Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Alithis]

I was thinking the same thing, that they have a weak God instead of one who loves us so much that He died for us and our sins are forgiven. I'm not saying they have a different God, but they've reduced Him.

how is christ reduced by declaring repentance or obedience ?

i testify that he is all the more glorified by the power of hid holy Spirit at work in us ..if it be that we have received his holy Spirit .
i have known his healing

i have known his deliverance

i have been utterly set free from addictive Sins by the truth . things i could not seem to stop doing ..utterly ceased in my life once i received the truth of being set free.
so fre i simply DO NOT do those sins any more at all not ever . FREE means FREE
and the power of the truth of the Lord JEsus is ever increasing in my life and he is ,by his Holy Spiirt being ever more glorified to me and in me .
and all this becaseu i heard and beleived the gospel and some time later stopped listening to the "you dont have to do anything crowd.." and went back to obeying what the lord Jesus tells us to do ... it is when we obey that we move into the promises he has given us .

it is by unbelief that disobedience comes . the israelites did not obey god and enter into the promised land becaseu they Did not believe he could aid them in the task . they sat in the wilderness and never go to see his promises because they did not GO and DO what he had instructed them .

we can know the truth but we must then ACT on it -if any make god weak in their estimation ,it is those that refuse to obey because they dont think God is strong enough to deliver on his word . they are the ones who sit in the wilderness and perish there and never get to see the fruition of the promises of God .

what use is it if we "know about " all the things god has promised .. ? it is of no use to us until we obtain that which he has promised and we do so by obedience -not inaction .

 

[Lamb]

It's Christ's obedience that has saved you. Not yours. God is the one who turns you. It's all God's work but yet you keep wanting to take the credit saying YOU did this and you still need to do that. Let God be God and realize HE saves you!

 

[psalms 91]

He alone saves I agree, uiit is what comes after salvation that we play a part in either by our obedience or our disobedience we work out our salvation with fear and trembling as the word says to

 

[MoreCoffee]

He alone saves I agree, it is what comes after salvation that we play a part in either by our obedience or our disobedience we work out our salvation with fear and trembling as the word says to

The holy scriptures urge repentance on the unbelieving and doesn't repentance involve eschewing one's sins, turning from them, and turning to God in obedience? Is that not a human action? Yes it is grace that enables it but it is still a human act.

 

[psalms 91]

Yup and yet we still all sin

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yup and yet we still all sin

Theology that splits what God did in Christ and what God does in Christ's body (the church) is misleading. People do the works of God. "What must I do to do the works of God?" asked some disciples and the Lord replied "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (John 6:29) No matter how hard a theologian struggles to make everything to do with eternal life exclude the actions of the faithful such a theologian will always fail. Even one's belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is a work. It is a work which God commands and which he enables and which he performs through human beings. Saint Paul stated it this way: "'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.'" (Acts 17:28) and the Lord Jesus Christ explains saying: "So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'" (Luke 17:10). If it offends the theology of some to admit that God works in and through his people then nothing can be done to relieve it except to urge them to reassess their theology and accept the teaching of the holy scriptures because it is the teaching of Christ.

 

[psalms 91]

Theology that splits what God did in Christ and what God does in Christ's body (the church) is misleading. People do the works of God. "What must I do to do the works of God?" asked some disciples and the Lord replied "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (John 6:29) No matter how hard a theologian struggles to make everything to do with eternal life exclude the actions of the faithful such a theologian will always fail. Even one's belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is a work. It is a work which God commands and which he enables and which he performs through human beings. Saint Paul stated it this way: "'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.'" (Acts 17:28) and the Lord Jesus Christ explains saying: "So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'" (Luke 17:10). If it offends the theology of some to admit that God works in and through his people then nothing can be done to relieve it except to urge them to reassess their theology and accept the teaching of the holy scriptures because it is the teaching of Christ.

Yup as I said it should be viewed in its entirety not split into little portions, good way to get wrong theology

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yup as I said it should be viewed in its entirety not split into little portions, good way to get wrong theology

Yes, the splitting things apart that God has joined together approach leads to lots of bad theology and bad morals too.

