Name those sins Christ didn't die for

[psalms 91]

yup MC

 

[MoreCoffee]

I can't help but think that the theology behind your statements attempts to mix eternity with time and ends up with confusion. Truly God knows all things from the beginning yet it is also true that men do not and that being time bound in this world men and women must plod through the moments of sin, repentance, forgiveness, and restoration one after the other.

yup MC

It's a mystery to me why these divisions are invented.

 

[TurtleHare]

It seems that aside from himself Christ died to benefit all human beings who receive him as saviour.

I've read through your posts and even though you make a statement that you believe Christ died to benefit all human beings, you don't believe that his death actually did any bit of good since you are denying all the posts that proclaim his death as being where our sins were atoned at the cross? You keep arguing that they aren't forgiven there and even argue the scripture that has been pointed out to you so that you can look to your Church for your own forgiveness and to your good works instead of the Christ.

Please, MoreCoffee name off those sins of yours that Christ did not die at the cross for? You seem to not be believing His death had anything to do with the forgiveness of your sins so prove everyone wrong.

 

[psalms 91]

It is only Him and not any man that can forgive sins

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've read through your posts and even though you make a statement that you believe Christ died to benefit all human beings, you don't believe that his death actually did any bit of good

That is not the truth. I believe that the passion of the Christ and his incarnation as well as his life of obedience actually did more than any earthly human being knows or can say. Let me summarise:

"JESUS CHRIST SUFFERED UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, WAS CRUCIFIED, DIED AND WAS BURIED"

571 The Paschal mystery of Christ's cross and Resurrection stands at the centre of the Good News that the apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the world. God's saving plan was accomplished "once for all"[SUP]313[/SUP] by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ.

572 The Church remains faithful to the interpretation of "all the Scriptures" that Jesus gave both before and after his Passover: "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"[SUP]314[/SUP] Jesus' sufferings took their historical, concrete form from the fact that he was "rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes", who handed "him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified".[SUP]315[/SUP]

573 Faith can therefore try to examine the circumstances of Jesus' death, faithfully handed on by the Gospels[SUP]316[/SUP] and illuminated by other historical sources, the better to understand the meaning of the Redemption.

313 ⇒ Heb 9:26.
314 ⇒ Lk 24:26-27, ⇒ 44-45.
315 ⇒ Mk 8:31; ⇒ Mt 20:19.
316 Cf. DV 19.​

I. CHRIST'S REDEMPTIVE DEATH IN GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION

"Jesus handed over according to the definite plan of God"

599 Jesus' violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God's plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus (was) delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."[SUP]393[/SUP] This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.[SUP]394[/SUP]

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."[SUP]395[/SUP] For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.[SUP]396[/SUP]

"He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures"

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.[SUP]397[/SUP] Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."[SUP]398[/SUP] In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfils Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant.[SUP]399[/SUP] Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God's suffering Servant.[SUP]400[/SUP] After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.[SUP]401[/SUP]

"For our sake God made him to be sin"

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."[SUP]402[/SUP] Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.[SUP]403[/SUP] By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."[SUP]404[/SUP]

603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.[SUP]405[/SUP] But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[SUP]406[/SUP] Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son".[SUP]407[/SUP]

God takes the initiative of universal redeeming love

604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins."[SUP]408[/SUP] God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."[SUP]409[/SUP]

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."[SUP]410[/SUP] He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.[SUP]411[/SUP] The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."[SUP]412[/SUP]

