Is it immoral for a Christian to eat pork?

MoreCoffee

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In the old covenant Israelites were forbidden to eat pig meat and numerous other land animal, aquatic animal, and bird meats. I like bacon. It is very tasty. I eat it occasionally. Is eating bacon or any of the other meats forbidden in the old testament immoral for a Christian?
 

psalms 91

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No according to God. Is it more healthy to avoid, of course it is.
 

MoreCoffee

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Josiah

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Pig is a nice sweet meat.
 

psalms 91

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they are scavangers, not to mention triginosis
 

MoreCoffee

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they are scavangers, not to mention triginosis

Google it and see how many cases occur in the USA bacon eating capital of the world :p
 

psalms 91

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lol I like bacon as well, just not really healthy for me or anyone else
 

MoreCoffee

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pinacled

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Who would want to return to the mire. Reminds me of the prodigal son. Spiritual Egypt in all it's corruption chases after Moses and Gods chosen. Swine drowned in the sea Yet the legion has returned in the form of a beast. And on the back of Egypt the whore of Babylon rides.
So where's the false prophet?
 

Alithis

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of course it is not immoral for a chrsitian to eat it

and yes pork bacon is yum.. and yes , it is not the most healthy meat to eat
and yes .. moderation is wise .

why was the question asked ?
 

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In the old covenant Israelites were forbidden to eat pig meat and numerous other land animal, aquatic animal, and bird meats. I like bacon. It is very tasty. I eat it occasionally. Is eating bacon or any of the other meats forbidden in the old testament immoral for a Christian?

I'll put it this way...

God sets laws for the good of the people. It is done for love's sake. No hearer and doer of these laws will ever risk getting a variety of toxins or parasites that come specifically from unclean meat according to Torah.

It's possible that because of farming practices in certain areas of the world a person can sail through eating certain unclean meats on occasion or even regularly, the risk may be minimized somewhat - but it is still there. If such a person chooses to take the risk for the sake of the taste - then that is up to them.

My answer to your question is: The law regarding this is moral.
 

MoreCoffee

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I'll put it this way...

God sets laws for the good of the people. It is done for love's sake. No hearer and doer of these laws will ever risk getting a variety of toxins or parasites that come specifically from unclean meat according to Torah.

It's possible that because of farming practices in certain areas of the world a person can sail through eating certain unclean meats on occasion or even regularly, the risk may be minimized somewhat - but it is still there. If such a person chooses to take the risk for the sake of the taste - then that is up to them.

My answer to your question is: The law regarding this is moral.

Technically you ought not to be answering a question addressed to Christians, right? Being a deist as you're faith icon indicates. Seems that since you are not a Christian you can't really claim to be speaking for Christians or Christianity.

Nevertheless you make the point that God gives good things to his people and that God gave the Law to Moses and through him to the people of Israel. You reason that since God gives good things the Law's provisions against eating pork, shell fish, and meats from a number of land, sea, and avian animals he must have given them for good reasons. You conclude that among the good reasons must be some things about health and avoidance of disease. And your reasoning along those lines is shared with Seventh Day Adventists (who do identify as Christians). Thus you conclude that avoidance of the meats prohibited in the law is a moral obligation.

I respond by observing that the laws against the meats mentioned never claim to be moral laws and keeping them is not specifically said to be a health measure. So, even though the reasoning appears to be sound it is not. Your reasoning is based on opinions rather than on clear and explicit teaching in the holy scriptures. The Church has never regarded the laws regarding diet and the rules regarding what is a clean food and what is not as moral laws nor as obligations placed upon Christians. I would stop here since what I have said is sufficient in itself to answer what you've proposed. But I will add this observation. Under the new covenant the prohibitions on unclean foods are lifted explicitly in The Acts of the Apostles and in the Gospel according to Mark. You have previously said that you do not count these books as inspired and so it seems that what is written in them will not play a major role in your religion but for Christians (to whom this thread is addressed) those books are accounted s inspired and their teaching is important.
 
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Stravinsk

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Technically you ought not to be answering a question addressed to Christians, right? Being a deist as you're faith icon indicates. Seems that since you are not a Christian you can't really claim to be speaking for Christians or Christianity.

Which is why I answered why I did. The law regarding unclean and clean meats is moral.

If a Christian thinks that Yeshua did away with this law, and taught something else, then the Messiah they imagine is not the same one spoken of in the law and prophets. Yes, I identify as Deist. I don't feel the need to claim a Christian title - especially because most Christians I come across are really not followers or respecters of Yeshua. They hold Saul/Paul and his writings in much higher esteem.

Nevertheless you make the point that God gives good things to his people and that God gave the Law to Moses and through him to the people of Israel. You reason that since God gives good things the Law's provisions against eating pork, shell fish, and meats from a number of land, sea, and avian animals he must have given them for good reasons. You conclude that among the good reasons must be some things about health and avoidance of disease. And your reasoning along those lines is shared with Seventh Day Adventists (who do identify as Christians). Thus you conclude that avoidance of the meats prohibited in the law is a moral obligation.

