying perfectly. So it doesn't seem hugely far-fetched to believe he was probably praying in Hebrew. I don't believe he knew the Hebrew language.

It's possible he got lucky, it's possible he knew a couple of Hebrew words and made up a load of gibberish around them, it's possible he knew the Hebrew language through study, but I'm not ruling out the distinct possibility that he was speaking in Hebrew through divine guidance.
 

MoreCoffee

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I wouldn't regard Youtube as being a final arbiter of anything like that. It may provide evidence of gibberish being passed off as tongues but the fact there isn't anything on Youtube that can be verified as a genuine gift of tongues doesn't mean it never happens. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

ETA: I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it's worth repeating. Some years ago a friend was praying for me, and at one point his voice lowered and he was clearly speaking some other language. It sounded like it had the structure of a language, although it wasn't anything I recognised. In the last couple of weeks I was looking at some Hebrew words and suddenly realised that one of the words in front of me sounded like the only word I remembered from my friend's prayer. The pronunciation listed against the word matched what he had been saying perfectly. So it doesn't seem hugely far-fetched to believe he was probably praying in Hebrew. I don't believe he knew the Hebrew language.

It's possible he got lucky, it's possible he knew a couple of Hebrew words and made up a load of gibberish around them, it's possible he knew the Hebrew language through study, but I'm not ruling out the distinct possibility that he was speaking in Hebrew through divine guidance.
I am sure that if a chap spoke in tongues in one of the Televangelist's meetings and it was a language then it would be all over the media. But it doesn't happen.
 
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tango

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I am sure that if a chap spoke in tongues in one of the Televangelist's and it was a language then it would be all over the media. But it doesn't happen.

If it were recorded, and if it could be verified that it was a coherent language, and if it could be verified that the speaker didn't have a natural knowledge of the language, you're probably right.

But the fact nobody on a big stage has been recorded as doing something doesn't mean it hasn't happened elsewhere. I must admit the older I get the less I like the huge rally-style outreach event. It just seems so far removed from the notion of seeing how people live their lives day-to-day where you can see for yourself whether they walk the walk or just talk the talk. Anyone can talk a good game for a couple of hours if they've got a bunch of stooges stage-managing everything. It's much harder to fake it if people can see how you live day-to-day, how you respond when someone cuts you up in traffic, how you respond to the slow checkout assistant, how you respond to the street beggar asking for money, how you respond to the waitress who brings you the wrong meal and is clearly struggling on through a Really Bad Day, and so on.

ETA: On reflection, when it's time for the antichrist to rise I wouldn't be at all surprised if at least some of his minions appeared to be Christian ministers and were presented on mainstream media speaking in a verifiable language, while however many of their associates confirmed that they didn't speak the language in question and expressed suitable bafflement at how they spoke it so fluently.
 

MoreCoffee

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If it were recorded, and if it could be verified that it was a coherent language, and if it could be verified that the speaker didn't have a natural knowledge of the language, you're probably right.

But the fact nobody on a big stage has been recorded as doing something doesn't mean it hasn't happened elsewhere. I must admit the older I get the less I like the huge rally-style outreach event. It just seems so far removed from the notion of seeing how people live their lives day-to-day where you can see for yourself whether they walk the walk or just talk the talk. Anyone can talk a good game for a couple of hours if they've got a bunch of stooges stage-managing everything. It's much harder to fake it if people can see how you live day-to-day, how you respond when someone cuts you up in traffic, how you respond to the slow checkout assistant, how you respond to the street beggar asking for money, how you respond to the waitress who brings you the wrong meal and is clearly struggling on through a Really Bad Day, and so on.

ETA: On reflection, when it's time for the antichrist to rise I wouldn't be at all surprised if at least some of his minions appeared to be Christian ministers and were presented on mainstream media speaking in a verifiable language, while however many of their associates confirmed that they didn't speak the language in question and expressed suitable bafflement at how they spoke it so fluently.

I attended an Assembly of God meeting for 18 months and heard hundreds of examples of people 'speaking in tongues' and what they sounded like was quite similar to the youtube examples and the televangelists' televised meetings and not one example was in the least bit like a language with structure, syntax, and vocabulary. Saying
Tikka tikka bushandi kyama yamma yamma batti tikka O tikka bushandi kyama mamma diama
is not speaking in any language. It's just gibberish.
 

tango

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I attended an Assembly of God meeting for 18 months and heard hundreds of examples of people 'speaking in tongues' and what they sounded like was quite similar to the youtube examples and the televangelists' televised meetings and not one example was in the least bit like a language with structure, syntax, and vocabulary. Saying
Tikka tikka bushandi kyama yamma yamma batti tikka O tikka bushandi kyama mamma diama
is not speaking in any language. It's just gibberish.

I've certainly seen my fair share of excess within the charismatic church, and it seems tongues are one of the most abused gifts out there. That's probably because it's so hard to conclusively prove whether someone is talking gibberish or not, and any time a "language" is recorded and found to make no sense in any known human language people can just claim it was an angelic language and wriggle free.