393 ⇒ Acts 2:23.
394 Cf. ⇒ Acts 3:13.
395 ⇒ Acts 4:27-28; cf. ⇒ Ps 2:1-2.
396 Cf. ⇒ Mt 26:54; ⇒ Jn 18:36; ⇒ 19:11; ⇒ Acts 3:17-18.
397 ⇒ Is 53:11; cf. ⇒ 53:12; ⇒ Jn 8 34-36; ⇒ Acts 3:14.
398 ⇒ 1 Cor 15:3; cf. also ⇒ Acts 3:18; ⇒ 7:52; ⇒ 13:29; ⇒ 26:22-23.
399 Cf. ⇒ Is 53:7-8 and ⇒ Acts 8:32-35.
400 Cf. ⇒ Mt 20:28.
401 Cf. ⇒ Lk 24:25-27, ⇒ 44-45.
402 I Pt 1:18-20.
403 Cf. ⇒ Rom 5:12; ⇒ I Cor 15:56.
404 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:21; cf. ⇒ Phil 2:7; ⇒ Rom 8:3.
405 Cf. ⇒ Jn 8:46.
406 ⇒ Mk 15:34; ⇒ Ps 22:2; cf. ⇒ Jn 8:29.
407 ⇒ Rom 8:32; ⇒ 5:10.
408 ⇒ I John 4:10; ⇒ 4:19.
409 ⇒ Rom 5:8.
410 ⇒ Mt 18:14.
411 ⇒ Mt 20:28; cf. ⇒ Rom 5:18-19.
412 Council of Quiercy (853): DS 624; cf. ⇒ 2 Cor 5:15; I ⇒ Jn 2:2[ETML:C/].​

(Catechism of the Catholic Church)​

since you are denying all the posts that proclaim his death as being where our sins were atoned at the cross? You keep arguing that they aren't forgiven there and even argue the scripture that has been pointed out to you so that you can look to your Church for your own forgiveness and to your good works instead of the Christ.

Please, MoreCoffee name off those sins of yours that Christ did not die at the cross for? You seem to not be believing His death had anything to do with the forgiveness of your sins so prove everyone wrong.

 

[Lamb]

Nice. From your quote.

The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.

 

[psalms 91]

Not just sin, salvation covers so much more

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nice. From your quote.

The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.

Yes, it is nice. Glad that you approve. There is more, I had to leave it out because of the size restriction on posts. Here is what I left out.

III. CHRIST OFFERED HIMSELF TO HIS FATHER FOR OUR SINS

Christ's whole life is an offering to the Father

606 The Son of God, who came down "from heaven, not to do (his) own will, but the will of him who sent (him)",[SUP]413 [/SUP]said on coming into the world, "Lo, I have come to do your will, O God." "and by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."[SUP]414 [/SUP]From the first moment of his Incarnation the Son embraces the Father's plan of divine salvation in his redemptive mission: "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work."[SUP]415 [/SUP]The sacrifice of Jesus "for the sins of the whole world"[SUP]416 [/SUP]expresses his loving communion with the Father. "The Father loves me, because I lay down my life", said the Lord, "(for) I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father."[SUP]417[/SUP]

607 The desire to embrace his Father's plan of redeeming love inspired Jesus' whole life,[SUP]418 [/SUP]for his redemptive passion was the very reason for his Incarnation. and so he asked, "and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour."[SUP]419[/SUP] and again, "Shall I not drink the cup which the Father has given me?"[SUP]420 [/SUP]From the cross, just before "It is finished", he said, "I thirst."[SUP]421[/SUP]

"The Lamb who takes away the sin of the world"

608 After agreeing to baptize him along with the sinners, John the Baptist looked at Jesus and pointed him out as the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world".[SUP]422 [/SUP]By doing so, he reveals that Jesus is at the same time the suffering Servant who silently allows himself to be led to the slaughter and who bears the sin of the multitudes, and also the Paschal Lamb, the symbol of Israel's redemption at the first Passover.[SUP]423 [/SUP]Christ's whole life expresses his mission: "to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."[SUP]424[/SUP]

Jesus freely embraced the Father's redeeming love

609 By embracing in his human heart the Father's love for men, Jesus "loved them to the end", for "greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."425 In suffering and death his humanity became the free and perfect instrument of his divine love which desires the salvation of men.426 Indeed, out of love for his Father and for men, whom the Father wants to save, Jesus freely accepted his Passion and death: "No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord."427 Hence the sovereign freedom of God's Son as he went out to his death.428

At the Last Supper Jesus anticipated the free offering of his life

610 Jesus gave the supreme expression of his free offering of himself at the meal shared with the twelve Apostles "on the night he was betrayed". On the eve of his Passion, while still free, Jesus transformed this Last Supper with the apostles into the memorial of his voluntary offering to the Father for the salvation of men: "This is my body which is given for you." "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."430