Seventh Day Adventists hold Saul/Paul as an apostle and trust the Canon of New Testament as being wholly inspired as a matter of doctrine. I do not.

I didn't say anything about anyone's obligation. I said the law was moral, and it is. It is as moral for the Hindu, Muslim, Christian or anyone else as it is for the Jew. It is moral not only by decree but can also be determined such through reasoning. If you don't like it, that is not my problem. If your Church teaches different, then your Church is teaching error.

Here's a question for you:

Would you feed a child raw pork? How about raw chicken?

If someone worked in childcare, and a child got violently sick because the childcare worker fed them either of these meats raw, then that childcare worker could face the law, possibly jail and maybe even manslaughter charges if the child died.

Yes, it is ABSOLUTELY a moral law. Having the meat cooked and sourced from a reliable farmer greatly lessons the risk - but it does not completely eliminate it.


I respond by observing that the laws against the meats mentioned never claim to be moral laws and keeping them is not specifically said to be a health measure. So, even though the reasoning appears to be sound it is not. Your reasoning is based on opinions rather than on clear and explicit teaching in the holy scriptures.

Then you are deceived. There is also a law regarding eating of blood. When's the last time you had a CLEAN meat - Chicken - raw? No? Why not? Because you'll get sick? Exactly. The same applies to cooked unclean meats - the only difference is that western farming practices lesson the risks to having sickness be a possibility rather than a certainty. That is, when they are practiced.

The Church has never regarded the laws regarding diet and the rules regarding what is a clean food and what is not as moral laws nor as obligations placed upon Christians. I would stop here since what I have said is sufficient in itself to answer what you've proposed. But I will add this observation. Under the new covenant the prohibitions on unclean foods are lifted explicitly in The Acts of the Apostles and in the Gospel according to Mark. You have previously said that you do not count these books as inspired and so it seems that what is written in them will not play a major role in your religion but for Christians (to whom this thread is addressed) those books are accounted s inspired and their teaching is important.

"The Church" - you mean the Catholic Church? It isn't the only religious organization around and I don't see it as any kind of authority on morals or Christianity in particular.

Not that I accept Acts as completely reliable - but the passage you speak of (the dream) is representative, not literal. The context is made clear just a few verses later when the dream is interpreted and any honest reading of it makes it clear that food is used as a symbol only. If not, then God is instructing Peter to eat Cornelius, which is ridiculous. A reading of Acts 10:28-29 should show this clearly.

Regarding "Mark" - the passage you refer to is a note by the author or a scribe. Mark is not an Apostle of Yeshua. But, even if it WAS completely inspired - the passage does not proclaim pork to be a food. It says "all foods are clean". Pork, vulture, shellfish and other unclean meats are never declared to be "food" - that is solely a tradition of various cultures, neither doctrine of Torah, nor of Mark, nor of Acts, nor of either of the 2 real disciples of Yeshua.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Which is why I answered why I did. The law regarding unclean and clean meats is moral.

If a Christian thinks that Yeshua did away with this law, and taught something else, then the Messiah they imagine is not the same one spoken of in the law and prophets. Yes, I identify as Deist. I don't feel the need to claim a Christian title - especially because most Christians I come across are really not followers or respecters of Yeshua. They hold Saul/Paul and his writings in much higher esteem.



Seventh Day Adventists hold Saul/Paul as an apostle and trust the Canon of New Testament as being wholly inspired as a matter of doctrine. I do not.

I didn't say anything about anyone's obligation. I said the law was moral, and it is. It is as moral for the Hindu, Muslim, Christian or anyone else as it is for the Jew. It is moral not only by decree but can also be determined such through reasoning. If you don't like it, that is not my problem. If your Church teaches different, then your Church is teaching error.

Here's a question for you:

Would you feed a child raw pork? How about raw chicken?

If someone worked in childcare, and a child got violently sick because the childcare worker fed them either of these meats raw, then that childcare worker could face the law, possibly jail and maybe even manslaughter charges if the child died.

Yes, it is ABSOLUTELY a moral law. Having the meat cooked and sourced from a reliable farmer greatly lessons the risk - but it does not completely eliminate it.




Then you are deceived. There is also a law regarding eating of blood. When's the last time you had a CLEAN meat - Chicken - raw? No? Why not? Because you'll get sick? Exactly. The same applies to cooked unclean meats - the only difference is that western farming practices lesson the risks to having sickness be a possibility rather than a certainty. That is, when they are practiced.



"The Church" - you mean the Catholic Church? It isn't the only religious organization around and I don't see it as any kind of authority on morals or Christianity in particular.

