Dead know not anything...

[visionary]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (NIV)
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

This is picked up from another thread because it deserves a thread of its own.

The biblical understanding of the dead is like Yeshua said when speaking about Lazarus... "He sleeps" ... and it clearly defines it in scripture.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.... 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

King David slept with his fathers. So did a lot of kings.

1 Kings 2:10 So David slept with his fathers....
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=slept+with++fathers&qs_version=KJV

The power and value of the resurrection lies in what dies and is brought to life again. There is no question as to whether the body dies, as we all have seen, heard, and experience loss through death. We could be like Sadducees and see no need for a resurrection.

Acts 23:8: “For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection...."
If we go directly to heaven at death, are we dead?

Scriptural facts

When God made man, it was out of the dust of the earth, breathed upon by His breath and made into a living soul. Is there a dead soul? If dust is 1 and breath is another 1 then the living soul would be 2. But if you remove the breath, then all you are left with is 1.

The dead don't know anything

Eccl. 9:5,10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Thoughts perish Ps. 146:4

The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Souls die.
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

What good is a death sentence if you continue to live after death? What power or need for an resurrection if you are already in heaven?

The body returns to dust...the souls of those redeemed at the alter of heaven are held under the alter(the blood of the alter has become one with them)and the spirit returns to God from which it came...so the body corrupts the soul sleeps and the spirit comes again at resurrection at the last day...

 

[visionary]

Could we consider "sleep" Yeshua's term for death?

John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I would say the terms "sleep/slept" and "death/died/dies" are interchangeable in this context.

 

[visionary]

Two things scripture gives us clear indication. One is that the body returns to the dust fro which it is made.
Ps 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

The second thing is the breath, spark of life, or human spirit is returned to God upon death.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Even if the term "spirit" is the "spirit of God" indwelling the believer at the time of death.

 

[visionary]

The lie about death...

Are not seances meetings in which the devil tries to send his deadly messages to unwary people through a human medium who is supposed to be able to communicate with the so-called spirits of the dead? Does not scripture warn against such conversations. The greatest of all seances in the Bible occurred when Saul went to the Witch of Endor, described in the Scriptures as "a woman that hath a familiar spirit"--that is, a woman who received messages from an evil angel who claimed to be the "spirit" of any particular dead person you want to communicate with and asked her to bring up Samuel from the dead since "the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets?"

Since when does a man of God go to the devil for advice when the Lord explicitly said
Lev 19:31 "Regard not them that have familiar spirits,...to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God"? ( IT is also in Isa. 8:19, 20).

The Bible plainly states
Ps 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence;"
for when a man dies,
Ps 146:4 "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is your theology committed to soul sleep too?

 

[visionary]

sleep = death

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

As I said before The kings of Israel.. "slept with their fathers" and this is throughout scriptures covering centuries.

1 Kings 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

And years later... David is still dead and buried..

Acts 2:29 Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said..

1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 14:20
And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 14:31
And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

etc...

Sleep and resurrection...

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Every time Yeshua spoke of the dead.. He explains their state of dead..

Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Remember Lazarus..

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep....... 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Yeshua should know as our Creator... So if He says sleep/death is the way it is.. then it is... after all, He knows what He is talking about. I believe Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I admit that I am perplexed by the great number of heresies in your teaching. Where did you learn them?

 

[visionary]

Is your theology committed to soul sleep too?

I agree with Yeshua... sleep means death.

Soul sleep indicates that the soul exists after death. I can not find any scriptures that indicate that. What I do find is that the spirit returns to God who gave it, and the body returns to dust. Since the beginning, when God created us, He took dirt and molded it and then breathed the breath of God into it and it "became a living soul". I have never heard of a dead soul nor can I find it in scripture... So No I do not believe in soul sleep..

Yeshua called Lazarus "forth" not down or up from either heaven or hell.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree with Yeshua... sleep means death.

Soul sleep indicates that the soul exists after death. I can not find any scriptures that indicate that. What I do find is that the spirit returns to God who gave it, and the body returns to dust. Since the beginning, when God created us, He took dirt and molded it and then breathed the breath of God into it and it "became a living soul". I have never heard of a dead soul nor can I find it in scripture... So No I do not believe in soul sleep..

