Do I need the Gospel after becoming a Christian?

[Josiah]

I have several reason to believe that God believes we can.

Yeshua said "Go and sin no more" like it is possible.
Many in scriptures are called righteous by God Himself.
Why "overcome" if it is not possible?
Why be "transformed" if it is not enough to be sinless?
Why have a sanctuary service that will put an end to transgressions if it is not possible this side of the millenium?
Why say 144,000 will be without guile?

Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”

Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”

Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the word perfect should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” in the sense of having no sin because there is no other way to be complete in all the Will of God.

I believe that God is looking for people who are willing to go the whole way with Him and reveal to the world and the Devil himself, that there are people that are wholly God's people without sin, in a sinful nature, imbued by the power of the Holy Spirit to live a sinless life. I will add that I believe the people, themselves, will not see it in themselves, and being humble will continue to seek God's Will in all matters.

I disagree.

The Law is no less than attaining the perfection, holiness, love and fullness of God. NO ONE can achieve that (this side of heaven) - with or without "help." If such were the case, then (Scripture says) Christ died in vain. IF such were the case, then Christ's life, death and resurrection was a bad joke, meaningless and irrelevant. IF such were the case, then we never needed a SAVIOR (and thus, God was wrong to send one), what we needed was HELP - which is of course the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism, it's what THOSE religions teach contrary to Christianity.

The Law holds us a standard that we DO NOT attain. It thus drives us to our knees, kills our ego and engrandizing and self-divination. It thus causes us to realize we all fall short, that NO ONE is righteous no not even one, that no one is good (all as Scripture verbatim states). What we need is MERCY, not help.

Now, AFTER we are justified (narrow), AFTER we are Christians, the second (and secondary) use of the Law comes into use - providing for us the will of God. We'll NEVER attain it.... and it CANNOT save us (doesn't need to, Christians are already Christians) but it shows us how to live... a light unto our path.... again, NOT that we'll EVER fully keep it (and thus become the equal of God and render ourselves with no need for God, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy, forgiveness), but it does provide the model for us and we press on to make it our own. Again, not that we ever will (perfectly) but we are to GROW in that, GROW in righteousness, GROW in love, GROW in Christlikeness. Again, NOT so that we can be saved (making SELF the Savior and Jesus a worthless joke), NOT that we'll ever fulfill it (making Scripture a liar since it proclaims that NO ONE is good, NO ONE is righteous, EVERYONE falls short... even SAINT PAUL calls himself the CHIEF of sinners).

What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."




What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.



Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."



Historically, Christians have spoken of ORIGINAL and ACTUALIZED sin.....

Original: The inclination, the propensity, that DISEASE that means we are self-centered, egotistical, self-serving, rebellious. It's what is in our hearts that LEADS to sins, it is the root of sin. When a man shoots his boss, the "problem" didn't start with the bullet entering the guys' chest, it began with something deep in the heart of the shooter - which LEAD to the chain of things that ultimately meant his pointed his gun and pulled the trigger. If I have a cold, I may sneeze. The sneeze is not the disease, it flows from the disease (which I may have even if I'm not sneezing at that microsecond; even if I take enough pills to never sneeze I still have a cold).

Actualized: These are the symptoms. They may be our thoughts or our words or our deeds. They may be known (observed) or not (even the sinner may not be aware of them). They may be thoughts or words of deeds we SHOULD have had but didn't (being imperfect)... they may be thoughts or words or deeds we should NOT have had but did (being sinful).



There are different kinds of Law in the OT

.....


Moral Law: Governs behaviors and our relationships to God, each other and our environment. This still applies.

Ceremonial Law: Governs all the ceremonial aspects of the Old Covenant such as the building of the Ark, clothes priests are to wear, not eating certain foods, observing certain Old Covenant festivals, etc. This does not apply.

