Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[psalms 91]

Imitators of Him. It is His Faith. You make it sound like the faith of the Bible is unacceptable. IT is a what God gave on Mount Sinai. It is what Yeshua followed His whole life, justifying His purity, His Life, His Way, His Truth. If you can not see Yeshua in the old testament then how can you justify Him in the new testament?

I have reached the point I dont care if they ever see it for they reject allof it and think they are right. I will let them be right in their own eyes and let God sort it out when they meet Him. I would like to be standing there when they say you didnt really mean that for anyone but the Jews right? What a surprise they will get especially when they will be forced to celebrate what God wants

 

[MoreCoffee]

Imitators of Him. It is His Faith. You make it sound like the faith of the Bible is unacceptable. IT is a what God gave on Mount Sinai. It is what Yeshua followed His whole life, justifying His purity, His Life, His Way, His Truth. If you can not see Yeshua in the old testament then how can you justify Him in the new testament?

Jesus came both to save sinners and to set the faithful free from the burden of the Law. The holy scriptures testify to this repeatedly. I gave the references once before in a post in another thread. Here they are again: Rom 13:8,9 & 3:21 & 7:6 & 13:8 & 13:10, 2 Cor 3:5,6 & 3:13,16 - Gal.2:12 & 3:2,3 & 3:5 & 3:10 & 3:11 & 3:19 & 3:23 & 3:24,25 & 4:31 & 5:2 & 5:3,4 & 5:18 - Eph 2:15 & 3:4,5 - Phil.3:8,9 - Col.2:14 & 2:16 & 2:20, Heb.8:7,8 & 10:20.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have reached the point I don't care if they ever see it for they reject all of it and think they are right. I will let them be right in their own eyes and let God sort it out when they meet Him. I would like to be standing there when they say you didn't really mean that for anyone but the Jews right? What a surprise they will get especially when they will be forced to celebrate what God wants

Dreams of self justification are not a good measure of the truth.

 

[psalms 91]

Dreams of self justification are not a good measure of the truth.

Neither is denying scripture

 

[MoreCoffee]

Neither is denying scripture

We are in agreement so why did you ignore/deny: Rom 13:8,9 & 3:21 & 7:6 & 13:8 & 13:10, 2 Cor 3:5,6 & 3:13,16 - Gal.2:12 & 3:2,3 & 3:5 & 3:10 & 3:11 & 3:19 & 3:23 & 3:24,25 & 4:31 & 5:2 & 5:3,4 & 5:18 - Eph 2:15 & 3:4,5 - Phil.3:8,9 - Col.2:14 & 2:16 & 2:20, Heb.8:7,8 & 10:20.

 

[psalms 91]

We are in agreement so why did you ignore/deny: Rom 13:8,9 & 3:21 & 7:6 & 13:8 & 13:10, 2 Cor 3:5,6 & 3:13,16 - Gal.2:12 & 3:2,3 & 3:5 & 3:10 & 3:11 & 3:19 & 3:23 & 3:24,25 & 4:31 & 5:2 & 5:3,4 & 5:18 - Eph 2:15 & 3:4,5 - Phil.3:8,9 - Col.2:14 & 2:16 & 2:20, Heb.8:7,8 & 10:20.

Why do you ignore God saying forever? It doesnt change

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why do you ignore God saying forever? It doesn't change

I do not ignore it, I examine it in its context and see it is about the old covenant and the people under it. That covenant had signs and among the signs in it was the weekly Sabbath and the feasts which were signs to separate Israel from the surrounding nations - see Exodus 31:13, 17, Ezekiel 20:12 and surrounding verses.

 

[psalms 91]

God did not say until nor did John in Revelation and unless God has a different definition forever does not mean only till the new covenant

 

[MoreCoffee]

God did not say until nor did John in Revelation and unless God has a different definition forever does not mean only till the new covenant

The Apocalypse of saint John the divine does not teach that the faithful are to obey the commandments given through Moses. The faithful are under a new covenant with new commandments. The holy scriptures say:

(John 13:34) A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

(1 John 2:7-8) Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

(2 John 1:5) And now I beg you, lady, not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.​

 

[psalms 91]

The Apocalypse of saint John the divine does not teach that the faithful are to obey the commandments given through Moses. The faithful are under a new covenant with new commandments. The holy scriptures say:

(John 13:34) A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

(1 John 2:7-8) Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

(2 John 1:5) And now I beg you, lady, not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.​

We are not talking the ten commandments although they are still there and covered with the two that were given in the new. We are talking feasts, the ones God has said to keep eternally

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Apocalypse of saint John the divine does not teach that the faithful are to obey the commandments given through Moses. The faithful are under a new covenant with new commandments. The holy scriptures say:

(John 13:34) A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

(1 John 2:7-8) Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

(2 John 1:5) And now I beg you, lady, not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.​

We are not talking the ten commandments although they are still there and covered with the two that were given in the new. We are talking feasts, the ones God has said to keep eternally

Ten commandments? I said "The Apocalypse of saint John the divine does not teach that the faithful are to obey the commandments given through Moses". Technically the ten commandments were not given through Moses because God spoke them himself from the mountain and the people trembled in fear at the sound of God's voice. However the feast days were commanded through Moses. You appear to have misunderstood what I wrote. Let me reiterate. The Christian faithful are under a new covenant with new commandments. The new commandment is the one that the Christian faithful have had from the beginning of their life in Christ and that commandment is that we love one another. It mentions no feasts.