Yeshua called Lazarus "forth" not down or up from either heaven or hell.

Have you been influenced by the teachings of Jehovah's witnesses - they teach the cessation of the soul until Jehovah remembers and re-creates it in the resurrection. For them when the Lord Jesus Christ died he ceased to exist until Jehovah remembered him and resurrected him in a spirit body, do you have a similar view of the Lord's death and resurrection?

 

[visionary]

Have you been influenced by the teachings of Jehovah's witnesses - they teach the cessation of the soul until Jehovah remembers and re-creates it in the resurrection. For them when the Lord Jesus Christ died he ceased to exist until Jehovah remembered him and resurrected him in a spirit body, do you have a similar view of the Lord's death and resurrection?

Absolutely not!!!!

 

[visionary]

I admit that I am perplexed by the great number of heresies in your teaching. Where did you learn them?

They are scripture... and the biblical people have believed this, Yeshua preached it and I believe the sciripture and Yeshua.
It is heresy to believe otherwise.

 

[MoreCoffee]

They are scripture... and the biblical people have believed this, Yeshua preached it and I believe the sciripture and Yeshua.
It is heresy to believe otherwise.

This "yeshua" you mention and the "scripture" you claim as authority cannot be Jesus Christ and the holy scriptures that Christians rely upon.

 

[visionary]

This "yeshua" you mention and the "scripture" you claim as authority cannot be Jesus Christ and the holy scriptures that Christians rely upon.

You might be right... If what you say is true, then Jesus Christ is not a Jew.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You might be right... If what you say is true, then Jesus Christ is not a Jew.

Jesus Christ is most certainly not a rabbinic Jew because rabbinic Judaism did not come into existence until after the revolt of Bar Kokhba which came to a sad and deadly end in 135 AD. Of course the Lord Jesus Christ is and was descended from Israel since Blessed Mary his mother was an Israelite and his Father is God. His adopted father (step father if you prefer the term) was also an Israelite who was descended from the family of David.

 

[visionary]

Jesus Christ is most certainly not a rabbinic Jew because rabbinic Judaism did not come into existence until after the revolt of Bar Kokhba which came to a sad and deadly end in 135 AD. Of course the Lord Jesus Christ is and was descended from Israel since Blessed Mary his mother was an Israelite and his Father is God. His adopted father (step father if you prefer the term) was also an Israelite who was descended from the family of David.

I never mentioned rabbinic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I never mentioned rabbinic.

In your posts the word "Jew" is equivocated with the meanings "a follower of Rabbinic Judaism" and "a Jew as Jews existed in the first century when the Lord Jesus Christ was alive" but more often you appear to mean a follower of Rabbinic Judaism. That is why you say that Jews of today keep the feasts when no Jew of Jesus day would regard what today's Jews do as keeping any of the feasts, but that is for different threads and I mention it only as an explanation of hos you use the term "Jew" with equivocation. You yourself appear to draw your religious practises from Rabbinic Judaism in large measure.

 

[visionary]

In your posts the word "Jew" is equivocated with the meanings "a follower of Rabbinic Judaism" and "a Jew as Jews existed in the first century when the Lord Jesus Christ was alive" but more often you appear to mean a follower of Rabbinic Judaism. That is why you say that Jews of today keep the feasts when no Jew of Jesus day would regard what today's Jews do as keeping any of the feasts, but that is for different threads and I mention it only as an explanation of hos you use the term "Jew" with equivocation. You yourself appear to draw your religious practices from Rabbinic Judaism in large measure.

Not in my books... not a follower of Rabbinic

 

[Full O Beans]

Could we consider "sleep" Yeshua's term for death?

John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I would say the terms "sleep/slept" and "death/died/dies" are interchangeable in this context.

Yes, physical death.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, physical death.

exactly

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not in my books... not a follower of Rabbinic

Excellent, then you're not a religious Jew following Judaism as it exists today.