Civil Law: Governs the state affairs of the ancient kingdom of the Jews, the divine mandates to the kings vis-a-vis political and international relations. This ceased when Israel fell in 722 BC and Judea fell in 587 BC.




Thank you.


Pax Christi







.

Pax Christi


- Josiah



.

 

[Alithis]

I have several reason to believe that God believes we can.

Yeshua said "Go and sin no more" like it is possible.
Many in scriptures are called righteous by God Himself.
Why "overcome" if it is not possible?
Why be "transformed" if it is not enough to be sinless?
Why have a sanctuary service that will put an end to transgressions if it is not possible this side of the millenium?
Why say 144,000 will be without guile?

Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”

Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”

Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the word perfect should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” in the sense of having no sin because there is no other way to be complete in all the Will of God.

I believe that God is looking for people who are willing to go the whole way with Him and reveal to the world and the Devil himself, that there are people that are wholly God's people without sin, in a sinful nature, imbued by the power of the Holy Spirit to live a sinless life. I will add that I believe the people, themselves, will not see it in themselves, and being humble will continue to seek God's Will in all matters.

i also believe this to be so and it is why i do agree ..

i observe the argument (which is more veiled accusation )that something is being attained by observance of law .. yet the scripture fully and simplistically explain that this is not the case .
sometime folks get tunnel vision onto verses they hear all the time and fail to put the text back into its context ...

for example - this verse : For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

so we observe that they hold that it achieves nothing to abide by the law if the goal is 'to become" righteous ..we cannot .., and in that single context of course they are correct ..
but in the full context of the scripture the verse is snatched from -of then living in a pattern of behaviour that opposes the law -ie being ;lawless, rebellious, disobedient not obeying the gospel nor listening to and obeying the holy Spirit is a display that one is not abiding in christ at all . no one enjoys having it suggested to them that they may be professing a thing with their lips but not living it in actuality .but it is up to the individual to make that judgment of THEMSLEVES and to work out THEIR OWN salvation in this regard as to whether they are indeed abiding ..or in word only .

for when we observe MORE of the scripture in its context we see it says far more ...

for instance -
For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…"

isn't that exciting .. he has made it possible for the righteous standard of the Law to be fulfilled in us- is it the fulfillment of the righteous requirement ..to continue in the practice of sin ? nope sin NEVER fulfills the righteous requirement of the law .christ does and he in us CAN & will.. IF IF IF we listen to his holy Spirit and OBEY the Spirit of the lord we will always DO what is RIGHT and will NOT DO what is EVIL in his sight .
thus the GOSPEL,the good news makes known to us that we can be saved ..and how to be saved .
the GOOD NEWS of JESUS is an instructional message to be heard ,to be grasped by faith and then to be obeyed by that same faith and faith only ..
from that point on when one is born of water (by being buried into christ's death by burial at baptism and made a new creation in christ Jesus (the old has past away) and made alive again by the SPIRIT OF GOD they learn to walk in obedience every increasingly from that day forward for they "put off the old man " they turn away from their old way of sin to walk in the righteousness of the lord JESUS ...
they no longer live by the law saying thous shalt not ...(thus making known to them the will in them to do what they should not ) but they are made a new creation in christ and their heart is changed and now they walk as one who "wills not to " ..they dont want to do those sins any more ..that is the key difference . they have been set free and they dont want to do that sin any more .
and being set free they can only do that sin of they themselves CHOOSE to disobey the holy Spirit and do the sin. it can't happen accidentally .

so as to the OP question ..do we need to keep hearing the original gospel message after being saved .. only if we have not yet truly believed it and are continuing to live in the practice and dominion of continued Unrepentant sin ,deceiving ourselves by implying that we cant stop sinning and thus saying by that implication that Jeuss failed to set us free from sin. but that is a lie the devil wants you to think and is in opposition to the truth of the Gospel. that JEsus came to set us FREE from sin..not leave us languishing in the filth of it .

 

[Lamb]

I disagree.