611 The Eucharist that Christ institutes at that moment will be the memorial of his sacrifice.431 Jesus includes the apostles in his own offering and bids them perpetuate it.432 By doing so, the Lord institutes his apostles as priests of the New Covenant: "For their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth."433

The agony at Gethsemani

612 The cup of the New Covenant, which Jesus anticipated when he offered himself at the Last Supper, is afterwards accepted by him from his Father's hands in his agony in the garden at Gethsemani,434 making himself "obedient unto death". Jesus prays: "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. . ."435 Thus he expresses the horror that death represented for his human nature. Like ours, his human nature is destined for eternal life; but unlike ours, it is perfectly exempt from sin, the cause of death.436 Above all, his human nature has been assumed by the divine person of the "Author of life", the "Living One".437 By accepting in his human will that the Father's will be done, he accepts his death as redemptive, for "he himself bore our sins in his body on the tree."438

Christ's death is the unique and definitive sacrifice

613 Christ's death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world",439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the "blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins".440

614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices.441 First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.442

Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience

615 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin", when "he bore the sin of many", and who "shall make many to be accounted righteous", for "he shall bear their iniquities".444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.

Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross

616 It is love "to the end"446 that confers on Christ's sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life.447 Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died."448 No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. the existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation"449 and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us." and the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."

Our participation in Christ's sacrifice

618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men".452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow (him)",454 for "Christ also suffered for (us), leaving (us) an example so that (we) should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457 Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458

413 ⇒ Jn 6:38.
414 ⇒ Heb 10:5-10.
415 ⇒ Jn 4:34.
416 1 ⇒ Jn 2:2
417 ⇒ Jn 10:17; ⇒ 14:31.
418 Cf ⇒ Lk 12:50; ⇒ 22:15; ⇒ Mt 16:21-23.
419 ⇒ Jn 12:27.
420 ⇒ Jn 18:11.
421 ⇒ Jn 19:30; ⇒ 19:28.
422 ⇒ Jn 1:29; cf. ⇒ Lk 3:21; ⇒ Mt 3:14-15; ⇒ Jn 1:36.
423 ⇒ Is 53:7, ⇒ 12; cf. Jer 11:19; ⇒ Ex 12:3-14; ⇒ Jn 19:36; ⇒ 1 Cor 5:7.
424 ⇒ Mk 10:45.
425 ⇒ Jn 13:1; ⇒ 15:13.
426 Cf. ⇒ Heb 2:10, ⇒ 17-18; ⇒ 4:15; ⇒ 5:7-9.
427 ⇒ Jn 10:18.
428 Cf. ⇒ Jn 18:4-6; ⇒ Mt 26:53.
429 Roman Missal, EP III; cf. ⇒ Mt 26:20; ⇒ I Cor 11:23.
430 ⇒ Lk 22:19; ⇒ Mt 26:28; cf. ⇒ I5.7Cor 5:7.
431 ⇒ 1 Cor 11:25.
432 Cf. ⇒ Lk 22:19.
433 ⇒ Jn 17:19; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1752; 1764.
434 Cf. ⇒ Mt 26:42; ⇒ Lk 22:20.
435 ⇒ Phil 2:8; ⇒ Mt 26:39; cf. ⇒ Heb 5:7-8.
436 Cf. ⇒ Rom 5:12; ⇒ Heb 4:15.
437 Cf. ⇒ Acts 3:15; ⇒ Rev 1:17; ⇒ Jn 1:4; ⇒ 5:26.
438 2 Pt 224; cf. ⇒ Mt 26:42.
439 ⇒ Jn 1:29; cf. ⇒ 8:34-36; ⇒ 1 Cor 5:7; ⇒ 2 Pt 1:19.
440 ⇒ Mt 26:28; cf. ⇒ Ex 24:8; ⇒ Lev 16:15-16; ⇒ 2 Cor 11:25.
441 Cf. ⇒ Heb 10:10.
442 Cf. ⇒ Jn 10:17-18; ⇒ 15:13; ⇒ Heb 9:14; ⇒ 1 Jn 4:10.
443 ⇒ Rom 5:19.
444 ⇒ Is 53:10-12.
446 ⇒ Jn 13:1.
447 Cf. ⇒ Gal 2:20; ⇒ Eph 5:2, ⇒ 25.
448 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:14.
449 ⇒ Heb 5:9.
452 1 Tim 2:5.
453 GS 22 # 5; cf. # 2.
454 ⇒ Mt 16:24.
455 I Pt 2:21.
456 Cf ⇒ Mk 10:39; ⇒ Jn 21:18-19; ⇒ Col 1:24.
457 Cf. ⇒ Lk 2:35.
​