 

[Josiah]

how is christ reduced by declaring repentance or obedience ?

If justification (narrow) results from YOU doing x,y,z then justification is the result of what YOU do - and thus, YOU are the Savior (in this sense), and Jesus is not. You just rendered Jesus a joke. His life, death and resurrection a joke. IMO, yes, that reduces Christ.

i testify that he is all the more glorified by the power of hid holy Spirit at work in us ..if it be that we have received his holy Spirit .

Yup, some modern American "Evangelicals" have rejected Protestantism and returned to Rome, siding with Rome in its excommunication of Luther and Calvin. It's just that these modern American "Evangelicals" tend to credit the Holy Spirit for the help they got to save themselves whereas Catholics are apt to credit Christ for that - but a tiny point in an otherwise identical soteriology. "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but we gotta get ourselves through it by what we do - with the empowering of God." The same synergistic, semi-Pelagian modification of the Jewish/Muslim/Hindu view that we save ourselves with divine help.


Again, there are two options: looking to the Cross or looking in the mirror..... looking to Jesus as the Savior or self as the Savior. Luther was excommunicated (and the tradition Protestants here at CH are being repudiated) for looking to the Cross, for affirming that Jesus is the Savior (in this sense) and thus I'm not. And yes, I'm well aware that recently, a segment of Protestants has gone full circle on this and wholly returned to Rome, repudiating the foundational/definitive basis of Protestantism.

]not split into little portions, good way to get wrong theology

The best way to get wrong theology (and abandon the central point of Christianity) is to take biblical teachings .... water them down with oceans of water..... mix in LOTS and LOTS of egoism...... then blend them, confuse them, entangle them, mix it all up, until it is an unrecognizable MESS. That's what the individual RC Denomination (and the LDS one) have done: confusing law and Gospel, self and Christ, sanctification with justification until they pour out a Christless, Crossless, Bloodless, merciless religion more in common with Judaism and Islam on this point than Christianity, where SELF is the ultimate savior of self. And yes, I am aware that in very modern American "Evangelicalism" there are those who have repudiated Protestantism and have (on this point at least) fully returned to Rome, agreeing that we are to look in the mirror at Self for justification..... that Jesus perhaps HELPS us (although these Evangelicals are more apt to not even credit Jesus with that as the Catholics do), that perhaps Jesus makes justification POSSIBLE... but what justifiies is ultimately what SELF does and thus SELF is the Savior (self patting self on back). And yes, those are going to repudiate the very, very Protestant view of Soli DEO Gloria that the Reformation stressed, they will repudiate the very core, the very foundation, the very definining doctrine of Protestantism: Sola GRATIA - Solus CHRISTUS - Sola Fide, repudiating that to glorify and credit SELF.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[psalms 91]

What really reduces Him is to say I can do anything and it is ok, it is not and universal salvation can lead to that, it is a lie. Narrow is the way and we play a part in whether we get to go to heaven. Do you really think that God will allow rebellion into heaven or any other sin?

 

[Josiah]

What really reduces Him is to say I can do anything and it is ok

Bill -

NO ONE has said that... but that would reduce Him as Lord, perhaps (if this thread were about sanctification). What reduces Him as Savior is to even imply that what WE do is what ultimately is the cause of justification, what makes for justification (the sole and exclusive and singular issue of this thread).

AGAIN, yet again Bill, no one - no one whatsoever - disagrees or has ever disagreed that the Law remains and that the Law applies (yes, we MUST be absolutely perfect even as God is.... we MUST be absolutely loving to ALL just as Christ on the Cross and to that extent, we MUST be absolutely HOLY even as God Himself is holy..... etc., etc. etc.) NO ONE disagrees with that. And that's not at all the issue of this thread.