Not that I accept Acts as completely reliable - but the passage you speak of (the dream) is representative, not literal. The context is made clear just a few verses later when the dream is interpreted and any honest reading of it makes it clear that food is used as a symbol only. If not, then God is instructing Peter to eat Cornelius, which is ridiculous. A reading of Acts 10:28-29 should show this clearly.

Regarding "Mark" - the passage you refer to is a note by the author or a scribe. Mark is not an Apostle of Yeshua. But, even if it WAS completely inspired - the passage does not proclaim pork to be a food. It says "all foods are clean". Pork, vulture, shellfish and other unclean meats are never declared to be "food" - that is solely a tradition of various cultures, neither doctrine of Torah, nor of Mark, nor of Acts, nor of either of the 2 real disciples of Yeshua.

:pop2:

Can't say that your reply contains anything unanticipated nor anything that is not repetition of your previous assertions nor anything that is significant for Christians.
 

TurtleHare

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I am not an Israelite living in the age without refrigeration so it is easy to see why God gave them those laws as he was building up his people and making them strong to be fruitful and multiply. I like pig but shellfish is really nasty tasting I think so I avoid it only because of taste.
 

MoreCoffee

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I am not an Israelite living in the age without refrigeration so it is easy to see why God gave them those laws as he was building up his people and making them strong to be fruitful and multiply. I like pig but shellfish is really nasty tasting I think so I avoid it only because of taste.

It's hard to grasp why any professing Christian would want to be bound by old covenant dietary rules or why any would want to keep the old covenant feasts that the holy scriptures explain as signs, shadows, and types that have lost their purpose since the reality to which they pointed is revealed. Like you, I am not too keen on shell fish but I do like bacon :)
 

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It's hard to grasp why any professing Christian would want to be bound by old covenant dietary rules or why any would want to keep the old covenant feasts that the holy scriptures explain as signs, shadows, and types that have lost their purpose since the reality to which they pointed is revealed. Like you, I am not too keen on shell fish but I do like bacon :)

Whether you believe it or not, those who teach this and follow it (I admit I am not perfect in this area, but it is worth the effort to keep trying) - do so because we understand and do not ignore the reality. A long time ago - some 4-5 years or so, I had mentioned this numerous times at the other place. A regular at that time (she's gone now or using a new name) posted to the same area of that board and mentioned she got shellfish poisoning. If my memory serves me, this person lived in a Western Country.

You can call it "old covenant" or irrelevant or whatever you think your religion tells you, but the reality is that it's not. People enjoy some protection if they live in countries where strict farming guidelines are practiced - but they aren't fail safe and people still develop sickness and infestations from eating pork and shellfish.

Most Christians will readily point to Mark and Acts without even considering the contexts and use it as proof texts. This is intellectually dishonest. As equally intellectually dishonest as failing to consider where Yeshua sent the demons he drove out in one exorcism - into a herd of swine.
 

Stravinsk

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Edit: Double post
 
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MoreCoffee

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...

You can call it "old covenant"

The holy scriptures call it "old covenant". Here's an example: "But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away." (2 Corinthians 3:14)

or irrelevant

The holy scriptures call the old covenant abolished. I showed that before in this verse: "He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, so that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace," (Ephesians 2:15)


or whatever you think

It isn't merely an opinion that I happen to hold it is what the holy scriptures explicitly state. You happen to reject those holy scriptures so you reach whatever conclusions suit.

your religion tells you

It is what my religion tells me because it is what Christ taught and what the apostles transmitted as the teaching of Christ. You reject many of the teachings of Christ because you reject the holy scriptures that contain them. That is more a matter of your religion being divergent from Christianity than it is a peculiarity of my religion. The truth is that every Christian Church and virtually every Christian denomination and group rejects the dietary laws of the old covenant because they were abrogated.

, but the reality is that it's not. People enjoy some protection if they live in countries where strict farming guidelines are practiced - but they aren't fail safe and people still develop sickness and infestations from eating pork and shellfish.

Yes, and also from eating finned fish, vegetables, grains, fruit, and all manner of foods. Your argument is highly biased by selectivity in the claims you advance. Sure one can be infected by various pathogens by eating almost any food. That is why the condition is called food poisoning rather than pork & shell fish poisoning.

Most Christians will readily point to Mark and Acts without even considering the contexts and use it as proof texts. This is intellectually dishonest. As equally intellectually dishonest as failing to consider where Yeshua sent the demons he drove out in one exorcism - into a herd of swine.

Your final observation is strange when one considers that other demons were cast out in the holy scriptures and did not infect pigs. In at least one case the Lord spoke of demons wandering looking for a home. Using the kind of interpretation you've advanced we ought to be careful of wildernesses. "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." (Matthew 4:1) "'When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it wanders through waterless regions looking for a resting-place, but it finds none. Then it says, "I will return to my house from which I came." When it comes, it finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and live there; and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So will it be also with this evil generation.'" (Matthew 12:43-45)

I am glad that few exegetes would offer such an absurd doctrine built on so inadequate a foundation as the one you've used.
 
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