 

[TurtleHare]

MoreCoffee has so graciously provided us with his Church’s beliefs and after reading through them we now see that he doesn’t even follow his own Church’s theology but instead questions them here and even denies them on the board.

Here are some of MoreCoffee’s posts and please forgive my poor formatting as I struggle with that and I have put effects on type so that it brings to your attention the discrepancies:
http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...OUR-works-or-CHRIST-S-works&p=39562#post39562
If they were forgiven 2,000 years ago then why ask now for forgiveness?
http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...-sins-Christ-didn-t-die-for&p=40056#post40056
Do you mean that every sins that has ever been sinned and ever will be sinned was paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ? Does that mean that all sins sinned over all time are forgiven?
Ransom? Paid to who or what? What do you mean by "or else" if all sins that have ever been sinned and ever will be sinned are paid for how can there be an "or else one will have to pay the price that was originally set for sin"?
http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...-sins-Christ-didn-t-die-for&p=40188#post40188
Does redeeming the whole world - presumably meaning every single individual that's lived over all time past, present, and future - mean that all of them are forgiven for every sin and hence have no sins to answer for at the last judgement?
http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...OUR-works-or-CHRIST-S-works&p=39844#post39844
You're confusing the work of Christ in taking away the sins of the world with forgiveness. But I am beginning to see the pattern, the obscuring of scriptural teaching with denominational doctrine.


From his church’s doctrine:
601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.
Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures." 398
In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfils Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant. 399
602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."
By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 404
But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: 406
Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son".407
He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.411
The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."412
613 Christ's death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world",439
617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation"449 and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us."

 

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee has so graciously provided us with his Church’s beliefs ...

That is right, they are my beliefs too.

The rest of your post appears to mistake questions for statements. Surely the use of a question mark (?) is a clear sign that a question is being asked? Yet you claim that my questions somehow contradict Catholic Church teaching - amazing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've read through your posts and even though you make a statement that you believe Christ died to benefit all human beings, you don't believe that his death actually did any bit of good since you are denying all the posts that proclaim his death as being where our sins were atoned at the cross? You keep arguing that they aren't forgiven there and even argue the scripture that has been pointed out to you so that you can look to your Church for your own forgiveness and to your good works instead of the Christ.

Please, MoreCoffee name off those sins of yours that Christ did not die at the cross for? You seem to not be believing His death had anything to do with the forgiveness of your sins so prove everyone wrong.

You ask: name off those sins of yours that Christ did not die at the cross for?

I reply: None that I know of. Why do you ask?

 

[psalms 91]

A question that we all know the answer to

 

[MoreCoffee]

A question that we all know the answer to

Then it seems hardly worth asking since all know the answer including the one who asked.

 

[Lamb]

Nice. From your quote.

The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.

I was asked why I underlined in red and the reason is because it SEEMED as if someone was arguing against those beliefs but it now appears he was only playing devil's advocate. :slap:

 

[Full O Beans]

it now appears he was only playing devil's advocate. :slap:

A very dangerous game, flirting with doubt on purpose.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I was asked why I underlined in red and the reason is because it SEEMED as if someone was arguing against those beliefs but it now appears he was only playing devil's advocate. :slap:

Who would do such a thing?