Bill, This thread is about justification (narrow) - BECOMING a Christian, ESTABLISHING that relationship between God and us, it's about WHO is the Savior (in the sense of justification). Again, Bill. Yet again, this thread is not about what CHRISTIANS should now do, it's about WHO establishes us as CHRISTIANS to begin with. Luther and Calvin taught that Jesus is the Savior. Jesus (alone)..... IS (not is not)..... THE (the one and only).... SAVIOR (in this sense of justification). They said the Gospel applies (not that the Law disappears). Bill, ALL agreed that CHRISTIANS are to be absolutely, totally PERFECT and HOLY even as God Himself is holy. ALL agreed that CHRISTIANS are to love ALL perfectly and completely - always. ALL agreed that CHRISTIANS are to love the Lord with ALL their heart, ALL their mind, ALL their soul - perfectly, absolutely and always. CHRISTIANS are to do that. NO ONE, Bill..... no one here is debating that (although those who eliminate the Gospel tend to water down the law to be nothing more than "try" - see the video in the opening post). And that's not the issue of this thread. Luther.... Calvin.... the RC Denomination.... they all completely agreed on the Law, on that. But Bill, this thread is not about that. It's about the Gospel, about BECOMING a Christian, about justification and salvation - not discipleship, not sanctification, not the Law. Bill.... Do you understand that?

Bill.... again..... what the RC Denomination excommunicated Luther for was NOT the complete agreement of everyone on the Law, on sanctification (what you want to divert this thread into in order to abandon Christ, the Gospel, the Cross), it excommunicated Luther for an entirely DIFFERENT issue, for his teachings on justification, for teaching that Jesus is the Savior, not oneself. That what is effectual for justification is JESUS, not self. That what is effectual in justification (narrow) is the Cross, not whatever we see in the mirror, God's MERCY rather than OUR merit. That what JESUS did is what is to be trusted, not what we do. He got excommunicated for that. The RC Denomination split itself over that. Catholics STILL get every upset over this Protestant teaching (that yes, some modern American Evangelicals also repudiate) that JESUS is THE Savior - not self, thus what matters in this regard is what JESUS did not self.




- Josiah




.

 

[psalms 91]

sigh, ok kep it narrow and get sidetracked friom the true message. I agree we can do nothing for salvation it is Jesus who does that. We dont disagree on that it is the rest that you want to eliminate that is the problem, it should be taken all together not seperated

 

[Josiah]

sigh, ok kep it narrow and get sidetracked friom the true message. I agree we can do nothing for salvation it is Jesus who does that. We dont disagree on that it is the rest that you want to eliminate that is the problem, it should be taken all together not seperated

Those who insist on confusing the two separate issues thereby eliminate Jesus as the Savior and make SELF the effectual savior. Thus, the importance.

I respectfully disagree that "Jesus is the Savior" is a false message. But I agree that it's not the ONLY message, just one that should not be stripped and rendered irrelevant. There are, perhaps, thousands upon thousands of other truths in Christianity (through perhaps no other so central than Jesus IS THE Savior).... this thread however happens to be about justification (narrow), not every truth there is.


Thanks, Bill



- Josiah




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[TurtleHare]

What did Jesus accomplish at the cross?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What did Jesus accomplish at the cross?

What does holy scripture says was accomplished?

 

[Josiah]

IMO...

What is FASCINATING is to watch how many Catholics, Mormons (and sadly SOME modern American "Evangelicals") will do anything they can to avoid (or at least muddy up and diminish) the central point of Christianity: Jesus is the Savior. Although rarely will they flatly deny that (they MAY even actually say it!) BUT ever-so-quickly, with great passion, distance themselves from it, trying (HARD!) to get the focus OFF Christ, OFF the Cross, OFF the Blood, OFF of mercy... and on self. WE must do this..... WE gotta do that..... WE contribute this..... WE complete that..... WE earn this.... WE merit that..... so much so that Christ is made as small as possible (at times, TOTALLY neglected - not even so much as even mentioned! Or the Cross or the Blood or mercy).... SELF made as large as possible. LOTS of me, me, me, me..... I, I, I, I......