The Law is no less than attaining the perfection, holiness, love and fullness of God. NO ONE can achieve that (this side of heaven) - with or without "help." If such were the case, then (Scripture says) Christ died in vain. IF such were the case, then Christ's life, death and resurrection was a bad joke, meaningless and irrelevant. IF such were the case, then we never needed a SAVIOR (and thus, God was wrong to send one), what we needed was HELP - which is of course the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism, it's what THOSE religions teach contrary to Christianity.

The Law holds us a standard that we DO NOT attain. It thus drives us to our knees, kills our ego and engrandizing and self-divination. It thus causes us to realize we all fall short, that NO ONE is righteous no not even one, that no one is good (all as Scripture verbatim states). What we need is MERCY, not help.

Now, AFTER we are justified (narrow), AFTER we are Christians, the second (and secondary) use of the Law comes into use - providing for us the will of God. We'll NEVER attain it.... and it CANNOT save us (doesn't need to, Christians are already Christians) but it shows us how to live... a light unto our path.... again, NOT that we'll EVER fully keep it (and thus become the equal of God and render ourselves with no need for God, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy, forgiveness), but it does provide the model for us and we press on to make it our own. Again, not that we ever will (perfectly) but we are to GROW in that, GROW in righteousness, GROW in love, GROW in Christlikeness. Again, NOT so that we can be saved (making SELF the Savior and Jesus a worthless joke), NOT that we'll ever fulfill it (making Scripture a liar since it proclaims that NO ONE is good, NO ONE is righteous, EVERYONE falls short... even SAINT PAUL calls himself the CHIEF of sinners).







Pax Christi


- Josiah



.

Wow, if only Adam and Eve could have followed the law enough to make themselves perfect again. I mean, they were right there walking WITH God! He is the all powerful and they were in His presence. Yet...as you say, Josiah, the law of what we are to do and not do isn't going to save us. We fall in one portion, we fall on the entire lot and that's key to understanding the Law. That's why the Gospel (NOT TWISTED WITH LAW) is ever important to the Christian. It gives us the Savior.

 

[TurtleHare]

Do I need the Gospel after becoming a Christian is like asking the question do I need Jesus anymore which we know is what the anti-Christ wants people to say and believe.

 

[psalms 91]

Yup

 

[Alithis]

Do I need the Gospel after becoming a Christian is like asking the question do I need Jesus anymore which we know is what the anti-Christ wants people to say and believe.

no its not the same at all

the gospel is the good news about Jesus .

it brings us to JEsus ..
if we have received the good news and obeyed its instruction .then we are reconciled to God .. we don't need to message of how to enter into the door once we are inside the door .
so while we continue to need the one the message leads us to ,we don't need the message, unless we have not yet heeded it and are still outside the door.still lost in sin.

 

[Alithis]

Wow, if only Adam and Eve could have followed the law enough to make themselves perfect again. I mean, they were right there walking WITH God! He is the all powerful and they were in His presence. Yet...as you say, Josiah, the law of what we are to do and not do isn't going to save us. We fall in one portion, we fall on the entire lot and that's key to understanding the Law. That's why the Gospel (NOT TWISTED WITH LAW) is ever important to the Christian. It gives us the Savior.

and what does the Savior do ?
reconciles us to that relations ship of walking with God that Adam and eve had . and how does he do this .. by putting to death the nature of the sinful man in us and raising us to new life with HIS nature in us .
its nothing about keeping law
it is everything about walking again WITH him .. not walking opposed to him .if we who are free from the power of sin then chose to do what we know to be sinful then we are simply repeating Adams disobedience- but Jesus came to st us free make us new make us over-comers reconcile us etc ..
i'm continually stunned by the manner in which folks here are refusing to believe that the lord JESUS can DO what he said he can do .
John says if we continue in the practice of sin..we do not know god nor have we seen him . because when we know God and are reconciled to him and are born agin of the Holy Spirit of God we are made a new creation and given power to overcome this world .