 

[psalms 91]

Yeah, you dont know

 

[Josiah]

MoreCoffee has so graciously provided us with his Church’s beliefs and after reading through them we now see that he doesn’t even follow his own Church’s theology but instead questions them here and even denies them on the board.

Here are some of MoreCoffee’s posts and please forgive my poor formatting as I struggle with that and I have put effects on type so that it brings to your attention the discrepancies:
http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...OUR-works-or-CHRIST-S-works&p=39562#post39562
If they were forgiven 2,000 years ago then why ask now for forgiveness?
http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...-sins-Christ-didn-t-die-for&p=40056#post40056
Do you mean that every sins that has ever been sinned and ever will be sinned was paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ? Does that mean that all sins sinned over all time are forgiven?
Ransom? Paid to who or what? What do you mean by "or else" if all sins that have ever been sinned and ever will be sinned are paid for how can there be an "or else one will have to pay the price that was originally set for sin"?
http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...-sins-Christ-didn-t-die-for&p=40188#post40188
Does redeeming the whole world - presumably meaning every single individual that's lived over all time past, present, and future - mean that all of them are forgiven for every sin and hence have no sins to answer for at the last judgement?
http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...OUR-works-or-CHRIST-S-works&p=39844#post39844
You're confusing the work of Christ in taking away the sins of the world with forgiveness. But I am beginning to see the pattern, the obscuring of scriptural teaching with denominational doctrine.


From his church’s doctrine:
601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.
Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures." 398
In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfils Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant. 399
602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."
By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 404
But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: 406
Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son".407
He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.411
The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."412
613 Christ's death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world",439
617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation"449 and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us."

This relates better to a host of other threads, but your EXCELLENT work here IS important. As I've stated many times here at CH, the official position of the individual RC Denomination is difficult (I sense, impossible) to determine: partly because it seems to hold to many different views and because it seems to use words very loosely and in confusing ways. I'm not sure the Pope in Rome knows what the current official position of the individual RC Denomination is in terms of justification (narrow). BUT, I agree, it IS possible to pick and choose things in such a way as to come up with something soundly Lutheran, something to which Luther and Calvin would gladly and passionately agree with (I've read some of those official snippets). But, here's the thing..... Luther and Calvin were excommunicated for teaching that Jesus is the Savior, the RC Denomination split itself over this issue, kicking out those who affirm that Jesus is the Savior, and to this day, no Protestant view angers the RC more than this one.

This is why I don't state what the RC Denomination officially holds. I don't think there is a human being on the planet who KNOWS what the RC Denomination holds on this - such a mixed up, entanged, confused MESS it is. BUT I DO know what Catholics tend to teach on this! All the former Catholics know because we were taught - by our Catholic teachers, in First Communion and Confirmation classes, in studies and sermons, etc. And of course, by Catholic friends and by Catholic posters like our good friend and important community member More Coffee. It's, "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what you do." "Jesus HELPS you to be what you become." "Grace is like 'gas' that God puts in your tank so that you can get yourself where you need to be." We were taught that Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE but he's not the Savior - y0u are. We were taught that Jesus HELPS us (we cannot save ourselves by our own innate, natural abilities) but that what is accomplished is what we do. It's essentially the Jewish, Islamic, and sometime Hindu view of soteriology - with the word "Jesus" surplanting the word "God" so that it SEEMS thereby Christian. It's self looking in the mirror at self (made worthy by the empowering of the divine). Indeed, some Catholics will go on and on and on and on with this topic of justification (narrow) and barely - IF AT ALL - even mention Jesus (!!!!!!!!!), and probably never mention the Cross, the Blood, mercy.... just going on and on about themselves, what they do and have done (although a FEW will join with Jews, Muslims and Hindus to mention such was done by the power of the divine - although most Catholics seem to not claim such).

WHO is the Savior? Try answering that: clearly, definitively.


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Or another way of looking at this, in terms of justification (narrow) where are you looking? To the mirror or to the Cross?



Which is it?





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Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah



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[MoreCoffee]

Yeah, you dont know

No, I do not. Do you?

 

[TurtleHare]

Ya mean to tell me I've been played? :nonono: