Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[psalms 91]

No one needs to "interchange the meanings" the Catholic Church truly is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic as the creed says that she is.

If so then what about all the other denoms? What are they? Now wqe are starting to see the true meaning that catholics apply to protestants

 

[MoreCoffee]

If so then what about all the other denoms? What are they? Now we are starting to see the true meaning that catholics apply to protestants

All who are in union with Christ are Catholics in communion with the Catholic Church insofar as they share the Catholic faith in varying degrees of completeness.

 

[psalms 91]

Another duck and dodge, no denom that I know of would say they are part of the catholic church unless we are going back to the catholic meaning that it is all inclusive which it most certainly is not in the church

 

[MoreCoffee]

Another duck and dodge, no denomination that I know of would say they are part of the catholic church unless we are going back to the catholic meaning that it is all inclusive which it most certainly is not in the church

I cannot accommodate your desire to feel persecuted and hated. I neither hate nor have any desire to persecute fellow Christians. Yet you want to cast yourselves as victims of some imaginary verbal and theological persecution emanating from the Catholic Church. It is rather odd to see you doing this. But I suppose if it makes you feel as if you're more christian because you are under an imaginary verbal/theological persecution from those who call you Christian brethren then okay. No one can stop you.

 

[psalms 91]

I cannot accommodate your desire to feel persecuted and hated. I neither hate nor have any desire to persecute fellow Christians. Yet you want to cast yourselves as victims of some imaginary verbal and theological persecution emanating from the Catholic Church. It is rather odd to see you doing this. But I suppose if it makes you feel as if you're more christian because you are under an imaginary verbal/theological persecution from those who call you Christian brethren then okay. No one can stop you.

It is not imaginary by any means. Explain that statement to the best of your understanding

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is not imaginary by any means. Explain that statement to the best of your understanding

In brief at in personal terms you are by brother in Christ and you are in communion with me on many matters where our beliefs coincide.

 

[psalms 91]

ok that is easy enough to accept and I accept you as a brother. I fear that many in your church would not view itthat way

 

[Josiah]

No. That specific individual denomination is not "holy" (no denomination CAN be "holy"), sure it's 'one' but only with it itself alone (exclusively, solely, uniquely, only) - "one" with ITSELF in no way other than the LDS is "one" with ITSELF but hardly "one" and the same as all 2.2 billion Christian PEOPLE (not mentioning the billions of Christians who are now in heaven), and surely that individual denomination is not "catholic" since even by it's own WILD claims of self for self, about half of Christians are not docilic, official, formal members of any of its own and operated parishes (and even then, the members aren't the demonination, they are at most docilic, obedient, submissive MEMBERS of it).


The Catholic Church is a denomination. Just as thousands of other denominations. You can argue that it's really old (you may claim the OLDEST - a point I'll wave since it's entirely, completely irrelevant, although I believe the oldest denomination is likely the Syrian Orthodox Church but who cares?) ... and it certainly is the largest (a point no one argues against) but again, who cares? It couldn't matter less. But it is what it is: the geopolitical, legal, economic institutional entity of millions of owned and operated parishes.


Again, "Catholic" ( a legal, proper NOUN, moniker of a denomination under which the denomination is incorporated in most legal jurisdictions) refers to a denomination. The word "catholic" (an adjective in common use in ancient times) means whole or universal or all-embracing and refers typically to PEOPLE - not to individual, singular, unique geopolitical, legal, economic institutional entities. Yes, the creed is right: the church is US, the church is one, is holy, is catholic, is the communion of saints. The church is CHRISTIANS. Of course, your denomination is SO, SO completely obsessed with it itself uniquely, with the POWER QUEST that it itself has, with its all-embracing passion to be Lord over all and to lord it over all as the gentiles do, that it just sees it self everywhere - the the clouds, in its dreams, and most of all as it looks at itself in a pool of water.


The ancient creed says "catholic." LITTLE "c." Adjective. NOT "Catholic" (Proper noun, legal moniker). It's the enormous, jupiter-sized, power-hungry EGO of the individual, singular RC Denomination that has the gull to delete the word of the creed (if not literally, than by reintepretation) to eliminate the adjective "catholic" and replace it with a noun, a proper noun, a key part of the legal moniker of it itself individually, "Catholic."