but so few seem to either believe that or so few want to believe that ,they seem to prefer stating the opposite.perhaps they prefer thier sin to his rightousness which he so graciously bestows upon us .we aregiven a choice to cast of the old man and live in the new ..OR we cast of the rightousness of Giod to continue in sin..
we cant have it both ways .
the lord Jesus came to FREE us for the express purpose of being freed to live in righteousness . not to remain in sin.

sin is and always will be ,acting in disobedience to god
acting in opposition the direct will of God who is life -thus opposing life .
acting in rebellion to what we know to be right .

 

[Lamb]

When we know how to properly discern between Law and Gospel then we can see the importance of each. The Law shows us our sin and the Gospel forgives.

But the Gospel is also what gives us faith! The Law does not give faith.

For those who don't think they need the Gospel then they are starving themselves from growing in faith. Our faith grasps onto the forgiveness that the Savior won for us at the cross so that we have eternal life. To say we don't need that is pure foolishness.

 

[Alithis]

When we know how to properly discern between Law and Gospel then we can see the importance of each. The Law shows us our sin and the Gospel forgives.

But the Gospel is also what gives us faith! The Law does not give faith.

For those who don't think they need the Gospel then they are starving themselves from growing in faith. Our faith grasps onto the forgiveness that the Savior won for us at the cross so that we have eternal life. To say we don't need that is pure foolishness.

The Gospel ia a mesage.. IT is an it...Jesus is who It is about.
Paul states "i am not ashamed of the gospel(good news) of jesusfor "it" is the power of god unto salvation to all who believe.
So once we have received the message and followed its instruction.why do we still need the message.? The message instructs. Us how to enter through the door.jesus is the door.once we have entered why do we still need the instruction on how to enter?
We are to go forward into everything else he has for us.
It is unbelief that bars the way to entering in .

The law shows us our sin
The good news shows and instructs us how to be saved from our sin.

When we obey the gospels message.
The Father forgives us because of what the son has done.
The message tells us to repent from sin and be baptised for the remission of sin.

No repentance... No obedience.
No obedience =disobedience .
Remaining disobedeint. Is Not repentance.

Repent.
Dont worry .put your faith in God and he gives us the power to overcome sin ..

It is the goodnews he came to declare..
Freedom
Deliverence
Reconciliation
Restoration
Victory
Healing
.
Not to leave us broken and enslaved.

 

[Lamb]

So you keep returning to the Law to save you instead of the Gospel...that message that saves and gives us life and renewal. You keep twisting Law and Gospel thinking one is the other and that makes you your own Savior as Josiah keeps pointing out to you and it's called ME THEOLOGY. You make your doctrine about you all the while insisting you rely on Jesus, but in the end it's what YOU do and not what Jesus does that saves you. It's obvious to others but you are so caught up in you that you can't see it.

 

[Josiah]

So you keep returning to the Law to save you instead of the Gospel...that message that saves and gives us life and renewal. You keep twisting Law and Gospel thinking one is the other and that makes you your own Savior as Josiah keeps pointing out to you and it's called ME THEOLOGY. You make your doctrine about you all the while insisting you rely on Jesus, but in the end it's what YOU do and not what Jesus does that saves you. It's obvious to others but you are so caught up in you that you can't see it.

This is what enemies of the Gospel do.... they BURY it under the Law, subject it to the Law. It destroys it, makes Christ ultimately irrelevant and denies Him as Savior (He is... instead.... little more than a HELPER or POSSIBILITY-MAKER.... if that)

Christ is simply denied and replaced with ME. ME saves ME by becoming so goody-goody that self don't need no Christ, self don't need no God, self don't need no mercy, self don't need no forgiveness cuz self is sinless, obedient, perfect..... It's self looking to the Law (so watered down as to become meaningless) rather than to the Cross, it's self looking in a rose-colored mirror rather than to Jesus, it's self proclaiming the glory of SELF instead of the mercy of Christ. It is a rejection of the central point of Christianity (what makes it CHRISTian) and the embrace of the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism (SELF don't need no Savior, self just needs help and time; self can be obedient and sinless). Enemies of the Gospel do this by entangling, confusing, mixing Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and Christ.... so as to BURY Christ under the engrandizment of promoting of SELF..... ME theology, the "Theology of Glory", the destruction of the Gospel.

The destruction of and opposition to the Gospel mandates that Christ is made as small as possible and self as big as possible.... it requires an enormous ego, so much that self declares self to have MET the Law, fulfilled the Law and thus can rely on the Law to save and thus don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy. Amazing ego. Amazingly silliness that OBVIOUSLY isn't true - just egotistical and destructive of Christianity.

What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."



What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."



Historically, Christians have spoken of ORIGINAL and ACTUALIZED sin.....

Original: The inclination, the propensity, that DISEASE that means we are self-centered, egotistical, self-serving, rebellious. It's what is in our hearts that LEADS to sins, it is the root of sin. When a man shoots his boss, the "problem" didn't start with the bullet entering the guys' chest, it began with something deep in the heart of the shooter - which LEAD to the chain of things that ultimately meant his pointed his gun and pulled the trigger. If I have a cold, I may sneeze. The sneeze is not the disease, it flows from the disease (which I may have even if I'm not sneezing at that microsecond; even if I take enough pills to never sneeze I still have a cold).

Actualized: These are the symptoms. They may be our thoughts or our words or our deeds. They may be known (observed) or not (even the sinner may not be aware of them). They may be thoughts or words of deeds we SHOULD have had but didn't (being imperfect)... they may be thoughts or words or deeds we should NOT have had but did (being sinful).



There are different kinds of Law in the OT


Moral Law: Governs behaviors and our relationships to God, each other and our environment. This still applies.

Ceremonial Law: Governs all the ceremonial aspects of the Old Covenant such as the building of the Ark, clothes priests are to wear, not eating certain foods, observing certain Old Covenant festivals, etc. This does not apply.

Civil Law: Governs the state affairs of the ancient kingdom of the Jews, the divine mandates to the kings vis-a-vis political and international relations. This ceased when Israel fell in 722 BC and Judea fell in 587 BC.



.

- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

This is what enemies of the Gospel do.... they BURY it under the Law, subject it to the Law. It destroys it, makes Christ ultimately irrelevant and denies Him as Savior (He is... instead.... little more than a HELPER or POSSIBILITY-MAKER.... if that)

Christ is simply denied and replaced with ME. ME saves ME by becoming so goody-goody that self don't need no Christ, self don't need no God, self don't need no mercy, self don't need no forgiveness cuz self is sinless, obedient, perfect..... It's self looking to the Law (so watered down as to become meaningless) rather than to the Cross, it's self looking in a rose-colored mirror rather than to Jesus, it's self proclaiming the glory of SELF instead of the mercy of Christ. It is a rejection of the central point of Christianity (what makes it CHRISTian) and the embrace of the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism (SELF don't need no Savior, self just needs help and time; self can be obedient and sinless). Enemies of the Gospel do this by entangling, confusing, mixing Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and Christ.... so as to BURY Christ under the engrandizment of promoting of SELF..... ME theology, the "Theology of Glory", the destruction of the Gospel.

The destruction of and opposition to the Gospel mandates that Christ is made as small as possible and self as big as possible.... it requires an enormous ego, so much that self declares self to have MET the Law, fulfilled the Law and thus can rely on the Law to save and thus don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy. Amazing ego. Amazingly silliness that OBVIOUSLY isn't true - just egotistical and destructive of Christianity.











- Josiah



.

It's so dangerous to give self so much importance as to believe that they contribute to their salvation and as you've pointed out and making Christ irrelevant.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What a chap believes and how he lives does matter. There's no good purpose served by saying that it does not.