 

[Alithis]

yikes John was not divine , just a man like any of us ..(except womans he wasn't like a woman he was just a man ..you know.. a regular person not divine in any way manner at all.. just pointing it out .. you sneak these little falsehoods in form time to time .. ..ok back to the topic

 

[MoreCoffee]

yikes John was not divine ,

divine meaning theologian, sorry that i used the word in a way with which you're not familiar.

just a man like any of us ..(except womans he wasn't like a woman he was just a man ..you know.. a regular person not divine in any way manner at all.. just pointing it out .. you sneak these little falsehoods in form time to time .. ..ok back to the topic

yes, lets get back to the topic. how about replying to the rest of my post now that you have had an answer about the word 'divine'.

 

[psalms 91]

Ten commandments? I said "The Apocalypse of saint John the divine does not teach that the faithful are to obey the commandments given through Moses". Technically the ten commandments were not given through Moses because God spoke them himself from the mountain and the people trembled in fear at the sound of God's voice. However the feast days were commanded through Moses. You appear to have misunderstood what I wrote. Let me reiterate. The Christian faithful are under a new covenant with new commandments. The new commandment is the one that the Christian faithful have had from the beginning of their life in Christ and that commandment is that we love one another. It mentions no feasts.

It doesnt mention a lot of things, doesnt mean they are not there. When God says forever I believe He means it/ When He says it will be in the millenial then I believe that as well

 

[Josiah]

Justification mandates that we be PERFECT. "You must be perfect as God is perfect" (Matthew 5:48), that we be HOLY exactly as God Himself is holy. "Be holy as God is holy" (Leviticus 20:26, 1 Peter 1:16). The LAW demands such. I have never ignored the Law or watered it down. The Law demands absolute, perfect righteousness and love from conception to death with NO exceptions in thought, word or deed. And if you desire to strip Christianity of Christ and the Gospel.... if you desire to strip Scirpture of grace and mercy... if you desire to eliminate the Cross, the Blood, the Lamb.... then yup, you are absolutely correct: either you are PERFECT and HOLY as God Himself or you are not. Pretty simple.


Of course, you have this reality (over and over and over): "Everyone sins" (First John 3:4), "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned" (Romans 3:23). Thus, if you chose Option B (looking in the mirror rather than the Cross, appointing SELF the Savior rather than Jesus) then what you see and rely upon is a sinner. Not a Savior. "By works shall no one be justified" (Galatians 2:16), "If justification were through our keeping the law then Christ died for no purpose" (Galatians 2:21). "No one will be justified in God's sight by works (Romans 3:20).


But I disagree with you that two books of the Bible have done that (the two books being Matthew and Revelation). I think those books DO include another truth - the Gospel. Mercy. Unconditional love. Forgiveness. Salvation. Justification (narrow). "Being found IN CHRIST, not having a righteousness of my own" (Philippians 3:9). "Christ saved us not because of deeds done by us but because of His own mercy" (Titus 3:5).


Being a Christian, I believe Christ is the Savior (and thus, I'm not. Not now, not ever. Not fully, not partly). "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus" (Romans 6:23). "For by grace you have been saved because of faith, and this is not your own doing but it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).


Now... of course, those who are justified (narrow sense), who thus are Christians.... still have the Law. Not the watered down stuff legalist substitute so that they can claim to fulfill it and thus pat self on the back and belittle Jesus and the Cross, but the real Law. PERFECTION. Perfect righteousness, perfect love. And yes, while Christians do not fulfill that Law (SAINT Paul calls himself the "CHIEF of sinners"), while Christians stand in constant, contineous NEED of MERCY, nonetheless, morality (albeit not perfect) and love (albeit not perfect) ARE to be marks of a Christian.


However, having the MARKS of who IS Christian is not how one becomes a Christian - it is the marks of one who IS Christian. "'For God is at work in you (CHRISTIANS, JUSTIFIED ONES), both to will and to work for God's good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). "Not that I'm perfect but I press on because Christ has made me His own" (Philippians 3:12-14) So yes, becoming a Christian doesn't eliminate the Law - but we are not looking in the mirror for justified but to the Cross, we are not relying on our absolute, constant perfection for justification but to mercy, to the Blood.