True - perhaps correct things will be brought in (although watered down so much as to not always recognized as such) and MIXED IN, blended, entangled with this central truth so as to confuse.... and to assist in making SELF the actual Savior, assist in making the Christ, the Cross, the Blood, the Lamb, God's MERCY as irrelevant and small as possible. Anything to detract from Christ.

And yes - I know well - informed, articulate Catholics (especially Catholic apologists when addressing Protestants) WILL side with Judaism and Islam and some forms of Hinduism to stress that we can't save ourselves by ourselves, by sole virtue of our OWN natural abilities. No, they are quick and frequent to say, we need HELP (Catholics and Mormons credit Christ especially for this help, some "Evangelicals" tend to credit the Holy Spirit for this help, Jews and Muslims simply credit "God")..... but Jesus the HELPER is not the same as Jesus the SAVIOR and this important distinction permits them to then put SELF in the spot of Savior (albeit self got HELP). Our Catholic teachers also diminished Christ by simply making him one who made salvation POSSIBLE without actually being a Savior.... the common teaching being "Christ opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it" so that the one who actually got us into heaven is ME (oh what a good boy am I.... how pleased God is with ME).

It amazes me (and even more saddens me) how this central point of Christianity..... this the keystone of the Gospel..... this faith that JESUS is the Savior (thus not me) .... this very thing that ALL Christians should be clearest and boldest about..... this very thing ALL Christians should affirm with ALL Christians..... is the very doctrine where Catholics and Mormons are weakest on, even run from. The RCC excommunicated Luther over his affirmation of Jesus as the Savior (in this sense of justification, narrow) rather than self.... this belief that for justification narrow, we are called to look at the Cross rather than in the mirror. It excommunicated Luther for THAT.... it split itself over THAT.... THAT is the doctrine in classical/Reformational Protestantism that seems to get Catholics the most upset.

Just notice the shirting around, the dancing, the manuvering to avoid the bold, simple, definitive affirmation: Jesus is the Savior (and thus I'm not). It is sad. It is amazing.



Pax


- Josiah




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[Alithis]

It's Christ's obedience that has saved you. Not yours. God is the one who turns you. It's all God's work but yet you keep wanting to take the credit saying YOU did this and you still need to do that. Let God be God and realize HE saves you!

it is what chrsit has done that placed us back on the ark ..No one is trying to taje credit for what he has done - it is obedience that will keep you there and stop you from jumping off it again. ,we are not saved to then be children of disobedience . the disobedient and the rebellious do not inherit the kingdom of god ,nor the fruitless . salvation is offered by grace ,it is grasped by faith ..by these we are put back on the right path .. but deviate from that path and we will perish . you cant sit out the rest of your life saying i was saved on such and such a date and now i can cruise and do whatever i will -the lord says of these types .".you "wicked" servant " even what you have will be taken from you and given to another ..
except we take up out cross and die to ourselves in order to do his will.. that means to obey him .. we cannot be his deciples - HIS words not mine ,take it up wit him if you disagree .
if we are not fruitful we are cut off as a branch and fruitfulness comes via obedience . cease to be obedience and you will bring forth the fruit of disobedience .. you can't have it both ways -we cannot have both sin and righteousness and think we can enjoy both .without repentance there is no forgivness . and the unforgiven do not enter the kingdom of God .
many are called few are chosen -so who is chosen .. the ones that are obedient to the call ..not the rebellious .

 

[TurtleHare]

What does holy scripture says was accomplished?

Do you know? Josiah nails it and it is frightening how many, when talking about Jesus as Savior really only talk about themselves and little is said about Jesus.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you know? Josiah nails it and it is frightening how many, when talking about Jesus as Savior really only talk about themselves and little is said about Jesus.

Seems to me that Josiah's posts talk far more about what he thinks "others" do and especially what he alleges Catholics believe and do than what Jesus does. You add your imprimatur to his comments so it seems that you like that approach. That approach is not good.

 

[TurtleHare]

Let's talk about Jesus and you go first and explain your version of what you believe Jesus did at the cross but here is the clincher, don't talk about yourself at all. Go