 

[psalms 91]

I agree that we are to live and speak according to the gospel, we should always be moving towards that

 

[Lamb]

What a chap believes and how he lives does matter. There's no good purpose served by saying that it does not.

It doesn't contribute to our salvation though since Christ is our Savior who SAVES. What we believe is the forgiveness of our sins won at the cross. How we live is because we love God and our neighbor. We don't have to earn our way to heaven and never could fully earn it anyway.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It doesn't contribute to our salvation though since Christ is our Savior who SAVES. What we believe is the forgiveness of our sins won at the cross. How we live is because we love God and our neighbor. We don't have to earn our way to heaven and never could fully earn it anyway.

You say that a chap's way of life does not contribute to salvation but the Lord says the opposite. ""When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."" (Matthew 25:31-46)

 

[Lamb]

You say that a chap's way of life does not contribute to salvation but the Lord says the opposite. ""When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."" (Matthew 25:31-46)

It's so funny you use that verse to try to prove your point when in fact it does the opposite.

Those people in that verse who try to work their way are the ones who fail since they aren't trusting in Jesus by faith.

Those who are in faith are doing works without even knowing it (because the Holy Spirit guides us into doing good works and producing fruit).

You see also at the beginning that it speaks of separating the sheep from the goats. The goats are the non-believers (those working their way to heaven without Jesus) and the sheep are the saved, they aren't working to gain heaven but they did help their neighbors. We are all created in God's image and we are called to love God and our neighbors. Good works don't earn heaven but they do help those in need who are created in God's image.

 

[psalms 91]

Amen Lamm

 

[Josiah]

Jesus is not the PART - Savior. [I wish those who believe that Jesus is the PART Savior would at least admit and be honest about that, stopping to call Jesus the Savior when they fundamentally reject that He is).


It's NOT a case that Jesus did what He could but He failed (pur fella) AND NEEDS OUR HELP (we being so much more capable than He) so as to finish it and get it right. It's not a synergistic, Pelagian, cooperative venture where Jesus does WHAT HE CAN but we gotta clean it up and do the part that actually matters, that actually results in our getting into heaven. I had Catholic teachers who taught this..... "Jesus opened that gate to heaven but YOU gotta get YOURSELF through it by what YOU do." It's a rejection of Jesus as the Savior and replacing it with Jesus the POSSIBILITY MAKER.



Back to the issue of this thread..... sorry for participating in the diversion.....



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

You say that a chap's way of life does not contribute to salvation but the Lord says the opposite. ""When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."" (Matthew 25:31-46)

It's so funny you use that verse to try to prove your point when in fact it does the opposite.

Those people in that verse who try to work their way are the ones who fail since they aren't trusting in Jesus by faith.

Those who are in faith are doing works without even knowing it (because the Holy Spirit guides us into doing good works and producing fruit).

You see also at the beginning that it speaks of separating the sheep from the goats. The goats are the non-believers (those working their way to heaven without Jesus) and the sheep are the saved, they aren't working to gain heaven but they did help their neighbors. We are all created in God's image and we are called to love God and our neighbors. Good works don't earn heaven but they do help those in need who are created in God's image.

So the folk who did nothing because they never saw a need (or opportunity) and apparently never had a desire to serve the suffering, needy, hungry, poor and so forth are the ones that you think were trying to earn their way to heaven? Come on, you can't be serious. Oh, and seriously, where does the passage say that the "goats" were non-believers? That isn't said anywhere in the passage. They were non-doers. They seem to have acknowledged Jesus as their Lord but they didn't DO a thing to live-out that belief in their lives.

The folk who receive a commendation from the Lord and are welcomed into heaven are the ones who did help the poor, hungry, suffering and so forth. They did it without even thinking that by so doing they were serving the Lord himself yet they were. It takes a special kind of blindness not to notice the words "Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' "