That said, the fact some people fake it and just make up a load of gibberish doesn't mean tongues are not for today any more than the drivel spouted by some so-called "prophets" disqualifies the genuine gift of prophecy for today.
 

MoreCoffee

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I've certainly seen my fair share of excess within the charismatic church, and it seems tongues are one of the most abused gifts out there. That's probably because it's so hard to conclusively prove whether someone is talking gibberish or not, and any time a "language" is recorded and found to make no sense in any known human language people can just claim it was an angelic language and wriggle free.

That said, the fact some people fake it and just make up a load of gibberish doesn't mean tongues are not for today any more than the drivel spouted by some so-called "prophets" disqualifies the genuine gift of prophecy for today.
Yes, there are excesses among the Charismatics but the excess is not really an exception because it is so common that it is present in nearly every meeting and nearly every practitioner engages in it at least once in a while. It is not only speaking in gibberish but also being 'slain in the Spirit' and 'holy laughter' and the more recent jerking and twitching as well as the short lived claims about glitter and gold dust falling from heaven in meetings. Huge numbers accept at least parts of the health & wealth message. The movement is so full of excess and abuses that one wonders why it is popular.

And the 'prophets' in the Charismatic movement do no better; when one takes the time to check what is said by these alleged prophets and test it against holy scripture and against history the vast majority of them fail and fail so badly that it is a wonder that they are listened to by anybody. Some among their number openly say that only a low percentage, 10% or less, of the messages are genuinely prophetic and that even among the famous and most reliable they say that around 20% to 40% of what is said is not genuine. But even 1 non genuine prophetic utterance from one who claims to be a prophet is sufficient to undermine the claim entirely. Who would accept Jesus as the Messiah and Lord if 20% of his prophetic utterances were not genuine? Surely it is impossible to accept that God is author of these utterances when some proportion (no matter how small) is not from God. Even Saint Paul, when speaking his own views and opinion in holy scripture is careful to say that's what he is doing and not to falsely attribute his personal views to God.
 
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psalms 91

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People can be healed by occult power (I know this, I've personally done it). People can apparently be delivered by powers that are nothing to do with God.

The fact someone is healed doesn't in and of itself mean the person doing the healing is anything to do with God. Jesus warned of false prophets who would perform mighty signs and wonders (Matt 24:24), and warned that some people who said "Lord, Lord" would not enter his kingdom (Matt 7:21-23).

Depending on just what is being "healed" it's not always very difficult to fake a healing. A well-placed stooge can be a real boost to a dodgy preacher, and popular beliefs are sufficiently inaccurate that they can be exploited to give the illusion of a miracle when no such thing has taken place. For example, most people believe that wheelchair users cannot walk. This isn't usually the case - most people who use wheelchairs can walk. They can't walk very far, they can't walk very well, and they can't walk very steadily, but they can take at least a faltering step or two before collapsing. So an unscrupulous preacher can get an audience hyped up with an hour or more of up-beat repetitive music, bring a wheelchair user onto the stage, pronounce them healed and invite them to get up and walk. When they get up and take a few faltering steps before being caught by an assistant the chances are the crowd will go wild believing they just witnessed a miracle when what they actually witnessed was showmanship that exploited the desire of a paraplegic to be healed while offering nothing. Of course most of the crowd will go away telling the story of the paraplegic who was healed at Joe Blow's rally, and so "testimonies" spread. It's just that nobody is actually healed there.

Just to be clear, I'm not going to say that healing doesn't happen today. I've personally seen a couple of healings that could only be described as miraculous, but I'm increasingly skeptical of people who make grand claims of miracles that always seem to happen somewhere else.
Again it comes back to spiuritual discernment and knowing what is of God and what isnt. Yes healing can happen as you say but very rarely will it simply because it works against satan and his kingdom and it will not be permanent if it is not of God. If I sense a p[resence in someone or around them that is not of God I take authority over it and cast it out.
 

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tango

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Yes, there are excesses among the Charismatics but the excess is not really an exception because it is so common that it is present in nearly every meeting and nearly every practitioner engages in it at least once in a while. It is not only speaking in gibberish but also being 'slain in the Spirit' and 'holy laughter' and the more recent jerking and twitching as well as the short lived claims about glitter and gold dust falling from heaven in meetings. Huge numbers accept at least parts of the health & wealth message. The movement is so full of excess and abuses that one wonders why it is popular.

This is where balance is crucial. Yes, there is a lot of excess within the charismatic movement and when you get into the hypercharismatic crowd they do all sorts of stupid stuff that bears virtually no resemblance to Scripture and yet they insist it is all of God because "it's anointed". But that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of genuine Godliness within the charismatic movement.

When Paul wrote "test all things" it made it clear that among the excess there is good stuff. If nothing were good there would be nothing to test - it would be as simple as "tongues - bad / prophecy - bad / healing - bad" and so on.