.

All who are in union with Christ are Catholics in communion with the Catholic Church insofar as they share the Catholic faith in varying degrees of completeness.

How insulting.


You insisting that all the people here at CH who are not currently docilic official formal members of a parish that is owned and operated by the singular, individual RC Denomination are not in union with Christ... you accusation is disgusting, insulting and flaming.

And I believe absolutely wrong (and ironic coming from one on a current binge of claiming how non-RCC'ers insists that Catholics aren't fully Christians - we witness the EXACT OPPOSITE is the case, it's YOU rejecting us, not the other way around).


Note, I've NEVER claimed that you - because you are a docilic, submissive, official member of some RCC owned and operated parish - is ERGO not a Christian, not in union with Christ. Yet you claim I insist you aren't a Christian. You seem especially insulted and offended by that. But here you claim that I'm not in union in Christ because I'm not an official, registered, docilic, submissive member of some RCC owned/operated parish. Ah..... YOU are the one being insulting, divisive.


How insulting.




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

ok that is easy enough to accept and I accept you as a brother. I fear that many in your church would not view it that way

All the people that I know in my parish would say it that way or in a similar way. In fact many Catholics who I know are astonished when people from local protestant denominations (Baptist, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, and Seventh Day Adventist) express negative views of the Catholic Church and/or suggest that my Catholic friends are deceived dupes of a wicked non-christian church. And make no mistake some from the denominations I've mentioned say precisely that sort of thing. If you read the posts here in CH you'll see several that have said that kind of thing about me.

 

[psalms 91]

All the people that I know in my parish would say it that way or in a similar way. In fact many Catholics who I know are astonished when people from local protestant denominations (Baptist, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, and Seventh Day Adventist) express negative views of the Catholic Church and/or suggest that my Catholic friends are deceived dupes of a wicked non-christian church. And make no mistake some from the denominations I've mentioned say precisely that sort of thing. If you read the posts here in CH you'll see several that has said that kind of thing about me.

I agree and lets face it, some of the writings, even some you have referenced sort of give that impression that we are viewed as less. You know my story and why I feel that way and as much as you explain communion and your different view of it it still doesnt explain why a christian would be denied that, you wouldnt be in my chruch or any other that I know of

 

[Josiah]

All who are in union with Christ are Catholics in communion with the Catholic Church insofar as they share the Catholic faith in varying degrees of completeness.

How insulting.


You insisting that all the people here at CH who are not currently docilic official formal members of a parish that is owned and operated by the singular, individual RC Denomination are not in union with Christ... you accusation is disgusting, insulting and flaming.

And I believe absolutely wrong (and ironic coming from one on a current binge of claiming how non-RCC'ers insists that Catholics aren't fully Christians - we witness the EXACT OPPOSITE is the case, it's YOU rejecting us, not the other way around).


Note, I've NEVER claimed that you - because you are a docilic, submissive, official member of some RCC owned and operated parish - is ERGO not a Christian, not in union with Christ. Yet you claim I insist you aren't a Christian. You seem especially insulted and offended by that. But here you claim that I'm not in union in Christ because I'm not an official, registered, docilic, submissive member of some RCC owned/operated parish. Ah..... YOU are the one being insulting, divisive.


How insulting.


.

I cannot accommodate your desire to feel persecuted and hated.

YOU are the one on this current binge that everybody's alwaz pic'n on pur Catholics.....
YOU are the one on this current binge that non-RCC members insists that RCC members are not Christians (fully, anyway).


BUT what we witness is the EXACT OPPOSITE.
It's YOU boldly insisting that non-RCC'ers are not in union with Christ.


You like to "say" that YOU feel non-RCC members are "brothers" but then you let it slip.... actually, you agree with the RC Denomination that we are SEPARATED brothers who are NOT in union with Christ.




Now, since I reject the premise that we justify ourselves by virtue of officially registering with a parish that is owned and operated by a specific, singular, individual denomination (salvation by joining a denomination), I view your accusations (however ironic) to be a hijack. I invite a return to the issue of the thread.





Thank you.


