Poor Theology - God won't let you be deceived

[tango]

There are some teachers out there who teach that testing isn't necessary, that we can pretty much stray into the spiritual realms and not worry about being deceived.

One particular teacher's material talks of praying for dreams and visions and explicitly states "Finally when the visions begin, trust they are from God and receive them like a child" and "If we ask the Lord for vision to see in the seer realm, we can be confident that the power of God to keep us safe is stronger than the power of the enemy to deceive us". Like so much bad theology this sounds reasonable on the face of it - after all isn't God's power to protect us stronger than the devil's power to harm us?

But let's take a step back from the seductive theology and look at what Scripture has to say.

Paul writes "Test all things, hold fast what is good" (1Th 5:21)
John writes "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1Jn 4:1)

Jesus himself also warned of false christs and false prophets and told us how to spot them.

In Matt 7 he warns of them and goes as far as to say some people who thought they were prophesying in his name would get a very nasty surprise come judgment day.
In Matt 24 he warns how false prophets will rise up and "will deceive many" (24:11). He then goes on to warn they they will show great signs wonders "to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (24:24)

Some would use the assurance Jesus also spoke that nobody shall "snatch (us) out of his hand or out of God's hand" (John 10:28-29). But here we're not talking about anyone being snatched, we're talking about people voluntarily choosing to follow false prophets and false teachers. God gave us the calling to test, Jesus warned of the presence of false prophets and told us how to spot them, the message to test was reiterated by both Paul and John, so if we choose to ignore the Scriptural calling to test why should we expect God to suddenly step in and override our free will? He gave Adam and Eve the freedom to choose to disobey him then and he gives us the freedom to choose to disobey him now.

 

[Lamb]

The charisma of the false teachers is overwhelming and appeals to the sinful nature within people.

The dream comment above makes me wonder if God ever told us to trust in our dreams! I don't recall reading about that in scripture.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, we are to test the spirits but also dreams and visions are but another way that God can communicate with us. I wouldnt just arbitrarily throw out the idea of dreams and visions but I would also say to test them and know they are from God.

 

[tango]

Yes, we are to test the spirits but also dreams and visions are but another way that God can communicate with us. I wouldnt just arbitrarily throw out the idea of dreams and visions but I would also say to test them and know they are from God.

I wouldn't throw out dreams and visions, it's just important to test them to make sure they are the result of God speaking and not the result of us eating too much cheese before going to bed.

The idea to assume that the dream you had last night is from God just because you asked God for a dream is hugely dangerous - not only does it assume God is little more than a cosmic vending machine that does what we demand but it also leaves us wide open to deception if we do end up with something that isn't actually from God.

There's plenty of Scriptural support for God speaking through dreams and visions and also plenty of Scriptural calling to test such things to make sure they actually are from God.

 

[onlyme]

The Holy Spirit is the One Who gives light and understanding of the written Word and prayerful dependence on Him is vitally important; it is good to remember that He never contradicts the written Word, and He works to glorify Christ.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, He will lead you into all truth

 

[MoreCoffee]

There are some teachers out there who teach that testing isn't necessary, that we can pretty much stray into the spiritual realms and not worry about being deceived.

One particular teacher's material talks of praying for dreams and visions and explicitly states "Finally when the visions begin, trust they are from God and receive them like a child" and "If we ask the Lord for vision to see in the seer realm, we can be confident that the power of God to keep us safe is stronger than the power of the enemy to deceive us". Like so much bad theology this sounds reasonable on the face of it - after all isn't God's power to protect us stronger than the devil's power to harm us?

But let's take a step back from the seductive theology and look at what Scripture has to say.

Paul writes "Test all things, hold fast what is good" (1Th 5:21)
John writes "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1Jn 4:1)

Jesus himself also warned of false christs and false prophets and told us how to spot them.

In Matt 7 he warns of them and goes as far as to say some people who thought they were prophesying in his name would get a very nasty surprise come judgment day.
In Matt 24 he warns how false prophets will rise up and "will deceive many" (24:11). He then goes on to warn they they will show great signs wonders "to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (24:24)

Some would use the assurance Jesus also spoke that nobody shall "snatch (us) out of his hand or out of God's hand" (John 10:28-29). But here we're not talking about anyone being snatched, we're talking about people voluntarily choosing to follow false prophets and false teachers. God gave us the calling to test, Jesus warned of the presence of false prophets and told us how to spot them, the message to test was reiterated by both Paul and John, so if we choose to ignore the Scriptural calling to test why should we expect God to suddenly step in and override our free will? He gave Adam and Eve the freedom to choose to disobey him then and he gives us the freedom to choose to disobey him now.

If nobody can be deceived because God will not let them be deceived if they are among the faithful then why are there so many different systems of theology and so many denominations? Surely some of them are in error about some of the points in their systems of theology. Surely ... and if this is so then the theory that God protects the faithful from believing error is wrong.

 

[tango]

If nobody can be deceived because God will not let them be deceived if they are among the faithful then why are there so many different systems of theology and so many denominations? Surely some of them are in error about some of the points in their systems of theology. Surely ... and if this is so then the theory that God protects the faithful from believing error is wrong.

A lot of denominational differences seem to be as much down to tradition than core theology, but certainly the only way you'd be able to claim that "God won't let you be deceived" works in the face of so many denominations is to either argue that God will let you be deceived on trivial matters or to argue that only your denomination are the faithful who will be protected.

That latter approach starts to fail because if you're overtly defying the Scriptural call to test and to "take heed, that no one deceives you" then it's a bit much to expect God to watch you ignore what he told you to do but then step in and protect you from the consequences of it.

 

[onlyme]

1 Thess. 5.21 is very relevant; we do need to prove all things in the light of God's Word.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, given the last two posts it seems that we're agreed that God does not protect the faithful from being deceived. But then what does one do with the end of saint Matthew's gospel? And this statement in saint John's gospel...

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, [these] shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. (John 16:12-13 ASV-1901)
​

If the gates of hell will not overcome the church and if the Lord Jesus Christ is with the church always even to the end of the ages and if the holy Spirit will guide the church into all truth how can there be so many 'truths' held in opposition one to another by so many denominations?

 

[tango]

Well, given the last two posts it seems that we're agreed that God does not protect the faithful from being deceived.

This might be a semantic nitpick but I think it's worth differentiating between "God does not protect" in the sense of a God who simply shrugs and hopes we can figure out all the tricks and traps, and "God does not protect" in the sense of a God who does not actively step in and overrule us if we swallow a lie but who has given us what we need to differentiate the truth from lies.

But then what does one do with the end of saint Matthew's gospel? And this statement in saint John's gospel...[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, [these] shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. (John 16:12-13 ASV-1901)
​

If the gates of hell will not overcome the church and if the Lord Jesus Christ is with the church always even to the end of the ages and if the holy Spirit will guide the church into all truth how can there be so many 'truths' held in opposition one to another by so many denominations?

I think some things where churches differ are trivial, and where things are not trivial I'd suggest that sometimes it's easier to stick with what we've always done than actually listen to the Holy Spirit and get it right.