And the 'prophets' in the Charismatic movement do no better; when one takes the time to check what is said by these alleged prophets and test it against holy scripture and against history the vast majority of them fail and fail so badly that it is a wonder that they are listened to by anybody. Some among their number openly say that only a low percentage, 10% or less, of the messages are genuinely prophetic and that even among the famous and most reliable they say that around 20% to 40% of what is said is not genuine. But even 1 non genuine prophetic utterance from one who claims to be a prophet is sufficient to undermine the claim entirely. Who would accept Jesus as the Messiah and Lord if 20% of his prophetic utterances were not genuine? Surely it is impossible to accept that God is author of these utterances when some proportion (no matter how small) is not from God. Even Saint Paul, when speaking his own views and opinion in holy scripture is careful to say that's what he is doing and not to falsely attribute his personal views to God.

This is where we need to consider prophecy in the OT and NT contexts.

In the OT a prophet spoke for God and if he got it wrong he was executed. Even then there were some cases where prophecies never came to pass - the destruction of Ninevah prophesied by Jonah never happened, Isaiah's prophecy of the virgin conceiving the child named Immanuel wasn't fulfilled for hundreds of years, and some of what Daniel prophesied still has yet to be fulfilled. Of course Isaiah and Daniel established a track record rather than just spouting off a load of vague stuff in the hope some of it would come to pass, and of course since the entire city of Ninevah repented it's not such a far-fetched call to say that Jonah's prophecy served its purpose.

In the NT we see Paul saying "let two or three prophets speak and let the others judge". There would be no need to judge if prophets in the NT context were supposed to be infallible, although even there it comes down to how we present a prophetic word. The kind of person who speaks in King James English, proclaiming in a booming voice "Thus saith the Lord" isn't showing a whole lot of humility, and if they get it wrong they need to be reined in one way or another. The kind of person who approaches someone in humility and says "I think God is saying that..." is another matter entirely - they are merely presenting what they believe God to be saying and whoever receives the word can decide for themselves whether it was the result of God speaking or the person eating too much cheese before bed. If such a person gets it wrong once in a while it doesn't warrant the outright rejection of everything they say from then on.

Some web sites out there (The Elijah List comes to mind, I'm sure there are others) present a daily stream of drivel presented as prophetic, usually couched in very spiritual sounding terms (most of their "prophets" seem to be taken up into heaven to receive a message, or woken in the night by an angel who gave them a message, or something equally unusual) that are generally either so vague they could apply to just about anything or specific enough to be tested and found not to have come to pass.

There's probably another Poor Theology thread in there somewhere.
 

tango

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Again it comes back to spiuritual discernment and knowing what is of God and what isnt. Yes healing can happen as you say but very rarely will it simply because it works against satan and his kingdom and it will not be permanent if it is not of God. If I sense a p[resence in someone or around them that is not of God I take authority over it and cast it out.

Why does it work against Satan to heal someone? I'd say it was a pretty good tactic, give someone the healing they so desperately crave and let them give the glory to God for it. Then slowly let the original problem return and watch them cry out wondering why God abandoned them. Rinse and repeat a few times, and the chances are that person's heart will be hardened against the God who plays silly games with them.

Don't be too quick to just cast out a "presence" just because you don't like it. I'm sure you remember what Jesus said in Matt 12:43-45?
 

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I wonder where in scripture it says to cast out presences.


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What one hears in a typical charismatic meeting today and that folk in the meeting call tongues is gibberish. There are dozens of recorded examples on yourtube to show that it is gibberish. If any of it was genuine languages spoken under the guidance of the Holy Spirit then there'd be dozens of examples on youtube by now but there is not.

Yeh.? I clikd a link to some tanzanian speaker..didnt understand a word of it.sounded like gibberish.so it mudt be gibberish...umm nope.
 

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Actually, no, it's not unbelief that prevents people from speaking in tongues. It's that it's not biblical that only those who have enough faith will speak in tongues. That goes against what the New Testament states concerning the topic and what Paul was trying to convince the church to not fall victims to.

True..but the promise of the holy spirit is ..to those that believe. And do you think it is right that those who cannot testify of recieving can then so lightly judge others of speaking gibberish?.its dangerous ground.because the judgment is being based upon the outer appearance.
It is based upon ones own understanding. Upon which we cannot lean.
 

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Yeh.? I clikd a link to some tanzanian speaker..didnt understand a word of it.sounded like gibberish.so it mudt be gibberish...umm nope.

Were they speaking in a language unknown to their listeners?


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Lamb

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True..but the promise of the holy spirit is ..to those that believe. And do you think it is right that those who cannot testify of recieving can then so lightly judge others of speaking gibberish?.its dangerous ground.because the judgment is being based upon the outer appearance.
It is based upon ones own understanding. Upon which we cannot lean.

There seems to be a distortion here with this. God gave gifts to the believers but they weren't given gifts because they believed but because He blessed them with what they needed to carry out the works He had in mind for them to do. Not all people in the New Testament received the gifts of tongues so to assume the others who didn't receive tongues didn't believe enough or didn't have enough faith goes against what Paul spoke of.
 

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I wonder where in scripture it says to cast out presences.


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Did not Jesus cast out demons and devils? What do you think presence that is not of God is?
 

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Did not Jesus cast out demons and devils? What do you think presence that is not of God is?

Where does scripture call demons "presences"? (Hint: it doesn't.).


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