- Josiah


.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree and lets face it, some of the writings, even some you have referenced sort of give that impression that we are viewed as less. You know my story and why I feel that way and as much as you explain communion and your different view of it it still doesn't explain why a christian would be denied that, you wouldn't be in my church or any other that I know of

Receiving holy communion in a Catholic Church is not exactly the communion I was referring to in my post. I was thinking of fellowship as Christian brethren rather than receiving the host and precious blood in the rite of holy communion during a mass. And why would you want to receive the host and precious blood in a mass? If I am not mistaken you do not believe that the host and the precious blood are each individually the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Besides we use fermented grape juice - real wine with alcohol in it from the fermentation - and many of the Pentecostal meetings I've been to use grape juice that is not fermented so would that present a problem for some from your meeting if they visited and received holy communion?

 

[Alithis]

YOU are the one on this current binge that everybody's alwaz pic'n on pur Catholics.....
YOU are the one on this current binge that non-RCC members insists that RCC members are not Christians (fully, anyway).


BUT what we witness is the EXACT OPPOSITE.
It's YOU boldly insisting that non-RCC'ers are not in union with Christ.


You like to "say" that YOU feel non-RCC members are "brothers" but then you let it slip.... actually, you agree with the RC Denomination that we are SEPARATED brothers who are NOT in union with Christ.




Now, since I reject the premise that we justify ourselves by virtue of officially registering with a parish that is owned and operated by a specific, singular, individual denomination (salvation by joining a denomination), I view your accusations (however ironic) to be a hijack. I invite a return to the issue of the thread.





Thank you.


- Josiah


.

to be honest ..im not insulted by it at all ..im more complimented. as i hold the view that all who bow to rome's teachings ad refuse to repent of practices that are blatantly opposed to the word of god and thus are works of iniquity are in an unrepenatnt state of sin both in what they do themselves And in thier refusal to condemn those who do it even if they themselves do not practice such things -thus to be excluded from rome's version of salvation by belonging to rome ,includes me in the lords version of being born again into the resurrection of the lord Jesus as proven to me by the baptism of the holy ghost .

 

[psalms 91]

Receiving holy communion in a Catholic Church is not exactly the communion I was referring to in my post. I was thinking of fellowship as Christian brethren rather than receiving the host and precious blood in the rite of holy communion during a mass. And why would you want to receive the host and precious blood in a mass? If I am not mistaken you do not believe that the host and the precious blood are each individually the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Besides we use fermented grape juice - real wine with alcohol in it from the fermentation - and many of the Pentecostal meetings I've been to use grape juice that is not fermented so would that present a problem for some from your meeting if they visited and received holy communion?

I doubt that it would present a problem and yes grape juice is commonly used as is wine in some

 

[MoreCoffee]

I doubt that it would present a problem and yes grape juice is commonly used as is wine in some

We also use a common cup. Many from Pentecostal meetings are used to individual sealed plastic tiny cups so would the prospect of using a common cup shared with all the people who went to receive communion before you be a daunting prospect?

 

[Lamb]

We also use a common cup. Many from Pentecostal meetings are used to individual sealed plastic tiny cups so would the prospect of using a common cup shared with all the people who went to receive communion before you be a daunting prospect?

I use the common cup but that is because I like to reflect on the words that Jesus spoke about the "cup", not a plastic jigger

 

[MoreCoffee]

I use the common cup but that is because I like to reflect on the words that Jesus spoke about the "cup", not a plastic jigger

I don't get why people use the plastic thingies but I imagine it will be alleged to be good for infection control.

 

[psalms 91]

Which it is but the one church I go to uses one cup and you dip the bread in

 

[MoreCoffee]

Which it is but the one church I go to uses one cup and you dip the bread in

Yes, "intinction" it is called.

 

[Josiah]

A reminder of the topic....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoRx5eB7h0A



View this 4 minute video, directed specifically to the LDS but equally applying to all who think justification (narrow) is up to us (in whole or in part)


The LDS view (do your BEST and God will then overlook the rest) is actually the Muslim view, but we often see it even more clearly and boldly among Christians. And the Jewish view of "God makes justification POSSIBLE but it's up to YOU do actually achieve it" (what I was taught in my Catholic years) is just a "spin" on the same basic premise: justification is by what WE do, NOT Christ.


Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it?





Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





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