I agree.... justification does not eliminate the law, but nor does the law eliminate justification. It's Law AND Gospel. But not both watered down with oceans of water, then confused, entangled, twisted, blended so that neither is either just we just have exited Christianity and have embraced a form of Islam. Or returned to the Pharisical Judaism of Jesus' day. CHRISTIANS are those who look to the Cross, to Mercy, to the Blood of the Lamb for justification, who embrace and trust in the GOSPEL (and yes, the two books you reference DO embrace that). And they do not forsake the Law, they "press on to make perfection our own" - perfect holiness, perfect righeousness, perfect love. But we don't rely on SELF for our justification ("If we could keep the law then Christ died for no purpose"), we trust in Christ.... the Savior, the Lamb, the Cross, the Blood.... mercy, grace, forgiveness, love.





Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

to know what is right and not do it is sin .

There is sin even if we don't know. If you are not PERFECT just as God is then you are a sinner (Matthew 5:48). Whether you know it or not. If you are not holy exactly as God is then you are a sinner. Whether you know it or not. If you do not love all people in the same way and to the same extent that Jesus loved on the Cross then you are a sinner. Whether you know it or not. Of course (quite understandably), the Bible insists that ALL are sinners.

I fundamentally disagree with your soteriology that we are the savior of ourselves by becoming perfect, holy, all-loving and that Scripture is wrong when it insists that Christians are sinners (and thus NOT what God requires). We are not justifed by our perfect obedience (thus rendering Jesus a joke), we are justified by GOD - via His MERCY, unconditional love, forgiveness..... by CHRIST, by the Blood, by the Cross. Not by self being perfect, holy, all-loving making self the Savior of Self and Jesus a joke. "Everyone sins" (First John 3:4), "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned" (Romans 3:23). Thus, if you chose Option B (looking in the mirror rather than the Cross, appointing SELF the Savior rather than Jesus) then what you see and rely upon is a sinner. Not a Savior. "By works shall no one be justified" (Galatians 2:16), "If justification were through our keeping the law then Christ died for no purpose" (Galatians 2:21). "No one will be justified in God's sight by works (Romans 3:20). Rather, in stead of that, in sharp contrast with that, Scripture says: "Being found IN CHRIST, not having a righteousness of my own" (Philippians 3:9). "Christ saved us not because of deeds done by us but rather because of His own mercy" (Titus 3:5).




Thank you.


Pax



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

It doesnt mention a lot of things, doesnt mean they are not there. When God says forever I believe He means it/ When He says it will be in the millenial then I believe that as well

The commandment to keep the passover involved killing a year old lamb and eating after sundown. The people eating were to stand up and have bitter herbs with the lamb. The whole of the lamb had to be consumed before sunrise. Is that how you keep passover?

 

[psalms 91]

Of course not doesnt mean that it shouldnt be kept now does it, although I do eat standing up and on Passover eve juts dont throw out the lamb

 

[visionary]

The commandment to keep the passover involved killing a year old lamb and eating after sundown. The people eating were to stand up and have bitter herbs with the lamb. The whole of the lamb had to be consumed before sunrise. Is that how you keep passover?

Passover for gentiles....
Ex 12:43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Are you circumcised in the heart?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The commandment to keep the passover involved killing a year old lamb and eating after sundown. The people eating were to stand up and have bitter herbs with the lamb. The whole of the lamb had to be consumed before sunrise. Is that how you keep passover?

Of course not doesnt mean that it shouldnt be kept now does it, although I do eat standing up and on Passover eve juts dont throw out the lamb

Passover for gentiles....
Ex 12:43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Are you circumcised in the heart?

You say "of course not" when asked if you keep the feast according to the commandments given through Moses regarding the way the feast was to be kept. Yes, of course no one keeps the feasts as commanded. No one can. There is no sacrifice and no temple in which to make it and no Aaronic priests to offer it on behalf of the people. No one can keep the feasts. It is all a pretence to say "we keep the feasts of God according to the Law" because no one does and no one can it is impossible. It is a deception to say "we keep the feasts" and worse that a deception to demand that others join in the pretended feasts.

 

[psalms 91]

You say "of course not" when asked if you keep the feast according to the commandments given through Moses regarding the way the feast was to be kept. Yes, of course no one keeps the feasts as commanded. No one can. There is no sacrifice and no temple in which to make it and no Aaronic priests to offer it on behalf of the people. No one can keep the feasts. It is all a pretence to say "we keep the feasts of God according to the Law" because no one does and no one can it is impossible. It is a deception to say "we keep the feasts" and worse that a deception to demand that others join in the pretended feasts.

Wrong, again no matter in what manner our hearts keep them, they are kept to the best of our ability, it is you who decieve by saying God didnt mean it for us when He said it